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Who has tried this front sight mod on a SAA replica revolver?


Mysterious Stranger

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My buddy who does not shoot CAS but knows a number of CAS shooters in his city say that some of them, frustrated by the poor "authentic" front sight on their Peacemaker replicas, have modded the front sight.

 

They have cut one, or some of them more than one, tiny "steps" into the rear (facing the shooter) surface front sight, and "painted" each step with a colour highly visible to them. Ny buddy has never asked any of them specifically why they did this and this way, but suggested In ask here at the SASS Wire.

 

I am THINKING that the coloured step provides a much more visible reference point for sight alignment than the "authentic" plain dark and ROUNDED upper surface of the sight provides. This is probably particularly effective when the target surface is black or nearly so, as the authentic front sight is very dark.

 

I am guessing MULTIPLE steps would allow a shooter to compensate for different shooting distances, which I guess would be helpful since CAS ammunition typically produces pretty slow velocities. On the other hand, CAS handgun shooting distances are short, so maybe the multiple steps has a different reason behind it.

 

Can some of you here educate me on why and how this is being done by some shooters?

 

And, is it legal for SASS matches? Or only legal if done certain ways? (I ask this because I THINK it NOT SASS legal to install a dovetail front sight)

 

I could really use some help that makes the front sight more visible. I have a terrible time using both it and the rather shallow and indistinct glorified groove rear sight. The combination makes it really slow for me to line up the sights, and even then, produces marginal accuracy.

 

Jim G

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You should consider installing Sure hit brass sites glued over your current site or Heartless Gamer sites which are my preference. Badman bullets sells the Heartless Gamer sites. You can install them yourself. 

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Thanks PaleWolf Brunelle. It looks like this is legal for SASS provided that the colour used looks like the colour of a material typical for Old West times (including Ivory).

 

Thanks, Tarheel Doc. The Heartless Gamer "slip-on" front sight LOOKS really easy to install. My attempts to pull up the installation instructions on the website did not work, but I assume you simply first check the fit over the front sight, then remove, apply adhesive, and slip back on?

 

And the resulting wider surface gives you room to embed a "dot" or "horizontal bar" in an approved colour that would provide the ability to hold to a different elevation, since the slip-on sight adda a bit more height to an OEM sight that already is too high and causes me to shoot low.

 

This could work for me.

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58 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

I am guessing MULTIPLE steps would allow a shooter to compensate for different shooting distances

 

25 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

And the resulting wider surface gives you room to embed a "dot" or "horizontal bar" in an approved colour that would provide the ability to hold to a different elevation

 

Jim calm down.  Your have got to be kidding.  Do you seriously think the typical 70+ year old SASS shooter is going to have steps on their front sights so when they move from five yards to six or from six to seven they can compensate for the distance changes?  NO!  A lot of people do not even use the sights.  They point shoot. The vast majority really only focus on the front sight.  When someone misses the peanut gallery does not yell "use your second step and perfectly align the sight in the rear notch."  They yell "front sight."  Most of your questions have no relevance to SASS shooting.  SASS is up close large targets shot as fast as you can shoot them.  Forgot all the stuff you have raised questions about.  As has been suggested in earlier posts go out and buy a 12" diameter paper plate.  Staple it to a 1 x 2 so the target is about waist high.  Set it up at six yards.  Draw and shoot.  Draw and shoot.  Then draw and fire five rounds.  If you cannot hit the plate at six yards then it is time to ask more questions.

 

P.S.  Read the rules Pale Wolf posted.  Dot front sights and bars are not allowed on pistols.

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35 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

Thanks PaleWolf Brunelle. It looks like this is legal for SASS provided that the colour used looks like the colour of a material typical for Old West times (including Ivory).

 

Thanks, Tarheel Doc. The Heartless Gamer "slip-on" front sight LOOKS really easy to install. My attempts to pull up the installation instructions on the website did not work, but I assume you simply first check the fit over the front sight, then remove, apply adhesive, and slip back on?

 

And the resulting wider surface gives you room to embed a "dot" or "horizontal bar" in an approved colour that would provide the ability to hold to a different elevation, since the slip-on sight adda a bit more height to an OEM sight that already is too high and causes me to shoot low.

 

This could work for me.

I'm going to second Larsen on this one.  There is zero need for that type of elaborate sight setup in CAS.  With targets ranging from 3-6 yards out how much elevation do you need?  Furthermore if you look carefully at the Shooter's Handbook pages that PWB referenced you'll see:

 

  • -  Fixed sight revolvers may only use traditional style, barrel mounted, fixed metallic foresights of a simple blade, bead, or post configuration.

  • -  A simple open notched rear sight cut into the frame, hammer, or latch mechanism is the only rear sight allowed.

  • -  Ramp style front sights are not allowed.

  • -  Beaded post front sights or inserts are not allowed.

This is not bullseye target shooting.  A hit on the edge is just as good as a dead center hit.  

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Jim, save yourself a lot of fretting and go shoot a match. You'll find most of your worries are moot at 5 yards. Just go have fun!

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1 hour ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

Oh, I just saw the SUBSEQUENT sections on sights on the next page of the handbook, and see now that doing pretty anything to modify the slip-on sight would be not legal. :(

 

What "SUBSEQUENT sections" other than the TWO pages to which you were referred?? <_<

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18 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

What "SUBSEQUENT sections" other than the TWO pages to which you were referred?? <_<

 

I stopped at the end of the first section on handgun sights when the text seemed tp flip to "rifle' sights.. I did not realzie there were later subdivisions on handgun sights on the next page.

 

Jim G

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By the way to help other "international" shooters:

 

- The SureHit website and the Badland websites are both in The U.S., and are not really set up to ship internaitonal

 

- The SureHit site will take an internaitonal order, but adds on only $7US for shipping, which seems way small for actual international shipping cost. They took my credit card payment but I wonder if I will get a subsequent email about the shipping.

 

- Badlands flat won't ship outside The U.S. And their actual ordering screen supports that by not allowing any country but The U.S.

 

I know you guys telling me that most of the CAS shots are very small distances and point shooting is often adequate, but as I have said elsewhere on the forum, "Only accurate firearms are interesting". Heck at 5 yards, a STONE would probably get the job done if you could "reload and cock" fast enough. But I'd like any of my handguns to be good for at least 25 yards "just because". 

 

Jim G

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

"Only accurate firearms are interesting".

 

If you want that level of accuracy you are in the wrong game shooting the wrong pistols.  SASS is fun.  It seems you are trying not have fun.  Relax and enjoy yourself.

 

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11 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

By the way to help other "international" shooters:

 

- The SureHit website and the Badland websites are both in The U.S., and are not really set up to ship internaitonal

 

- The SureHit site will take an internaitonal order, but adds on only $7US for shipping, which seems way small for actual international shipping cost. They took my credit card payment but I wonder if I will get a subsequent email about the shipping.

 

- Badlands flat won't ship outside The U.S. And their actual ordering screen supports that by not allowing any country but The U.S.

 

I know you guys telling me that most of the CAS shots are very small distances and point shooting is often adequate, but as I have said elsewhere on the forum, "Only accurate firearms are interesting". Heck at 5 yards, a STONE would probably get the job done if you could "reload and cock" fast enough. But I'd like any of my handguns to be good for at least 25 yards "just because". 

 

Jim G

 

 

Accurate is a subjective term. 

 

My CAS guns are very accurate, for CAS applications. 

 

Are my 1873 Ubertis as accurate as my pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in 300 Win Mag, no they're not, but I'm not shooting them at targets 500 yards and more away either.

 

I'm sure you're already aware of this, but just in case, CAS is about both speed AND accuracy.  The types of sights that lend themselves to extreme levels of accuracy do not necessarily lend themselves to speed.  When I shoulder an 1873 I want to see that front sight right now!  I don't want to have to search for a tiny brass bead inside a full buckhorn rear sight because that just slows me down and adds nothing to my competitive position.  That's why I prefer big, easy to pick up front sights.  In fact my pistol and rifle sights are so big that at some distances they completely cover up a target.  Fortunately those are distances that I won't be asked to deal with in a SASS match.

 

I suggest saving your extreme accuracy modifications for side match guns where it's relevant and won't have a negative impact on your competitiveness.

 

Welcome to the game!

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When I put my front sites on I miked the front site on the pistol & then filed the brass site down to match Then file the front site down on the pistol until the brass site fits flush on the barrel.DONE..

                                                                                                                                           Largo

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Injun Ryder: Yes, when I was in CAS previously, at least a couple decades ago, my alias was indeed "Postal Inspector". There's a story behind that:

 

I was a contract IT Project Manager contractor. My longest "temporary assignment" was working for Northrop Grumman on assignment at United States Postal Service (USPS). For SEVEN YEARS! (They liked the projects I proposed and managed for them). 

 

During my time there, I learned about USPS "Postal Inspectors", and learned that they were FORMIDABLE lawmen who never stopped looking for anyone who robbed the mail or otherwise hurt USPS. In fact, in the movie "Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid", Butch and Sundance asked, incredulously, "Who ARE those guys", when they were chased so PERSISTENTLY by the posse of Postal Inspectors! That question is asked in the movie because in real life, that posse was a posse of Postal Inspectors NOT a sheriff's or Marshall's posse!

 

In modern times, the Postal Inspector's persistence, reputation, and seriousness remain very strong. In fact, while I was working at USPS on that assignment, FOUR of them showed up one day, armed, looking VERY serious, and arrested the timekeeper for the IT department, because he had apparently been clocking in on Saturdays for overtime pay, going out with his girlfriend to dine and shop, and then returning to USPS to punch out. He also drove one year old Cadillac Eldorados all the time on a gross annual salary that was about 100% of what a Cadillac Eldorado cost. The Inspectors nailed him! He had forgotten that with the new electronic badge door system, his arrivals and departures were independently recorded and the Inspectors used that information.

 

I figured that given my 7 year stay at Postal, I should honour the inspectors by using that alias.

 

However, I now live in Canada, where "Postal Inspectors" at Canada Post are more like auditor-detectives to detect and stop postal fraud, etc, which is being more like an accountant than a detective and enforcer. So I am working on a new alias that better fits my new SASS persona. I've asked SASS Main Office about the availability of my current leading contender for the new alias!

 

Jim G

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Holy Cattle Cowboys,

 

5 yards!? I know that some shooters like close targets, but that seems awful close. I have always considered 7 yards a minimum. I have heard that some of the big events have moved the targets in for the sake generating fast times, but in my experience (watching) really top shooters, they still take top honors regardless of where the targets are placed. I will still consider 7 yards a minimum just due to bullet splash. The rest of y'all can do what you want.

 

Rev. Chase

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I thought your name sounded familiar. I bought your 1887 back in 2001 and have used it consistently since then.

 

If the alias is still available, you should be able to get it back as well as your old SASS number.

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4 hours ago, Reverend P. Babcock Chase said:

Holy Cattle Cowboys,

 

5 yards!? I know that some shooters like close targets, but that seems awful close. I have always considered 7 yards a minimum. I have heard that some of the big events have moved the targets in for the sake generating fast times, but in my experience (watching) really top shooters, they still take top honors regardless of where the targets are placed. I will still consider 7 yards a minimum just due to bullet splash. The rest of y'all can do what you want.

 

Rev. Chase

Closer targets do NOT advantage top shooters, quite the opposite.  7 yard pistol targets would be on the ' medium to far' side around here.

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2 hours ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

I thought your name sounded familiar. I bought your 1887 back in 2001 and have used it consistently since then.

 

If the alias is still available, you should be able to get it back as well as your old SASS number.

 

You bought my 1887 lever action shotgun? Glad it has worked out for you! It worked ok for me, but I was actually more comfprytable with an 1897, and now a have Stoeger coach gun to try.

 

I do want a different Alias now - one that does not tie me geographically to only The U.S., since I live and shoot in Canada now!

 

Jim G

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38 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

You should be able to get your original SASS number and then get a new name to go with it.

 

Yes, I DID! I will be psoting about the experience. Maria at SASS was GREAT!

 

Jim G

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18 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Closer targets do NOT advantage top shooters, quite the opposite.  7 yard pistol targets would be on the ' medium to far' side around here.

I wish more people understood this.

 

Bigger, Closer targets were NOT championed by the top shooters - but by the midpack shooter (like myself) who wanted to miss less and go faster.

 

This move to faster stage times had the unexpected consequence of making matches more competitive as it significantly closed the time differences between top shooters and midpack (the 30% difference between a top shooter and a midpack shooter is 13.5 seconds when stages are 45 seconds - that same 30% is only 6.6 seconds when stages are 22 seconds)  AND quicker stages significantly increased the penalty for misses and procedural penalties.  5 seconds is only a hair over 10% penalty on a 45 second stage - its a 25% penalty on a 20 second one).

 

This means that a singular mistake by a top tier shooter puts them in range of a shooter like myself on that stage - on a longer, more challenging stage - the top shooter has more cushion for error over me.

 

And the fact is - the midpack shooters pay for your match, as there are a lot more shooters in that group than the group in the top 5%.  If the folks paying the bills stop having fun or feeling competitive - the game ends.

 

There are some that decry the bigger, closer mantra - and long for 100 yard rifle and 30 yard pistol stages - but that is not what COWBOY is about.

And as much as I detest shooting those type matches - I detest a 1000 times over the sheer BOREDOM of having to watch a dozen shooters with 10+ misses and 75 second times.

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FYI.

As to marking the front sight, Elmer Keith experimented with distant shots with a pistol out to several hundred yards.  So he placed marks on the front sight to help him at longer yardage shots.  He also knew where the bullet would hit if you put the full front sight on top of the rear sight notch to help.
You know, kind of like we do at 100 an, 200 yards and further.  :)  So you may investigate that when you want to try long-range pistol side matches.

 

But he enjoyed experimenting like that with his 44 Specials with special loads.  He used this method to finish off an animal he had already shot at about 850 yards.  He had a spotter help him and believe it took 3 rounds.   (I've slept since I helped spot for him... :D )

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Keith

 

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On 3/23/2023 at 11:10 AM, Reverend P. Babcock Chase said:

Holy Cattle Cowboys,

 

5 yards!? I know that some shooters like close targets, but that seems awful close. I have always considered 7 yards a minimum. I have heard that some of the big events have moved the targets in for the sake generating fast times, but in my experience (watching) really top shooters, they still take top honors regardless of where the targets are placed. I will still consider 7 yards a minimum just due to bullet splash. The rest of y'all can do what you want.

 

Rev. Chase

My reading of this post is that it is not saying bigger closer targets are an advantage for top shooters or that top shooters wanted them. He merely references that match directors have believed bigger closer targets generated fast times, but no indication that this was just for top shooters. He even mentions that top shooters will win with either target setup. 

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Thanks Smoking G,

You must have actually read what I wrote.

 

Hey Colorado,

I didn't say that close targets create bullet splash. Close targets bring the bullet splash back closer to the shooter, TO and counters. I also used the universal coverall of "The rest of y'all can do what you want."

 

Rev. Chase

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On 3/22/2023 at 4:51 PM, Mysterious Stranger said:

 

I know you guys telling me that most of the CAS shots are very small distances and point shooting is often adequate, but as I have said elsewhere on the forum, "Only accurate firearms are interesting".

Well friend myself and many other sass shooters can hit 100 yard targets with stock single action sights. Not that it's of any use in competition but it's done for bragging rights. It takes a lot of practice and knowing your gun. Don't need fancy pants sights to do it. Might make it easier but not needed. The gun is only as accurate as the hand holding it. 

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An application of a 40 lpi Swiss file to the rear of front sights does wonders for eliminating glare-

 

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 As to long range shooting with SA's, it's very possible and not difficult, with practice-

 

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Reading through this thread, as a mid level shooter, I wish the targets were further away. I believe the top shooters are the best at "thats good enough" before pulling the trigger. Closer targets make that easier. Middle level shooters tend to be a little more conservative before each trigger pull.

 

As an example, at a match last year, we had a small and far (~70 yards) rifle target. I was shooting 22 that day (due to ammo shortage). Many top shooters missed that target, but I got it. Of course took some time to hear the ping (glad it was the last target on the stage). I will say, as soon as I pulled the trigger, I knew in my head, "thats good".

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As far as sights on my revolvers, Taylors, I just use a gold ink pen on the front of the blade to contrast with the rear notch. This is within the rules as I understand. Never had a comment/question on it. If I did, a towel rubbing could easily remove it.

 

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