Wolf shotshell primers.... Weak?

[Fretless]

11 minutes ago, Yohan said:

Won't see you at Oak Ridge next shoot I'll be at South Carolina State

I'll see you in SC.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

On 3/25/2023 at 6:54 PM, Fretless said:

Some of the wads didn't even clear the barrel.  A few left lingering flames in the barrel.

 

On 3/26/2023 at 6:07 PM, Fretless said:

Stack height, crimp, and the possibility that the powder load is positionally sensitive

 

Based on everything you have posted and some ideas from other shooters with similar problems my guess is that your powder charge is simply to light.  Kinda like guys with primers popping out on their wuss loaded revolver rounds.  Smokeless powders require a certain amount pressure to ignite and burn properly.  The position sensitive comment really raises a concern.  The wad does not have to have any signifcant amount of pressure on it but it should be seated on the powder.  Try bumping your powder charge up a grain and making sure the wad is seated on the powder.  To see what the wad is doing dump your powder charge and seat the wad but do not put any shot in the hull.  Take it out and stick a dowel or something else down into the hull and push on the wad.  If it moves there is your problem.

[Fretless]

Some things I've identified, and what I've improved:

 

I cut open a few hulls to see what's going on in there.  The wad seems to bottom out on the plastic base.  (Seen here with and without a primer)

 

The volume of powder that just barely fills that space up to the top of the plastic base is seen here

 

The bottom of the wad also has a hollow space

 

That volume of powder is seen here

 

For those who don't feel like doing the math, that significantly exceeds any load we would even be considering.  In fact, it means about 1/3 of that space is empty.  The wad does not sit on the powder.  To fill that space I would have to go from the 14.7 I had been using, to over 21gr.  That's not going to happen.

 

So this partially accounts for one of my problems, insufficient stack height.  To accompany that, farther reflection told me that my crimp isn't what it once was.  (Critical info inadvertently omitted).

 

When I put those two problems together, it starts to become apparent that a light load is likely only part of the problem.  Incomplete, or nearly non-existent, powder combustion is a sign of low pressure.

 

I worked methodically to adjust the precrimp, and then the final crimp.  I had been dropping just under 1oz of shot.  I raised that to 1.02 oz.  Just enough that the roll/precrimp could have something to snug up against [in spite of the actual wad sitting low in the hull].  This was an effort to increase the resistance and therefore the pressure.

 

That alone was not enough.  I ended up increasing the amount of powder as well.  15.4gr.  with the Noble primers it seems to be working nicely.  A full test at a match on Saturday will say for sure.  

 

Whether or not there is a difference between the different brands of primers (wolf and noble) is yet to be determined.

 

 

Note: I have absolutely no idea how I changed the text color part way through writing this post.

 

[Eyesa Horg]

54 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Some things I've identified, and what I've improved:

 

I cut open a few hulls to see what's going on in there.  The wad seems to bottom out on the plastic base.  (Seen here with and without a primer)

 

The volume of powder that just barely fills that space up to the top of the plastic base is seen here

 

The bottom of the wad also has a hollow space

 

That volume of powder is seen here

 

For those who don't feel like doing the math, that significantly exceeds any load we would even be considering.  In fact, it means about 1/3 of that space is empty.  The wad does not sit on the powder.  To fill that space I would have to go from the 14.7 I had been using, to over 21gr.  That's not going to happen.

 

So this partially accounts for one of my problems, insufficient stack height.  To accompany that, farther reflection told me that my crimp isn't what it once was.  (Critical info inadvertently omitted).

 

When I put those two problems together, it starts to become apparent that a light load is likely only part of the problem.  Incomplete, or nearly non-existent, powder combustion is a sign of low pressure.

 

I worked methodically to adjust the precrimp, and then the final crimp.  I had been dropping just under 1oz of shot.  I raised that to 1.02 oz.  Just enough that the roll/precrimp could have something to snug up against [in spite of the actual wad sitting low in the hull].  This was an effort to increase the resistance and therefore the pressure.

 

That alone was not enough.  I ended up increasing the amount of powder as well.  15.4gr.  with the Noble primers it seems to be working nicely.  A full test at a match on Saturday will say for sure.  

 

Whether or not there is a difference between the different brands of primers (wolf and noble) is yet to be determined.

 

 

Note: I have absolutely no idea how I changed the text color part way through writing this post.

 

You piqued my curiosity.

I repeated your quantity  test on a cut down AA hull. I finger pushed a CB-0178 hull in until it stopped and then filled to that level with Clay-Dot and got 1.1-1.2grs., the wad held 5.8grs. leveled with a card, for a max total of 7grs. And I think I may be a tad high on the base wad amount.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

As I have posted on several occassions despite what many people think shotgun primers are not freely interchangable.  Each brand has slightly different dimensions and burn rates.  Noble sports has, in fact, three different burn rates on their 209 primers.  The only reason SASS shooters get away with imprecise loading procedures is because we are using loads that are well below the minimum most powder manufacturers recommend.  Each reloading website and manual shows shotshell loads grouped by PRIMER BRAND and the loads are different from brand to brand.  Comparing Clay Dot to Titegroup is an example.  Clay Dot, Clays, Red Dot, etc. are large flaky low density powers that take up a lot of space in the hull.  Titegroup is a fine dense power and takes up far less space as the same weight of Clays or Red Dot.  What works for Clays will not work for Titegroup.  This is from the Noble website.  

 

Type 209/684 inox of low power for progressive powders;

Type 209/686 inox of medium power for medium powders;

Type 209/688 inox of high power for faster burning powders.

 

[Burn Through]

so if you raise your powder with this primer it works good ? and is the same fps ? or is it about like a trap load ? 

[Fretless]

2 minutes ago, Burn Through said:

so if you raise your powder with this primer it works good ? and is the same fps ? or is it about like a trap load ? 

I'll try to get it on a chronograph tomorrow or the next day.  I'll post the results.  

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Fretless, you’ll be miles ahead if you would buy a manual, read it from the beginning and then come here with questions. There are some fundamentals you’re missing which makes your diagnosis research a waste of time that’s leading you in the wrong direction. Online forums are a lousy place to learn reloading without those fundamentals in place first. 

[John E. Law]

On 3/25/2023 at 2:29 PM, Cholla said:

Perhaps they were not stored properly. I am not a fan of Wolf products but they go bang every time I pull the trigger. 

Except their 22LR. It's VERY good ammo. 

 

JEL

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

This is off the Claybusters website.  Notice anything?  All the powders are large flake powders and all are using far more powder than 14 or 15 grains of a very dense small grain powder.  Also notice the PSI for the bottom loads.  Very low.  So dropping even below those minimums is going to yield very poor results.

 

 

[Fretless]

9 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Also notice the PSI for the bottom loads.  Very low.  So dropping even below those minimums is going to yield very poor results.

And it did. Lol

 

You've also noted that shotgun primers are not all interchangeable.  That spoke directly to my original question, and what I've done in the last few days has farther illuminated that point.

 

The current load of 15.4gr seems to be working with the Noble primers, but not with the Wolf primers.  My original, even lighter, load was developed using federal 209 primers.  It is advised to reduce the load when switching from other primers to Federal in shotshells.  I have now reversed that procedure.

 

As for my atypical choice of powder, that's what was available.  I've been using it with good results for almost two years.  I ran out of the primers I was using, and the rest is in this thread.  I'm not currently in a position to go buy something else.  I probably will in the future.

 

Y'all have been more helpful than you realize, and @Abilene, SASS # 27489, I read "Modern Reloading, second edition".  Thanks for the push to do more than skim, or spot read.

[Fretless]

23 hours ago, Burn Through said:

so if you raise your powder with this primer it works good ? and is the same fps ? or is it about like a trap load ? 

Sorry.  Trying to Chrono a shotshell was producing crazy numbers that made no sense.  This load is lighter than a trap load.  

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

26 minutes ago, Fretless said:

...Y'all have been more helpful than you realize, and @Abilene, SASS # 27489, I read "Modern Reloading, second edition".  Thanks for the push to do more than skim, or spot read.

Well that's a good reference, but don't give me credit because all I did in this thread was mention using some old primers with corrosion that still worked.   Otherwise, lots of good info from others.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Fretless said:

 

 

Y'all have been more helpful than you realize, and @Abilene, SASS # 27489, I read "Modern Reloading, second edition".  Thanks for the push to do more than skim, or spot read.

Modern Reloading covers metallic cartridges. Shot shell reloading is totally different. There is nothing about cartridge reloading that applies to shot shells. 
 

This is what you must have on your shelf:
 

https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Shotshell-Handbook-5Th-Edition/dp/B085YCBDTL

 

Good luck! 

[Fretless]

The second edition has a section dedicated to shotshells 

[Fretless]

1 hour ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

This is what you must have on your shelf:

I will get that as soon as I can

1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

but don't give me credit

Oops.  Wrong Abilene 

[Fretless]

Resurrecting this thread for an update.

 

Recap:  I changed primers and my shotshells starting going poof instead of bang.  Got lots of feedback, ideas, education, but was not successful at making a consistent bang.

 

Today I scored a box of Federal 209a primers at the flea market.  These are the primers I had when I developed the load I was using.  Apparently these primers have been shown to develop higher pressures than any other shotshell primers.   

 

A few hours ago I loaded a dozen shells using my original load of 14.7 grains of tightgroup.  They all went bang, and knocked things down.  This week I will load 50 more, and Stitcher and I will try them at a match on Saturday.  I'll post the results here.

[Blind Squirrel]

14 hours ago, Fretless said:

Resurrecting this thread for an update.

 

Recap:  I changed primers and my shotshells starting going poof instead of bang.  Got lots of feedback, ideas, education, but was not successful at making a consistent bang.

 

Today I scored a box of Federal 209a primers at the flea market.  These are the primers I had when I developed the load I was using.  Apparently these primers have been shown to develop higher pressures than any other shotshell primers.   

 

A few hours ago I loaded a dozen shells using my original load of 14.7 grains of tightgroup.  They all went bang, and knocked things down.  This week I will load 50 more, and Stitcher and I will try them at a match on Saturday.  I'll post the results here.

 

Double your powder load with the Wolf primers and see what that does for you. 

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

I use Wolf 209 primers almost exclusively for my APP black powder loads.  Never had a failure of any kind.  I've got about 3K left of them, and will hate to see them gone.

[Fretless]

2 hours ago, LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L said:

Never had a failure of any kind.

This seems to be a common misunderstanding in this thread.  There have been no failures to fire.  What has happened is that the primers did not develop enough pressure to fully ignite the powder before dislodging the payload.  In your APP loads, like most shotgun loads, there is no empty space below the wad, so it is easy for the primer to build pressure.  That is not the case with the load in question 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Primer selection doesn't seem to make much difference in BP loads. I've heard of it making a bigger difference in smokeless.  I noticed recently in load data that came with some wads that a 3/4 oz load took a LOT more Clays for 1150 fps with a Cheddite primer than it did with a Fed 209a primer. 

[Fretless]

Well, we shot a match today with great success in the shotshell department.  Both my wife and I used shells I loaded with:

14.7 grains of Titegroup

federal 209a primers

1 oz reclaimed shot

CB 6100 wad

(This is in a straight walled federal Topgun hull). 

 

Every shell went bang.  Targets fell with relative authority, and it felt smooth on the shoulder.  If I can keep a stock of these components, I'm back in business.