Wolf shotshell primers.... Weak?

[Fretless]

I picked up some Wolf 209 primers from a local shooter.  Every shot a load is a dud.  Could the red coating be blocking the combustion from igniting the powder?  Could the fact that they are slightly shorter be the problem?

 

Federal top gun hulls

14.7 grains of Tightgroup 

1oz shot

[Cholla]

Perhaps they were not stored properly. I am not a fan of Wolf products but they go bang every time I pull the trigger. 

[Too Tall Bob]

I have used lots of wolf primers for shotgun, and never had a problem. However, I am curious as to why you are using titegroup for 12 gauge loads as It is recommended for pistol only. 

[Fretless]

1 hour ago, Too Tall Bob said:

I am curious as to why you are using titegroup for 12 gauge loads as It is recommended for pistol only. 

The quick answer is that it was both affordable and available when I was looking for something I could use for both 38 special and shotgun. 

 

There are published Tightgroup loads for shotgun, and I know other CAS shooters who use it.  I've been using this load with federal primers for around a year and a half with no issues.

[N.A. Custer 70498]

I have used a lot of titegroup for shotgun, it has the around the same burn rate as american select. I do agree that the primers may have not been stored right.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Your question is not very clear.  Are you saying the primers are not igniting at all?  Most modern shotshell primers have the flash hole covered.  Photo blue arrow.  This is because many modern ball and small grain powers can go down into the flash hole and cause ignition problems.  This cover is normal.  I have never had a Wolff primer fail to fire but have not had any Wolff shotshell primers for a while and cannot remember.  Is the flash hole sealed?  If it is not sealed try priming a hull and putting it in the gun and seeing if it goes off.  Titegroup is a fairly fine power and may not be compatible with open flash hole primers.  Have you tried the primers in a different gun?  If you can put primed hulls into different shotguns and none are going off then you have a bad batch of primers.

 

[Fretless]

5 hours ago, Too Tall Bob said:

3 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Are you saying the primers are not igniting at all?  

 

Sorry.  The primers are definitely igniting, but the powder isn't being touched off, or at least not fast enough.

I know the powder is fine.  I loaded a few shells with Nobel primers, and the same load.  They went bang as they should.

[Fretless]

3 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Is the flash hole sealed

Yes.  That was the red coating I was wondering about.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

29 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Sorry.  The primers are definitely igniting, but the powder isn't being touched off, or at least not fast enough.

I know the powder is fine.  I loaded a few shells with Nobel primers, and the same load.  They went bang as they should.

Try a different powder and see.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

41 minutes ago, Fretless said:

The primers are definitely igniting, but the powder isn't being touched off, or at least not fast enough.

 

Explain this in a little more detail.  What makes you think the powder isn't being touched off fast enough?  Do you have a good clear photo of the primer coating?

 

[Fretless]

Some of the wads didn't even clear the barrel.  A few left lingering flames in the barrel.

 

The same combination of powder, wad, hull, and lead, with a different primer fired just fine.

 

I won't be able to take a picture of the primer coating until tomorrow night, but it looks very much like the picture you posted.  The coating on the one I have might be a little thicker.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

This is part of the problem with diagnosing shotshell problems.  You are using Federal Top Gun hulls.  Top Gun hulls are not listed on the Hodgdon loading data website.  One reason is that a couple of the big reloading sites don't list Top Gun because just in the past couple of years there have been at least three variations of the Top Gun hull.  The base wads are different so the interior volume is different.  You did not list what wad you are using.  Top Guns are straight walled hulls and perform best with wads designed for straight hulls.  I clicked on every Federal Hull listed on the Hodgdon website.  None showed any Titegroup loads.  Hodgdon does show Titegroup data for Winchester AA and Remington STS and Gun Club hulls.  These are all tapered hulls with less interior volume.  Where did you get the data?  Without more data basically the only thing you can do is double check your reloading procedures and if everything is OK toss the Wolff primers and use what works for you.

[Fretless]

CB 6100 wad

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

31 minutes ago, Fretless said:

CB 6100 wad

What are the details of your load?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

This only partly on-topic, but as far as being "stored improperly", I got probably 1K CCI 209's from my brother that had been stored for 30 years in a bucket with a bunch of other stuff (and mouse droppings) in his garage, with quite a few of them loose as rodents had also chewed up some of the cardboard sleeves.   Many had a lot of corrosion, but all went bang.

[Fretless]

16 hours ago, Fretless said:

Federal top gun hulls

14.7 grains of Tightgroup 

1oz shot

CB 6100 wad

7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What are the details of your load?

 

[Fretless]

The only change from a working combination to a non-working one is the primer.  Maybe the primers are fine, but just not a good fit for this combination of components?  I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Fretless said:

The only change from a working combination to a non-working one is the primer.  Maybe the primers are fine, but just not a good fit for this combination of components?  I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.  

Try a different powder.

Confirm your scale is correctly calibrated. 

Any way moisturizer could have gotten inside the hull?

[Lucky R. K.]

Fretless, your friend's primers were damaged in some way, probably moisture but there is no way to know.

I do know that a shotgun primer has enough energy by itself to move the shotshell contents clear of the barrel. It has happened to me several times when I had a squib with no powder.

That's all I got.

Lucky 

[Rip Snorter]

I used Wolf in special cases with wax bullets for CFD.  They deliver enough of a whack that I gave some rounds to a Rancher friend to use discouraging aggressive bulls.

[Burn Through]

I hope you dont have very many  of those primers  , I bet thats the problem . I had 300 giving to me they were old and probably not stored right . anyway i popped a few off sounded good loaded them and the blooper show was on I about went crazy thinking maybe the ol 600 wasnt droping right amount of powder or this or that . finally figured it out after a lot of checking this and that 

[Fretless]

11 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Any way moisturizer could have gotten inside the hull?

No way.  I keep my moisturizer in a different room.  Too many dropped parts when the moisturizer gets near the loading table. 

[Fretless]

Thanks everybody.  Y'all have wracked your brains to try to help me.  After shooting a whole match today with inconsistent shotshells, I'm taking it all in, and going to revisit some other possibilities that have nothing to do with the primers.

 

Namely:

Stack height, crimp, and the possibility that the powder load is positionally sensitive

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

31 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Thanks everybody.  Y'all have wracked your brains to try to help me.  After shooting a whole match today with inconsistent shotshells, I'm taking it all in, and going to revisit some other possibilities that have nothing to do with the primers.

 

Namely:

Stack height, crimp, and the possibility that the powder load is positionally sensitive

 

Try those loads in a different SG

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Fretless said:

Thanks everybody.  Y'all have wracked your brains to try to help me.  After shooting a whole match today with inconsistent shotshells, I'm taking it all in, and going to revisit some other possibilities that have nothing to do with the primers.

 

Namely:

Stack height, crimp, and the possibility that the powder load is positionally sensitive

 

Position sensitive powder in a shot shell? How does that happen when the column stacks directly on top of the powder? As more detail comes to light in your responses, I’m thinking your knowledge of shot shell loading has some gaps that can’t be filled in an online forum. A Lyman manual read from the beginning and a mentor are highly recommended.
 

That’s how I learned. Good luck! 

[Bullett Sass 19707]

I use a very light load of clays powder in Rem or Win shot shells.  When the weather is really cold I have had rounds that made a loud boom and a ball of fire out the mussel of the shotgun.  A fellow shooter had the same in a 97 except the flames came out the ejection port and a small fire would be in the port and chamber of the shotgun.  The 97 did not recoil the same and the wad would barely leave the mussel and you could watch the shot on its way to the target.  When we shot the next match we upped the powder and the problem went away.  Bullett

[Eyesa Horg]

I'm going with the BAD primers theory.

[Lucky R. K.]

46 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I'm going with the BAD primers theory.

The only thing that makes sense.

Lucky 

[Ranger Dan]

I tried a similar load last year. Don't recall the exact weight of powder I used. When fall came and the weather cooled down, I experienced the same problem you are having. Inconsistent ignition. I was shooting a 97 and would get flames out the ejection port. Titegroup is not position sensitive, however it is temp sensitive. Very light loads will experience inconsistent ignition in colder temps. I have since switched to Titewad for shotgun.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

I tried a similar load last year. Don't recall the exact weight of powder I used. When fall came and the weather cooled down, I experienced the same problem you are having. Inconsistent ignition. I was shooting a 97 and would get flames out the ejection port. Titegroup is not position sensitive, however it is temp sensitive. Very light loads will experience inconsistent ignition in colder temps. I have since switched to Titewad for shotgun.

Just a question, just how light a powder charge are you using?

I have used TiteGroup for over 12 years, with bullets from 105 to 158.

My pistol’s were most of the time 2.8 grains with a 125 bullet (though I now use 3.2 to simplify the reloading process) and once I had an electronic scale get out of whack and loaded a couple hundred at 2.2 grains. I have shot in weather down to -9 degrees and have NEVER had a temperature related issue with TiteGroup. 
The biggest reason I use it was because when I started I was told by more experienced shooters to use Clays at 3.0 grains but as soon as the temperature dropped into the low 20’s high teens I got the classic BANG, bang, bang, Bang, BANG. Which meant each winter I had to either change to magnum primers or add more powder or both. Too lazy so moved to TiteGroup. No problems since. 

Respectfully

    

Gateway Kid

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Forgot to add I know we are talking about a shotgun load but I am a little confused, since the wad is supposed to actually be in contact with the powder how would the powder position change? And why would that make it temperature sensitive?
Respectfully

    

Gateway Kid

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I'm going with the BAD primers theory.

We are not letting him off that easy 

[Ranger Dan]

Gateway Kid: I was loading 13-14 gr in federal hulls that shot fine until late in the season when temps were in the 30s. I also experimented with very light loads in my 44-40s, same issue when the load was below 4.5 gr. I have always used 3.0 gr in 38sp, 125gr bullets, no issues there with temps. As I stated earlier, titegroup is not position sensitive, it is temp sensitive, especially when using very light loads. 14gr is very light for shotgun, if I recall (don't have my load data here) book load for 12ga is more like 16gr. 44.40 data from hodgon, 4.5gr minimum for 160gr bullets, 5.0gr minimun for 200gr bullets, I load 180gr so on the edge of min. 38sp is 3.2gr for 125gr bullets. I know alot of shooter who use considerably less. Quick search of hodgon data shows 16gr is minimum for fed hull 1 oz.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

22 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Gateway Kid: I was loading 13-14 gr in federal hulls that shot fine until late in the season when temps were in the 30s. I also experimented with very light loads in my 44-40s, same issue when the load was below 4.5 gr. I have always used 3.0 gr in 38sp, 125gr bullets, no issues there with temps. As I stated earlier, titegroup is not position sensitive, it is temp sensitive, especially when using very light loads. 14gr is very light for shotgun, if I recall (don't have my load data here) book load for 12ga is more like 16gr. 44.40 data from hodgon, 4.5gr minimum for 160gr bullets, 5.0gr minimun for 200gr bullets, I load 180gr so on the edge of min. 38sp is 3.2gr for 125gr bullets. I know alot of shooter who use considerably less. Quick search of hodgon data shows 16gr is minimum for fed hull 1 oz.

Thanks

I have not used Titegroup in a shotgun shell. I have only been loading SG since about 2009 or so and have always used Clays.

My first loads were 1 1/8 oz over 16 grains Clays.

My wifes loads were 3/4 oz over 14.5 grains Clays.

My latest version is a compromise at 3/4 oz over 15.2 grains Clays.

When my wife went out with me we only shot on warmer days so temperature was never an issue, however many years ago I shot whenever there was a match and that included a lot of low (10F-15F) and sometimes below zero farenheit days. When I was working my practice time was whenever I could get to the range and that usually meant early evenings in the winter and usually very cold. Again I have NEVER had a temperature or positional related issue with Titegroup only the Clays at very low levels of charge.

Guess I have just been lucky! 

Again thanks for your info

Respectfully

    

Gateway Kid

[Yohan]

On 3/26/2023 at 9:07 PM, Fretless said:

Thanks everybody.  Y'all have wracked your brains to try to help me.  After shooting a whole match today with inconsistent shotshells, I'm taking it all in, and going to revisit some other possibilities that have nothing to do with the primers.

 

Namely:

Stack height, crimp, and the possibility that the powder load is positionally sensitive

 

Hey Buddy, I shoot Titegroup in my shotshells. You have seen mine go boom boom :-) I run 13 grain pushing a CB1178-12 wad 7/8oz of either 7 - 1/2 or 8 shot. Just FYI might be a little help if you are checking your recipe??? Won't see you at Oak Ridge next shoot I'll be at South Carolina State good luck!!