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44-40 reloading options and Redding premium expander die


Johnny Knight

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I know there have been quite a few threads on reloading 44-40, I've gone back through a bunch of them.  I've been using a combination of the RCBS cowboy dies with the Lee Factory crimp die, but still having occasional issues where the rounds do not want to fully seat in the cylinder.  To accommodate the .429 barrel on the Ruger vaquero I've been using epoxy coated .430 bullets.  To ensure uniformity on the bullets, they have been run through a separate .430 sizing die.  On the Rugers, the cylinders have already been reamed to address the known undersized throat issue.  I'm using the Lee powder through expander die where I've swapped out the expander plug from a 44 spl/mag (.430) instead of the original expander plug from the 44-40 (.427).  The issue is I have gotten inconsistent results.  Some cases load just fine, while others are shaving lead and/or are bulging in the neck.  It seems I'm getting inconsistent expansion on the case from the Lee expander die.   

In looking at other options for expansion dies, I ran across the Redding premium expansion die.  I like the profile and it seems they prioritized getting the dimensions precise with a smoother coating to help prevent sticking.  I'm wondering if anyone has used this die in reloading this cartridge?  As an additional data point, the load is 15 gn of APP 3f, using the backer rod for a bit of compression.  Any input would be appreciated. 

Regards,

Johnny

PremDieSetsForHandgunCartridgesExpander.jpg

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I, too, had problems with Lee dies, using the 44 mag expander.  Bullets were not seating straight, even down to .428 bullets.  Using only Starline and Winchester brass since they have the thinnest necks.   I might have been able to reshape the Lee bullet seating stem to fit the nose better, but I bought a used RCBS seat/crimp die and use it for seating (crimp w/ Lee FCD).  That straightened them out.

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At the moment, I'm using whatever brass I can get ahold of.  Since it is all at least once fired (and some I suspect very well used), I'm trying to find the most forgiving setup I can, at least until I catch the next time Starline opens up 44-40 again.

Johnny

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I have had the best results using the RCBS Cowboy expander die. It has a similar profile to the one you pictured. It has 2 steps of expansion before belling the case, allowing the bullet to be set deeper in the case and stay straight when seating. I resize on a single stage then use the cowboy expander die in position 1 of a dillon 650 then using the 44 magnum (G I think) expander / powder funnel in position 2 and setting the depth to not expand the case, only enough to push the powder funnel up and dump the powder charge. Recently I sent my 44 magnum expander / powder funnel die to a machinist who ground the profile to match the RCBS Cowboy expander die. So far it has been working great. I'm loading .428 to .430 coated bullets. Also using the RCBS Cowboy seating/crimping die in a single seat/crimp in position 4. Yes I seat and crimp in one step with this die and it has worked great for 5 years now. I firmly believe the expander die is the key to getting bullets to seat properly.

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RCBS expander die for me too.   Using .429 button for .44 spl or mag.

 

And, the Redding Profile Crimp Die for a crimping-only operation as the last step of loading.  I tested and measured, and get perfect necks and tighter crimps with the Redding than even with the Lee Factory Crimp die, which can bulge necks.  Only on .44-40 do I find that I have to tinker with special dies to load the very thin cases that .44 WCF has.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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Where you mention getting inconsistent expansion I suspect the case lengths may have enough difference that the flare you are getting is changing. I ran into this between new Starline, and some used CBC. I also went with the Redding profile crimp and have not had any issues since. 

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I had the same issues in the beginning. My first fix was to post size my completed rounds with Lee full length sizing die minus the decapping pin. That worked for about 95% of my issues. Then I found a redding profile crimp die. Separated the seating and crimping using the redding profile die and I haven't had any issues with chambering since. 

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Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is you have offended the Black Powder Gods!   15 gn of APP 3f and backer rod.  XXX is APP and backer rod?

A sorry state it is, as sorry state.:P  You will never find true happiness loading for a BP category unless you follow the true path of smokiness  bliss.  Until you do, all your complications and setbacks finding the perfect, loaded round will hound you unmercifully. 

The Gods have spoken!

And so has,

Chazzle Dazzle:ph34r:

 

 

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1 minute ago, Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104 said:

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is you have offended the Black Powder Gods!   15 gn of APP 3f and backer rod.  XXX is APP and backer rod?

A sorry state it is, as sorry state.:P  You will never find true happiness loading for a BP category unless you follow the true path of smokiness  bliss.  Until you do, all your complications and setbacks finding the perfect, loaded round will hound you unmercifully. 

The Gods have spoken!

And so has,

Chazzle Dazzle:ph34r:

 

 

Preach it!!!!

 

Full cases or go back to the kids table. 

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1 minute ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

Preach it!!!!

 

Full cases or go back to the kids table. 

Amen brother, Hallelujah!  Let the truth shine through the blackness and smoke.

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Since you're using coated bullets and a bp substitute rod backer is fine. If you were using true black you wouldn't want the coated bullets or the melted rod backer clogging up your rifling. I'm a true bp guy and use 20 grains 1.5 f with crushed walnut for filler. Don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong. App makes plenty of smoke. Smells funny but definitely enough smoke 

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Lol, well I'm prepared to take a bit of grief.  I'll give full credit to Buckshot for not short loading his cases! Likewise, I knew Chas couldn't commenting on the load as well (though to be fair, he's been very generous sharing his BP load recipe and grease cookies).  I went to the APP as an expedient since I haven't worked up my casting yet and the source I had used for some big lunlbe bullets, Whyte Leather Works, has gotten out of the business.  I have managed to round up some real black powder, so I'll be sure to load up some 'real' blackpowder rounds as well!

Johnny

 

P.s. I'm still at the kids table getting started with all this, I'm not as 'venerable' as some of you...

Chase couldn't resist that is...

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I’ve loaded 44/40 for 20 years. Took a while to figure it all out. Quit using the FCD die. Seat and crimp with the factory seating die. If you set the die so a small gap is left between top edge of crimp groove and case mouth to allow difference in case size you will  eliminate 95% of bulged crimps, for the remainder I do what Jack does, I use a 2nd seating die with decapper removed, and insert the round just enough to remove the bulge without resizing the bullet. I tried 429 & 430 bullets but went back to 428 which are just as accurate in the 429 barrel by using a softer alloy bullet. The one most casters use for smokeless  are way too hard to expand and fit the rifling. They use the super hard alloy for ease of casting not for your accuracy.

 

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Aside from progressive presses,

 

When using .430" 44 Magnum bullets in .427" 44 Winchester cartridges;

  • 44-40 RCBS "Cowboy" Resize Die - Works best with .429" lead bullets...why?...because the die does not resize the case neck all the way down for use with .4255" jacketed bullets. Thus still allows for plenty of neck retention when used with .428" to .429" bullets. Can still be used with .430" bullets, but we are now pushing the "forcing a square peg into a round hole" threshold.
  • Lyman 44 Magnum "M" expanding die - This die expands the case neck to the proper size for the .430" magnum bullets. The "M" die bellows the neck in a much better uniform way. Winchester brass is not only THIN but also ELLASTIC, creating multiple problems. These problems lead up to lead shaving, mouth crushes, case crushes and chamber fit issues. The thicker the brass, the more likely the cartridge will not chamber.
  • Brass - Winchester brass is the thinnest. While it more or so guarantees a better fit, it comes with a price. Damaged cases will be had! Starline brass is best but now we can start having dimension issues at the roll crimp. The bulge left at the base of the roll can be enough to create chambering issues. Remington brass is what brakes the camels back since it is thicker and plays havoc on measurements.
  • Seating Die - whatever works. The problem typically met here should be overcome by adhering to the first three steps  
  • Roll Crimp - Roll crimping can bring back a problem that was fixed in a previous step. Go back to "Brass" above. Winchester factory cartridges never used a roll crimp. This is the number one culprit to most problems
  • LFCD - The fix-all to all of the issues above that are typically not fixed at the beginning. However, there is still that pesky budge and other issue
  • Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp - the best of the best. The problem here is not the die itself, but that fact that the loader is trying to repeat the issue of using a 44-40 tool with a 44 magnum component. The key here is the word "Profile".....referring to the bullet o'give. If the bullet is oversized or not of the 44-40 profile, it will not work.
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As others have mentioned. The Redding profile crimp die is your friend. I have to use it in a separate operation because I don't have an extra opening for it on my press.
I have also found that the Hornady Cowboy seating die works the best for me. It has more adjustment available between the depth and crimp setting.
I still occasionally get loads that won't fit in the check gauge so I run them through the Redding profile crimp die. I just reticently learned that if the Redding die doesn't fit it, take the expander out of a 30-06 sizing die and run it through it. That will fix it for sure (I only use those for practice).
Usually what causes my issues  is a Hornady (shorter) or Remington (thicker) case but the above methods fix those issues.

 

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The biggest factor that I found, (and confirmed when I switched from a conventional die set to a Square Deal B with its proprietary dies and briefly stopped using it) is the RCBS sizer die. Almost completely eliminated any fitment issues, which prior to using it was around 1/20 or so.  Everyone has their own " secrets" for WCF cartridges, that's mine for 44-40.  I have a single stage press with that sizer in it next to my SDB, and run everything through it first. 

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Either I'm not too picky or got lucky.  But a couple of years ago I bought my first 44.40 rifle... even after years of hearing how hard it was to load them... I bought a box of Winchester "cowboy" ammo and a thousand pieces of Starline brass and a RCBS set of "Cowboy" dies.  A new thru expander from Dillon and another toolhead.  I put everything on the 550C, set about 50 cases up on the bench, lightly sprayed them with some Royal case lube and proceeded to load fifty cases up with a commercial 200 gr bullet I bought from a local supplier.  (After getting the seating/crimp die properly set using the Winchester ammo).  Ran all 50 thru the shell checker, and encountered no problems.  On the 2nd 50 I did manage to mangle one case in the powder station after checking the powder charge and not getting the case centered under the thru die expander.  I've since loaded around 400 rounds with no problems like y'all describe here.   Either I unknowingly hold my tongue right, or y'all don't!  Oh yeah, after that first 99 that made it thru the checker, I reloaded and only replaced what's been lost at the range.  Methinks that many place so much emphasis on how hard .44-40 is to load that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Surely if I can load quite adequate .44-40 ammo on my Dillon using a combination seat/crimp die, y'all can do so with your convoluted self-hating special seat & crimp dies.  Just go slow, observe the details and big things take care of themselves.  Frankly, I've never paid attention to the diameter of the bullet I've been buying, nor it's "paper" accuracy, only that it provides "minute of Wild Bunch" accuracy out of my AWA Lightning!    This thread has been frustrating to read... knowing that since I only load for one rifle any contribution on my part is meaningless.  Although sometimes I wished I'd never sold the pair of engraved/silver/gold plated SAs I won at EOT back in 1986!  They'd have made a beautiful pair of B-Western pistols!  

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WhenI first began loading .44-40 for my Marlin, I used RCRS dies and a Dillon powder dispenser for .44 mag.  Press was a 550B, bullets were ,429 diameter.  Soon added a Lee factory crimp die.  Several years later I acquired a set of Rugers in .44-40 and a Winchester 1873, also in .44-40.  That's when I began reading about the Redding profile crimp die.  I purchased one along with a set of Hornady cowboy action dies for .429 bullets.  After getting the Redding die I recrimped all of my loaded rounds and noticed that the crimp tightened up the neck of the cartridges.  Rifle rounds cycle much smoother.  The Hornady seating die has a sleeve that keeps the bullet upright during the seating process.  No more crushed case due to a tilted bullet.  Overall I have to say that I am totally satisfied with my present setup. 

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4 hours ago, Griff said:

Either I unknowingly hold my tongue right, or y'all don't! 

 

You've only got, what , 40 years of experience loading?   That goes a long way in knowing how to set up dies, how to go slow as you learn the tricks, and remembering the tricks you find useful (like, using a factory round to set the seater/crimper dies!)

 

Besides, Griff, you're just good!  GJ

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Just finished up loading 50 rounds using a combination of the RCBS cowboy die for resizing/depriming, the Redding premium expander die (with the 44 spl/mag plug), the RCBS cowboy seating die and finishing with the Redding profile crimp die.  Only had one case get crunched, a couple are still a little tight in the Ruger cylinder (though one chamber is a tad tighter than the others.  So, overall it looks like a working setup.

Out of curiosity, what OAL are folks using on their 44-40?  I've got an Uberti 1873 that I'll be using until I track down an 1860 Henry.  I loaded to 1.585 on these, given the SAAMI max length of 1.592.  I didn't know finicky the rifle might be on OAL.  I should be able to throw some rounds down range the next couple of days to see if that length works.

 

Thanks again everyone for all the input while I'm getting this cartridge sorted out.

 

Johnny

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JK, the cheap easy way to check for AOL in your '73 is to open the lever, thru the rifle upside down & drop the loaded round in the bottom of the carrier mortise and see if it fits...  Turn it over and it should just drop right out into your hand.  

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Well another 150 rounds through the process and no crunched cases.    A few are still coming out snug in the cylinder, but the are almost entirely  CBC brass or the occasional Remington brass.  A quick look online confirmed the CBC brass has a reputation of being noticeably thicker, same for the Remington.

Kid Rich kindly offered the suggestion to back out the bullet seating die a bit so as to not unintentionally start a crimp before the bullet was fully seated.  The actual crimp is then done by the Redding profile crimp die.  That process helped produce more consistent results.

I ordered up another bullet sizing die in .429 that I will run some bullets through just to see if that makes a difference from those run through the .430 sizer. 

For those few rounds that still didn't want to chamber in the cylinder, I used the 'pull the decapping pin out and run them into the sizing die' trick.  I know that also sizes the bullet down, but I'm setting them aside in a practice box so not overly worried about accuracy.  I'll see if I get better results the next time I reload those rounds.

Thanks again everyone for the input.  I know this topic has been covered before, but since there are always newer shooters taking up this cartridge, the info just has to get passed along.

Johnny

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