Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 A pard on the SASS Wire suggested I post here, as apparently a number of my Canadian fellow CAS shooters are enamored with the saloon girls here and so hang out here a fair bit. I am returning to CAS and SASS after a decade and a half absence, and have found I am having trouble finding some of the necessary tools and supplies, due to the post-COVID supply line issues and the Canadian Federal Government's aggressive efforts to dissuade us Canadians from shooting at all. My biggest problem right now is .357 Magnum 158g bullets. I had a lot fo trouble finding any, so when I did actually find a Hornady bullet that I could find more than randomly (Hornady's part no. 10408 "Frontier" swaged (very soft) SWC bullet which Hornady advertises as ideal for SASS CAS), I bought several boxes. Unfortunately, I found that Hornady lied. First, it appears that both of my Cimarron Model P revolvers do not shoot it very accurately. Even more distressing is that Hornady never mentions anywhere that a SWC bullet will not feed in an 1873 replica rifle. A pard on The Wire alerted me to that yesterday, and I tested that with dummy rounds, and he was correct. That bullet will not feed in the rifle! So, now with only a month or so before shooting season, I find myself with more of this bullet than I want to have, and NO alternative yet that has reliable availability in decent quantities that would allow me to safely buy SOME, test in both the revolvers and the rifle, and then hopefully be able to buy a much larger longterm reliable supply. And since shipping bullets by mail is SO costly here in Canada, the reliable source should preferably be not too far from where I live, which is in Lethbridge, Alberta. Can any Canadian here in the saloon recommend a continuously reliable bullet supplier who can provide a high quality 158g bullets that WILL feed reliably in a Uberti 1873 replica rifle, shoot accurately from my revolvers, and ship from a location not too far from Lethbridge, Alberta? If so, please post here or PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 Can they be shipped in from the US ? Or is that illegal for you there? Here in the US the postal service has if it fits it ships boxes. I’m sure they hate the cast bullet manufacturers. It’s actually quite affordable for the weight you’re shipping. You could contact Scarlett and see if she ships to Canada https://bulletsbyscarlett.com/shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 https://www.rustywood.ca/shop_home/reloading-pistol-bullets/ https://omaproducts.com/price-list https://prairieprojectiles.ca/projectiles.php http://wolfbullets.com/projecti.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Buckshot Bob said: Can they be shipped in from the US ? Or is that illegal for you there? Here in the US the postal service has if it fits it ships boxes. I’m sure they hate the cast bullet manufacturers. It’s actually quite affordable for the weight you’re shipping. You could contact Scarlett and see if she ships to Canada https://bulletsbyscarlett.com/shop I checked with my very experienced shooter friend and he tells me that it is not legal for normal Canadian citizens to have bullets shipped directly to them. They must be imported by licensed importers. Interestingly, he also told me that some U.S. laws, even some STATE versus Federal laws, make EXport illegal. And, I know from prior inquiries that Canadian dealers are not allowed to EXport firearms-related items either without a special license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Cholla said: https://www.rustywood.ca/shop_home/reloading-pistol-bullets/ https://omaproducts.com/price-list https://prairieprojectiles.ca/projectiles.php http://wolfbullets.com/projecti.htm Thanks, Cholla, for the links. I'll try them. My experienced Canadian buddy also mentioned Oma. He says I might need to call a number of suppliers to find one that can (a) provide a small initial quantity (100 to 200 bullets) for testing in both the 2 revolvers and the rifle, but then also (b) provide a reliable ONGOING supply. He reminded me that the ongoing reliable supply once you have invested the time and effort to develop a good handload is the key, not the initial random availability that some suppliers might offer. And as the Hornady pn 10408 experience illustrates, some suppliers make untrue claims that sound good but don't translate to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Cholla said: https://www.rustywood.ca/shop_home/reloading-pistol-bullets/ https://omaproducts.com/price-list https://prairieprojectiles.ca/projectiles.php http://wolfbullets.com/projecti.htm I checked out all 4. Prairie Projectiles does not offer a 158g RNFP. Oma has a 3 week leadtime at best (no stock apaprently) and also 50% deposit requirement and its prices are VERY high. Rusty Wood and Wolf Bullets are possibilities. Both highlight their Cowboy bullets. I have emailed both about availability and pricing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 A 125gr. TCFP (truncated cone flat point) will work well for CAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 If you are only reloading for SASS, you are way overthinking this. Before I started casting my own, I used whatever lead bullets I could find at gun shows. As long as they could feed, they went down range. SASS distances are around seven yards or less, usually less. If you were shooting in NCOWS, you would need to be more exacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 Contact your local SASS club, and see what information they can provide for suppliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said: A 125gr. TCFP (truncated cone flat point) will work well for CAS. Eyesa: For SURE in a Uberti 1873 replica rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Contact your local SASS club, and see what information they can provide for suppliers. Did so today! I'll see what they reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said: Eyesa: For SURE in a Uberti 1873 replica rifle? Absolutely. That's all I've been using for a dozen years. Adding on, I and most of us use .38 Special cases as they're easier to come by and less expensive than .357 mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 I received an interesting reply from one of the Canadian bullet suppliers: that I was referred to " Anyway yes, we can supply you with bullets on a regular consistent basis. We use lab grade alloy that is chemically consistent. It has a hardness of 12 BNH specifically for cowboy action shooting. I would recommend you use our 130gr RNFP 38 bullet as it is the BEST and most popular for C.A.S. especially in combo use of revolvers and 1873 rifles. We can however provide you with the 158gr RNFP bullet if you prefer but the 130gr will cycle far better in your rifle. " The comment on the 130g "cycling far better in your rifle" is interesting. WHY would a 130g RNFP cycle better than a 158g RNFP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: . . . I and most of us use .38 Special cases as they're easier to come by and less expensive than .357 mag. I have a realy good supply of .357 Magnum cases, in both brass and nickeled brass, so I am set there. If I have to laod 2 different bullets for the revolvers and the rifle, I'll probably do the pistol cartridges with brass cases and the rifle ones with nickel cases, to help me avoid mixing up the two when loading on the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 18 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said: I have a realy good supply of .357 Magnum cases, in both brass and nickeled brass, so I am set there. If I have to laod 2 different bullets for the revolvers and the rifle, I'll probably do the pistol cartridges with brass cases and the rifle ones with nickel cases, to help me avoid mixing up the two when loading on the firing line. Switch that around as nickel cases are more likely to split than regular brass. A split case in your rifle can ruin your day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 31 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said: The comment on the 130g "cycling far better in your rifle" is interesting. WHY would a 130g RNFP cycle better than a 158g RNFP? It is mostly bullet shape and OAL that’s going to determine feeding. You might also investigate if anyone sells Hi-Tek coated bullets. While not necessary it sure cuts down on clean up time. https://www.theballisticassistant.com/hi-tek-coating-cast-bullets/ Also how often do you travel to the USA ? Is it legal for you to purchase them at a gunshop or show and bring them back as an individual? I’m not encouraging you to break the law, but it’s just lead. It’s admittedly been at least 15 years since I’ve been to Canada hunting and when we did they we’re concerned about the guns we were bringing but I don’t remember them being interested in what kind or how much ammunition we had. Also if you enjoy reloading have you ever considered casting your own ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: Switch that around as nickel cases are more likely to split than regular brass. A split case in your rifle can ruin your day. Ah, something else I did not know. Yes, I'll switch that around to nickel in the handguns, brass in the rifle! Thanks for the preventative advice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 28, 2023 Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said: It is mostly bullet shape and OAL that’s going to determine feeding. You might also investigate if anyone sells Hi-Tek coated bullets. While not necessary it sure cuts down on clean up time. https://www.theballisticassistant.com/hi-tek-coating-cast-bullets/ Also how often do you travel to the USA ? Is it legal for you to purchase them at a gunshop or show and bring them back as an individual? I’m not encouraging you to break the law, but it’s just lead. It’s admittedly been at least 15 years since I’ve been to Canada hunting and when we did they we’re concerned about the guns we were bringing but I don’t remember them being interested in what kind or how much ammunition we had. Also if you enjoy reloading have you ever considered casting your own ? Thanks fr the response on the bullet shape and COAL. I am assuming that if I stick to the 1.580" to 1.590" COAL range for a cartidge loaded in .357 Magnum cases, I won't go seriously wrong? The legality of buying, picking up, and bringing in bullets myself, in person, purchased from a U.S. source through a border crossing back into Canada is, per my experienced friend, gray and risky. he says that some U.S. states, and the U.S. Feds, speficially prohibit sale of ammuniiton or components for export. No one seems to know if the Canadian Customs and Border Services would see it as illegal to import a small quantity of bullets (what is "a small quantity" also) as a visitor to the US simply returning to Canada. BUT, here's the thing: Any firearm related transgression could have serious penalties and outcomes, including jeopardizing my license to even OWN ANY firearm (In Canada we need a Possession and Acquisiiton License - a "PAL") in order to even buy and possess ANY firearm, and the standards for a handgun are even tougher as the Federal Government here regards handguns as something they have already stopped allowing the purchase of, and they are trying hard to at best grandfather us current owners and at worst demand we turn them in. So, given the ambiguities and risks in even accidentally violating a U.S. or Canadian law, it makes no sense to think about a personal import. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said: Thanks fr the response on the bullet shape and COAL. I am assuming that if I stick to the 1.580" to 1.590" COAL range for a cartidge loaded in .357 Magnum cases, I won't go seriously wrong? As long as you have the same oal and bullet profile as what feeds well now you should be good to go. If any of the suppliers you find have sample pacs to try it may be worth trying something different. You may find something that works better. The 125 gr bullet in the link in the US is a very popular one , some people will even shoot 110 gr to reduce recoil and cost even more. https://bulletsbyscarlett.com/shop. 125 https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=335&category=20&secondary=17&keywords= 110 It’s too bad your government makes it hard to obtain something as simple as a lead bullet, unfortunately the government in the United States is trending the same direction. Hopefully some of the Canadians that frequent this forum will chime in when they see the thread, they can probably offer you more alternatives than us US citizens can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Mysterious Stranger said: I received an interesting reply from one of the Canadian bullet suppliers: that I was referred to " Anyway yes, we can supply you with bullets on a regular consistent basis. We use lab grade alloy that is chemically consistent. It has a hardness of 12 BNH specifically for cowboy action shooting. I would recommend you use our 130gr RNFP 38 bullet as it is the BEST and most popular for C.A.S. especially in combo use of revolvers and 1873 rifles. We can however provide you with the 158gr RNFP bullet if you prefer but the 130gr will cycle far better in your rifle. " The comment on the 130g "cycling far better in your rifle" is interesting. WHY would a 130g RNFP cycle better than a 158g RNFP? I say less recoil. Less recoil means you can get back on target faster. And the less lead used, the less it costs to buy. I have gone from 250 to 230 to 200 to 160 grains in .45 Colt. Less lead, less powder, less recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Mysterious Stranger said: I have a realy good supply of .357 Magnum cases, in both brass and nickeled brass, so I am set there. If I have to laod 2 different bullets for the revolvers and the rifle, I'll probably do the pistol cartridges with brass cases and the rifle ones with nickel cases, to help me avoid mixing up the two when loading on the firing line. Do just the opposite, brass in the rifle. Nickel will split and crack much sooner and you don't want that to happen in your rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 4 hours ago, Mysterious Stranger said: I received an interesting reply from one of the Canadian bullet suppliers: that I was referred to " Anyway yes, we can supply you with bullets on a regular consistent basis. We use lab grade alloy that is chemically consistent. It has a hardness of 12 BNH specifically for cowboy action shooting. I would recommend you use our 130gr RNFP 38 bullet as it is the BEST and most popular for C.A.S. especially in combo use of revolvers and 1873 rifles. We can however provide you with the 158gr RNFP bullet if you prefer but the 130gr will cycle far better in your rifle. " The comment on the 130g "cycling far better in your rifle" is interesting. WHY would a 130g RNFP cycle better than a 158g RNFP? Ask for a sample pack of 130 and 158 and see for yourownself. Bet they both work fine. You should really should consider the 130gn for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Plains Bullets Over In Sask. East of Medicine Hat... Bruce Shoots with the Porcupine Shadow Riders... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Ask for a sample pack of 130 and 158 and see for yourownself. Bet they both work fine. You should really should consider the 130gn for this game. None of the bullet seller websites i visited have shown sample packs. Is this something you have to normally just ASK for proactively? One of the websites I visited sold, it appeared, only by boxes of 1000, which would be pretty risky (what do you do with the bullets if they just don't work in your specific firerarms?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said: Plains Bullets Over In Sask. East of Medicine Hat... Bruce Shoots with the Porcupine Shadow Riders... Jabez Cowboy I heard from another Porcupine Shadow Riders member that Bruce has a health issue which will, or already has, forced suspension of his bullet business. Porcupine Shadow Riders is in fact the nearest SASS club to me geographically, so will be one of the places I will shoot at in addition to the local non-SASS club in Tabor. It's about 1-1/4 hours each way from my home. Porcupine Shadow Riders is also apparently the host for the 2023 Canadian Championship match, so I hope to get the chance to observe a lot of very capable SASS shooters in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 I'm about 7.5 Miles from the Shadow Riders Range, and have been a member there since it started... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Mysterious Stranger said: None of the bullet seller websites i visited have shown sample packs. Is this something you have to normally just ASK for proactively? One of the websites I visited sold, it appeared, only by boxes of 1000, which would be pretty risky (what do you do with the bullets if they just don't work in your specific firerarms?) Call them and ask..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 The 130 grainers feed better because the nose has a more tapered shape than the 158 grain bullets. Toggle link rifles (1860, 66, 73) will feed every bullet profile except WC and SWC. Marlins and 92 can be picky about which bullet profile a particular rifle will feed. Some will feed anything and others will have issues with certain bullet profiles. Your 73 will feed the 130 grain bullets just fine and in your pistols you'll have less felt recoil than you would with the 158 grain bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 32 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: The 130 grainers feed better because the nose has a more tapered shape than the 158 grain bullets. Toggle link rifles (1860, 66, 73) will feed every bullet profile except WC and SWC. Marlins and 92 can be picky about which bullet profile a particular rifle will feed. Some will feed anything and others will have issues with certain bullet profiles. Your 73 will feed the 130 grain bullets just fine and in your pistols you'll have less felt recoil than you would with the 158 grain bullets. That sounds good. I am emailing Canadian suppliers getting more info on what they offer and don't offer. One for example offers only a 158g RNFP, but claims to be selling lots of them to clubs. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am learning a lot more about cast and swaged lead bullets used in CAS. I had no idea for example that cast bullets not only tolerate more speed, but that they also REQUIRE more pressure to work correctly. In fact, one shooter on an S&W revolver forum quoted a supposed formula: Pressure required = Brinnel Number x 1400. IF that formula is real and accurate (I don't believe EVERYthing I read on a forum), then a cast bullet with BN of 12 , which sounds typical for cast CAS bullets, requires a handload that generates 16800 psi of pressure. On the other hand, I have learned that the Hornady no. 10408 I have been trying to use has a BN of only 5 (basically pure lead) or 6 at most, so that formula would prescribe a pressure of 5.5 x 1400 = only 7700. That sounds pretty low. Maybe that Hornady bullet is used by Bullseye shooters shooting VERY light loads?? What muzzle velocity for the 130g bullets seems to work best for most CAS revolvers and rifles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 27 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said: That sounds good. I am emailing Canadian suppliers getting more info on what they offer and don't offer. One for example offers only a 158g RNFP, but claims to be selling lots of them to clubs. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am learning a lot more about cast and swaged lead bullets used in CAS. I had no idea for example that cast bullets not only tolerate more speed, but that they also REQUIRE more pressure to work correctly. In fact, one shooter on an S&W revolver forum quoted a supposed formula: Pressure required = Brinnel Number x 1400. IF that formula is real and accurate (I don't believe EVERYthing I read on a forum), then a cast bullet with BN of 12 , which sounds typical for cast CAS bullets, requires a handload that generates 16800 psi of pressure. On the other hand, I have learned that the Hornady no. 10408 I have been trying to use has a BN of only 5 (basically pure lead) or 6 at most, so that formula would prescribe a pressure of 5.5 x 1400 = only 7700. That sounds pretty low. Maybe that Hornady bullet is used by Bullseye shooters shooting VERY light loads?? What muzzle velocity for the 130g bullets seems to work best for most CAS revolvers and rifles? 700 to 800 fps. Gives enough recoil in your pistols so that your reaction times will be faster. but not so much that it takes longer to acquire the sites for the next shot. Several years ago some of the top shooters fires thousands of rounds in search of the perfect pistol round. They discovered that once felt recoil dropped below a certain point that split times actually increased. IIRC the preferred load was a 130 gr bullet at about 750 fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: 700 to 800 fps. Gives enough recoil in your pistols so that your reaction times will be faster. but not so much that it takes longer to acquire the sites for the next shot. Several years ago some of the top shooters fires thousands of rounds in search of the perfect pistol round. They discovered that once felt recoil dropped below a certain point that split times actually increased. IIRC the preferred load was a 130 gr bullet at about 750 fps. 130g at 750 fps sounds good. With TiteGroup and a Federal SP REGULAR (not Magnum) primer, how much powder is typically liked by the revolvers and the rifle, in order to use the same load for both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 23 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said: 130g at 750 fps sounds good. With TiteGroup and a Federal SP REGULAR (not Magnum) primer, how much powder is typically liked by the revolvers and the rifle, in order to use the same load for both? Develop a load your pistol likes. What ever it is it will likely be accurate in your rifle as well. I don't shoot Titegroup in anything but 45 ACP so I cannot help with a starting load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=53 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious Stranger Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 Thank-you, Buckshot Bob! Wow, 922 fps with just 3.6g of TiteGroup, and still a modest pressure! Looks good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Mysterious Stranger said: 130g at 750 fps sounds good. With TiteGroup and a Federal SP REGULAR (not Magnum) primer, how much powder is typically liked by the revolvers and the rifle, in order to use the same load for both? About 3gr. with a 125gr. bullet depending on powder, but most are in that ballpark. I load Ellie's at 2.8gr. of Clays or Clay-Dot. Will be switching to Cleanshot this year at abt. the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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