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Inconvenient Facts part 1 and 2. You decide?


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I can see them in the future, being of great potential. But, the infrastructure and technology is probably still at least a quarter century away.

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Nice to see someone being realistic about the foolishness. 

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Good points in the last minute or so of the 2nd video.  A few good points sprinkled throughout, and lots of hedges they can point to and say, "See! We're not REALLY bashing EVs! We say some sort of nice things about them."

 

But overall just as biased, distorted, and ignorant as the "green" idjits who say that EVs are a cure-all. Picking the most extreme points that can be found.  And, oh!  Those poor CHILDREN!  Yeah, working as slaves under horrible conditions.  Which they would be doing in some other industry if not in that mine.   Look up "coal breaker 1900" sometime.

 

100,000 miles to hit the break even point?  Until this the highest I've seen was about 35,000 and most estimates are between 15,000 and 30,000.  I think Norway hits it at something under 10,000.

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EV's have their place for nitch needs and purposes. Isn't for me, but that's okay. 

 

As far the dream of 2035 is concerned...:lol::lol::lol:

 

The one and only truism (very briefly touched on) within either video is that the existing electrical grid/infrastructure cannot handle the increased electrical load...period. There is no way in hell that the grid can, or will be, updated with additional generating facilities and complete grid overall/enhancements by 2035 or even 2040. Even with fast tracking environmental permits/approvals, property acquisitions and infrastructure improvements. No Way, No How...Ain't going to happen.

 

Both videos are very presumptive and misleading. If this happens, if that happens...bulls***. 

 

It's all about big money making even more big money. Don't kid yourself into thinking anything different.

 

The above is not paid for by any political party and is strictly the opinion of me.

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If we could just build some nuclear power plants to help power these EVs, that would be wonderful. :D

 

Cold weather operation of EVs pretty much turns me completely off to them where I live now. I already have a seasonal car. It’s called a Mazda MX-5 Miata. 

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I just don’t trust them yet, I drive too much to rely on re-charging them plus they’re too expensive right now. I get about 30 mpg on my Buick Encore that’s good enough for me. It’s been really dependable also. 

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8 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Good points in the last minute or so of the 2nd video.  A few good points sprinkled throughout, and lots of hedges they can point to and say, "See! We're not REALLY bashing EVs! We say some sort of nice things about them."

 

But overall just as biased, distorted, and ignorant as the "green" idjits who say that EVs are a cure-all. Picking the most extreme points that can be found.  And, oh!  Those poor CHILDREN!  Yeah, working as slaves under horrible conditions.  Which they would be doing in some other industry if not in that mine.   Look up "coal breaker 1900" sometime.

 

100,000 miles to hit the break even point?  Until this the highest I've seen was about 35,000 and most estimates are between 15,000 and 30,000.  I think Norway hits it at something under 10,000.

I didn’t see any distortions. Norway gets most of its electricity from hydropower so yeah an EV there breaks even in terms of emissions much sooner than an EV in a country where most energy is from coal.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I didn’t see any distortions. Norway gets most of its electricity from hydropower so yeah an EV there breaks even in terms of emissions much sooner than an EV in a country where most energy is from coal.

 

You just pointed out a distortion.   Thank you.

 

Only 16% of US electric power comes from coal.  Which technology isn't stalled at 1939 levels as both "greens" and the EV haters imply.

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12 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

You just pointed out a distortion.   Thank you.

 

Only 16% of US electric power comes from coal.  Which technology isn't stalled at 1939 levels as both "greens" and the EV haters imply.

And where does the rest of the electricity come from? If I'm not mistaken, only about another 12% comes from your "renewable" sources, and no more than that from nuclear. What about the rest? And that's just U.S. production. The rest of the world isn't NEARLY as "green" as we are in their production of electricity. 

And I'll say it again, nobody here "hates" EVs, we just realize that they are not the be all end all of vehicle propulsion. No matter how you slice it, we aren't producing anywhere close to enough electricity to power all the EVs that politicians think that we should have. 

In the videos, Stossel even mentions the Labor Day announcement by Newsom that California EV owners not charge their EVs over the weekend because THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE CAPACITY. What are they going to do when there MORE EVs. The same idiots that want to eliminate Gas cars won't let anybody build more power plants. Where do they think the additional electricity is going to come from, when we don't have enough now? 

And another thing, Stossel doesn't even mention battery life. Those batteries on average last about 6 or 7 years, and then have to be replaced, starting the process of everything THAT entails all over again. So the whole "pollution evens out" thing goes out the window. On top of that, DISPOSING of those batteries pollutes as much as producing them.

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8 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

You just pointed out a distortion.   Thank you.

 

Only 16% of US electric power comes from coal.  Which technology isn't stalled at 1939 levels as both "greens" and the EV haters imply.

Lol! Sorry, but no. Norway is a very tiny part of worldwide power generation.

 

Over 60% of US power comes from fossil fuels. Worldwide that number rises to closer to 70%, so there you go. 
 

I’m not going to ‘hate’ EV until some ignorant greenie tries to take away my ICE vehicle and make me drive around in some overgrown toaster.

 

EVs and the whole electrification movement is a scam.

 

You haven’t mentioned a single distortion, just made accusations. So, what are the distortions?

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9 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

And another thing, Stossel doesn't even mention battery life. Those batteries on average last about 6 or 7 years, and then have to be replaced, starting the process of everything THAT entails all over again. So the whole "pollution evens out" thing goes out the window. On top of that, DISPOSING of those batteries pollutes as much as producing them.

If you want to see what 10 years down the road looks like, cruise the Volt forums.  Those cars are now approaching 10+ years in use and propulsion batteries are having a lot of issues.  Replacing them is often exceeding the worth of the vehicle.  This will change the used vehicle market as used ev’s won’t be worth much due to needing expensive batteries.  Unlike a 10 year old ice, which might have 100k miles.  It’s good for another 100-200k without major expense.  
 

I am not against ev’s but can see that todays tech is not ready to replace ice.  Heck I even sold both ev’s I owned and have not bought another.   One of the problems I see is the people making the rules don’t live in corner case use areas.  They live in temperate climates with large cities.  That’s an area that works well for ev’s.  Try living in the Midwest 30-60 miles from a major metro area and see how an ev works in winter. 
 

grid capacity is not straight forward as to having enough.  If the cars all charge at night, plenty of capacity.  The problem become daytime fast charging.  This can quickly overwhelm the grid.   Fortunately most users don’t need to use daytime fast charging often.  One easy way to force the issue would be to charge different amounts for when you charge. Make it very expensive as it should be to charge mid day and you won’t need to do much to the grid to accommodate the additional cars.  But by doing so you will make owning an ev even more expensive.  

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I own an EV.  A GoTrax scooter.  I use it when I'm fishing.  The lake where we live is about 3 miles in circumference.  The scooter has a max speed of 20 mph and a top range of about 25 miles, perfect for a weekend of cruising around the lake, much more economical than cranking up my 6.2 liter V8 Camaro just to drive a mile or two.

 

Having said that, I have zero interest in a slow to charge, expensive, low resale value and limited range EV for driving.  In one of those I couldn't go to two of the four monthly matches I attend without searching for a charge station, hoping it actually works, then sitting there forever twiddling my thumbs waiting for it to recharge.  Not to mention there are zero EVs that would give me the fun driving a 455 horsepower V8 does.

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EV's have their place and their use, and someday may totally replace ICE vehicles, but that day is not now nor will it likely be during my lifetime, even if I manage to squeak out another 30+ years and make 100.  But, having spent a 40 year career in the technology fields, who know what will pop out of the laboratories and businesses in the future.  Maybe this??

 

 

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But for what I can only believe are political reasons, EV's are the ONLY technology being pushed and that usually results in the suppression of other technologies that have just as much potential, and possibly even better potential, being squashed.  Why aren't they pushing the Hybrid technologies like the Prius uses?  That technology has the flexibility to be powered by gas, diesel, or hydrogen engines, it provides the quick refueling capability we have all become used to having, and greatly increases the MPG of the vehicles while at the same time reducing pollution.  They should be pushing that technology as a bridge until the grid can support all of the EVs they are pushing, assuming that EV's ever reach a point of providing the same type of service as ICE vehicles.  As Cypress Sun said, and he KNOWS, it will be decades before the grid can handle what the .Gov is pushing on us NOW.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against EVs.  I own a Hybrid Prius, but I also own a Suburban.  I use the Prius around town as a daily driver, and occasionally use it for long trips, but it is unsuited for hauling a trailer, or a family and all of their gear on an extended trip.  Maybe, when I can buy an EV 4X4 Suburban, for less than the cost of a house, and I can drive it 1,000 miles in 15 hours, including recharge time, I might consider it, but until then, I will stick with the combo of vehicles I have.

 

 

P.S. Edit to add, I do own an EV Gator that I use around our property and haul (with my Suburban) to the club to use during Cowboy Setup and Teardown as well as other range work.  It's powerful, it's quiet, it's pollution free (because the electrons come out of the little holes in those plastic things in the wall for free, right?) and it does the jobs I need it to do.  But, I had to replace the batteries last year at $1,500.00+ for the eight 6V golf cart batteries, and even with perfect care, they will need to be replaced again in 5-7 years.  It takes 6-8 hours for a full charge, but I do get a full day of running around maybe 3-4 hours of actual use, on it before it needs a charge, but if I needed it to run 8 hours straight, it would have to be a gas or diesel powered vehicle to be useful.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:


 

grid capacity is not straight forward as to having enough.  If the cars all charge at night, plenty of capacity.  The problem become daytime fast charging.  This can quickly overwhelm the grid.   Fortunately most users don’t need to use daytime fast charging often.  One easy way to force the issue would be to charge different amounts for when you charge. Make it very expensive as it should be to charge mid day and you won’t need to do much to the grid to accommodate the additional cars.  But by doing so you will make owning an ev even more expensive.  

 

All local, regional and national electrical grids START with power generation facilities and END with the individual user. Easy to figure out, right? Wrong!

 

The electrical grid is much more than the power plants and end user. It's everything in-between also. Many folks don't realize that most of the lines, transformers, distribution facilities and the like, are already over burdened with present day power consumption. It already doesn't take too much to overtax the existing grid, just look at Texas, California, New York and many other locales during certain weather events. The present day electrical grid simply cannot handle the existing load, let alone the added load of EV's and there's nothing in the works for upgrading/updating the grid. Even if there was, there's no way that it could be completed in a completely unrealistic 12 year timeframe fantasy.

 

The assumption that EV owners would only charge their vehicles at night is a false premise. It is true that the majority of EV owners would charge their vehicles when they got home after work, along with during the thermostat down to cool the house off (or heat it up), cook their evening meal, take their evening shower, etc. The load would be shifted from commercial locations to residential locations in which the grid is already taxed out.

 

Making it "very expensive" to charge "mid day" doesn't solve anything. All it would do is inflate the cost of already outrageously priced electrical usage for everyone, it wouldn't solve anything although I guess separate "EV" metering could be installed...at additional individual costs of course.

 

I've stated it before and I'll state it again...I have nothing against EV's or their owners. If an EV owner is happy with their vehicle, that's great, I'm happy for them. What I'm not happy about is the complete lack of foresight and planning to make the EV "fantasy" reality. I'm also not happy with being force fed the BS that EV's will solve all of the planet's problems, they won't. What really gets me PO'd is the fact that all of the costs of the EV fantasy will be passed along to the end consumer...be it in the form of higher electric bills, tax assessments or other endless consumer costs. If anyone thinks that it's hard to make ends meet now...just wait...more hardships are on the way.

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Who's going to pay for the roads. Gas taxes do now. Do you honestly think EV owners will belly up? Doubt it, they already think they're saving the world as huge trucks haul coal to the aged power stations. We'll be back to horses until Greta bitches about the methane. The earth has been changing for millions of years and now all of sudden we need to stop it. Good Luck with that!

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47 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Who's going to pay for the roads. Gas taxes do now. Do you honestly think EV owners will belly up? Doubt it, they already think they're saving the world as huge trucks haul coal to the aged power stations. We'll be back to horses until Greta bitches about the methane. The earth has been changing for millions of years and now all of sudden we need to stop it. Good Luck with that!

 

For some reason, your post reminded me of the "Show him your badge" joke.:D

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2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Who's going to pay for the roads. Gas taxes do now. Do you honestly think EV owners will belly up? Doubt it, they already think they're saving the world as huge trucks haul coal to the aged power stations. We'll be back to horses until Greta bitches about the methane. The earth has been changing for millions of years and now all of sudden we need to stop it. Good Luck with that!

 

Road taxes will be paid by an annual assessment on your vehicle via a Mileage Tax.  It has already been discussed in several state governments and will be implemented at some point, you can bet on it.  And it won't just apply to EV's, it will apply to everyone.  You think that .Gov is going to give up the money they make charging folks to have their cars "Smog Tested" every year (in MD it's every 2 years) because everyone is driving an EV?  Do you think they will exempt EVs from an annual "Inspection" of some kind?  Not hardly, .Gov never let's go of a money train, never.

 

You will either get a separate tax bill, or it will be paid as part of your registration fee, but I suspect it will be put forth as some sort of pay-as-you go thing, possibly as part of the Charging Fee, which could easily be configured as part of any charging station, even a home based one.  Doing some simple math,

 

Average person drives 12,000 miles per year.

Average vehicle gets 30MPG

Thus Average person uses 400 gallons per year.

Maryland charges about $0.427 per gallon, Fed adds $0.183.  Assuming I got the right numbers from the internet, that's $0.61 per gallon.

Average Maryland driver thus pays $244.00 per year in gas taxes.

 

I suspect that you will just be asked to pay that at the time of inspection for mileage use, along with the "appropriate" fee to have someone connect a dongle to your car to record the mileage in Big Brothers Computer....

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12 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

Road taxes will be paid by an annual assessment on your vehicle via a Mileage Tax.  It has already been discussed in several state governments and will be implemented at some point, you can bet on it.  And it won't just apply to EV's, it will apply to everyone.  You think that .Gov is going to give up the money they make charging folks to have their cars "Smog Tested" every year (in MD it's every 2 years) because everyone is driving an EV?  Do you think they will exempt EVs from an annual "Inspection" of some kind?  Not hardly, .Gov never let's go of a money train, never.

 

You will either get a separate tax bill, or it will be paid as part of your registration fee, but I suspect it will be put forth as some sort of pay-as-you go thing, possibly as part of the Charging Fee, which could easily be configured as part of any charging station, even a home based one.  Doing some simple math,

 

Average person drives 12,000 miles per year.

Average vehicle gets 30MPG

Thus Average person uses 400 gallons per year.

Maryland charges about $0.427 per gallon, Fed adds $0.183.  Assuming I got the right numbers from the internet, that's $0.61 per gallon.

Average Maryland driver thus pays $244.00 per year in gas taxes.

 

I suspect that you will just be asked to pay that at the time of inspection for mileage use, along with the "appropriate" fee to have someone connect a dongle to your car to record the mileage in Big Brothers Computer....

Ohio already charged $100 extra for a hybrid and $300 for an EV. This is in addition to the plates/stickers charge which is average $65 

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35 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Ohio already charged $100 extra for a hybrid and $300 for an EV. This is in addition to the plates/stickers charge which is average $65 

Maryland is $135 for vehicles under 3,700 lbs and $187 for vehicles over 3,700 lbs, every other year.  We pay $14.00 every other year for smog inspections, but there is no annual safety inspection nor is there personal property tax paid on the vehicles, just the 6% sales tax at purchase.  It's a racket, but it's the only racket in town...

 

To date, there has been no EV charge that I am aware of, but it has been discussed constantly.  The most dangerous time of year around here is the 90 days that the Maryland General Assembly is in session.  Just a couple more weeks to go (April 10th, 2023) and we will know how abused we will be until next year. :wacko:

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15 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Only 16% of US electric power comes from coal.  Which technology isn't stalled at 1939 levels as both "greens" and the EV haters imply.

The majority of our power comes from fossil fuels or natural gas. Still putting stuff in the air. No one with any knowledge out there says we can provide 100% of our power from wind turbines or solar panels?

We aren't allowed to build nuclear plants or dams so how ar ewe supposed to get off coal, fossil, and gas?

 

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16 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The majority of our power comes from fossil fuels or natural gas. Still putting stuff in the air. No one with any knowledge out there says we can provide 100% of our power from wind turbines or solar panels?

We aren't allowed to build nuclear plants or dams so how ar ewe supposed to get off coal, fossil, and gas?

 

 

First, you might have noticed that I've never even hinted that I agree with the idjits who think wind and solar can meet all our power needs.

 

Second I was addressing a specific comment that  we " get most of our energy from coal.

 

19 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

STOP POSTING THINGS LIKE THIS!!  You'll upset Subdeacon Joe!

 

Only thing that upsets me about things like that is that I expect people here to be above the mental, moral, emotional, and ethical level of The View and AOC.

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13 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

First, you might have noticed that I've never even hinted that I agree with the idjits who think wind and solar can meet all our power needs.

 

Second I was addressing a specific comment that  we " get most of our energy from coal.

 

 

Only thing that upsets me about things like that is that I expect people here to be above the mental, moral, emotional, and ethical level of The View and AOC.

Well, now that's a pretty doggone low bar!!:P

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What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?

In 2022, about 4,243 billion kilowatthours (kWh) (or about 4.24 trillion kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale electricity generation facilities in the United States.1 About 60% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels—coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 18% was from nuclear energy, and about 22% was from renewable energy sources.

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5 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

All local, regional and national electrical grids START with power generation facilities and END with the individual user. Easy to figure out, right? Wrong!

 

The electrical grid is much more than the power plants and end user. It's everything in-between also. Many folks don't realize that most of the lines, transformers, distribution facilities and the like, are already over burdened with present day power consumption. It already doesn't take too much to overtax the existing grid, just look at Texas, California, New York and many other locales during certain weather events. The present day electrical grid simply cannot handle the existing load, let alone the added load of EV's and there's nothing in the works for upgrading/updating the grid. Even if there was, there's no way that it could be completed in a completely unrealistic 12 year timeframe fantasy.

 

The assumption that EV owners would only charge their vehicles at night is a false premise. It is true that the majority of EV owners would charge their vehicles when they got home after work, along with during the thermostat down to cool the house off (or heat it up), cook their evening meal, take their evening shower, etc. The load would be shifted from commercial locations to residential locations in which the grid is already taxed out.

 

Making it "very expensive" to charge "mid day" doesn't solve anything. All it would do is inflate the cost of already outrageously priced electrical usage for everyone, it wouldn't solve anything although I guess separate "EV" metering could be installed...at additional individual costs of course.

 

I've stated it before and I'll state it again...I have nothing against EV's or their owners. If an EV owner is happy with their vehicle, that's great, I'm happy for them. What I'm not happy about is the complete lack of foresight and planning to make the EV "fantasy" reality. I'm also not happy with being force fed the BS that EV's will solve all of the planet's problems, they won't. What really gets me PO'd is the fact that all of the costs of the EV fantasy will be passed along to the end consumer...be it in the form of higher electric bills, tax assessments or other endless consumer costs. If anyone thinks that it's hard to make ends meet now...just wait...more hardships are on the way.

Just think of  the Traffic on interstates during the Day Time hours. Just think if and how many of them need to re-charge during daylight hours adding to the fragile grids. Not everyone works days, so many won't be charging at night. I can see brown outs and blackouts coming as more EVs hit the roads. 

There is a used Tesla that's been sitting in the Used Car lot for several months now at a Used Car Dealership. Don't know the year but me and wife always wonder if it will ever sell and the Dealer took a big chance getting it.

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3 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Only thing that upsets me about things like that is that I expect people here to be above the mental, moral, emotional, and ethical level of The View and AOC.

Again, nobody here gets that way. We just don't think that EVs are The Answer. The reality is simply that the technology isn't here yet. You might have read that others contributing to this thread OWN EVs, or HAVE owned them. We understand that they have their place, but even if it fits our lifestyle we want to choose for ourselves, NOT have them forced on us by some bureaucrat that's being chauffeured around in an armored SUV with guards armed with guns that they say we shouldn't have. 

 

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my immediate decision is to wait and see , much like the origins of the car ill watch and see how it really develops before i dive headlong in --ill be useing more than my normal cautions because the car developed on the open market - everything was directed to efficiency and economics in that real , this is getting promoted and supported as well as subsidized by our government [ our tax money] there are not the normal incentives to accomplish the correct goals here ..............these efforts are being paid for with our money - ill wait and see how it plays out , i got time ..........

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12 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Again, nobody here gets that way. We just don't think that EVs are The Answer. The reality is simply that the technology isn't here yet. You might have read that others contributing to this thread OWN EVs, or HAVE owned them. We understand that they have their place, but even if it fits our lifestyle we want to choose for ourselves, NOT have them forced on us by some bureaucrat that's being chauffeured around in an armored SUV with guards armed with guns that they say we shouldn't have. 

 

+10000

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