WTC

[Itchy Trigger]

35 minutes ago, BradyT88 said:

I'm guessing this was a monthly match and the scores aren't the end of the world. 

it was a three day annual event and the scores are never world ending, even at EOT.

[Tennessee williams]

Question: What is the penalty for not following the T.O. command for anything other than "stop" or "cease fire" (and squib may be synonymous with stop)? Those 2 commands are the only ones I can find a penalty for not following in the shb. Of course I see the part that says T.O. commands should be followed in RO1 or RO2, but I don't actually see a penalty for not following it. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

40 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Question: What is the penalty for not following the T.O. command for anything other than "stop" or "cease fire" (and squib may be synonymous with stop)? Those 2 commands are the only ones I can find a penalty for not following in the shb. Of course I see the part that says T.O. commands should be followed in RO1 or RO2, but I don't actually see a penalty for not following it. 

None that I am aware of - but I would offer that safety directives are commands whereas stage instruction directives are not.

 

I think we are likely heading towards a future of:

"Due to the discrepancies in the skillsets of TO's and to attempt to achieve a consistent level of assistance for all shooters/ posses; other than safety related commands - the TO/ spotters/ posse members are to refrain from issuing directives or assistance during the course of fire"

 

"In the event that a shooter requests assistance during the stage - the allowable instruction should simply be Complete the stage to the best of your abilities - the only addition might be a direction of engage the appropriate targets with appropriate firearm.

 

This would be the logical next step from the current requirement that TO's not catch falling firearms.

[Equanimous Phil]

On the one hand I can comprehend the intention why under the current rules only one procedural penalty per stage can be given. On the other hand this causes all these issues, imho.

 

The shooting scenarios and stage instructions are a major part of this game. That's why we give and get Ps for not following them. After earning a P in a shooting string, if the shooter continues other shooting strings, instructions, locations etc. of a stage other than the way it was intended and gains an advantage, it's always a SOG in my opinion, because a "smart" shooter will always claim (s)he forgot everything and it wasn't willfully. If a shooter is really that lost, it's not a condition firearms should be handled...

 

Please consider that in other shooting sports it's handled quite differently. In IPSC (and USPSA) you get a P per occurence, e.g. shooting from one location stepping over the fault line. But if the shooter gains a significant advantage, there's one P for each shot while faulting. That may look harsh to a CAS shooter, but at the end of the day, it's a much fairer solution with less discussion. And you still need to stay completely focused and know what to do during the stage after getting a P.

 

[Fretless]

The argument that: because a shooter already earned a P they no longer deserve a reshoot, when the TO's instructions cause them to make an extra trip across the stage to do something that WILL NOT help them, is nothing short of vindictive.

 

That's not the spirit of the rules/the game we play.  The instruction given added time.  Even more importantly, by forcing a change in guns it, decreased safety.  An option to reshoot is appropriate.  An option to reshoot is supported by the rules.

 

The fact that the shooter already made a mistake is not relevant.

The level of the match is not relevant.  

[John Kloehr]

Been watching and thinking on this thread.

 

I'm setting aside the actual quote above. Considered this instruction from the TO in the middle of the shotgun string, P already earned:

 

"Shoot pistols from window 3." 

 

Shooter may understand it two ways:

 

"[Remember to] shoot pistols from window 3."

 

Or:

 

"Shoot pistols from window 3 [now]."

 

Decision is on the shooter to safely interpret the guidance. It may be an ambiguous instruction, but is not bad coaching IMO.

 

But when I consider if the words in brackets were actually stated by the TO, I consider "remember" good coaching (where none is required), and "now" as bad coaching earning a reshoot.

 

That the P does not carry forward... Well, that is the rule and could benefit the shooter on a reshoot, but is not SOG.

 

I'm lucky to make the bottom of the middle third in any sport I shoot in, so I would not really care if it happened when I was on stage, but might respectfully ask for the reshoot in the "now" case just because I would like to throw some more lead. My actual time and rank relative to others is just not that important to me.

 

 

[Itchy Trigger]

32 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

, but might respectfully ask for the reshoot in the "now" case just because I would like to throw some more lead.

That is very close to the shooters perspective. If monthly request a reshoot because obviously needs more practice on that specific stage, but since an annual to just let the time stand and prevent potential conflict .

 

Shooter was still able to win category, but did not know it at the time.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'm going to let this one go after this comment, but I do feel compelled to ask:
 

How is telling a shooter to do something he no longer has to do AND which will cost him stage time 'assisting' him? 

 

What benefit does the shooter get from that instruction? 

 

What cost does following that instruction impose on him?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

-) While shooter is shucking and reloading the TO realizes he hasn't fired his pistols and tells the shooter to put down shotgun and go back to Position 03 and shoot the pistols.

 

RESHOOT rules:

- Improper coaching that either impedes the shooters progress or results in a procedural penalty may be grounds for a reshoot.

RO1 p.9

 

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:

- Prop or match equipment failure

- A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter (RO Interference)

- Timer failure or unrecorded time

RO1 p.10

[Equanimous Phil]

I fully agree that in this particular WTC it was bad coaching and a reshoot would have been appropriate.

 

But in general, where does this conclusion come from:

41 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

to do something he no longer has to do

 

Isn't that exactly "Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage" (SHB 27.4 p.23)? Yes, he can't get anymore Ps on that stage, but he is still obliged to the stage instructions, and shall not willfully ignore them.

[Captain Bill Burt]

28 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I fully agree that in this particular WTC it was bad coaching and a reshoot would have been appropriate.

 

But in general, where does this conclusion come from:

 

Isn't that exactly "Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage" (SHB 27.4 p.23)? Yes, he can't get anymore Ps on that stage, but he is still obliged to the stage instructions, and shall not willfully ignore them.

I don't believe the shooter was willfully ignoring the instructions to gain an advantage as it would be pretty hard to overcome the 10 second penalty he picked up. It sounds like he forgot that pistols were next, which is what caused the P in the first place.  At that point the shooter is probably blissfully unaware that he's even incurred a penalty.

[Equanimous Phil]

23 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't believe the shooter was willfully ignoring the instructions to gain an advantage as it would be pretty hard to overcome the 10 second penalty he picked up. It sounds like he forgot that pistols were next, which is what caused the P in the first place.  At that point the shooter is probably blissfully unaware that he's even incurred a penalty.

I fully agree with your statement. In this case, he's not willfully ignoring stage instructions and probably unaware of the already earned penalty. But, he still had to follow stage instructions, because there is no such situation where you no longer have to follow stage instructions. Or am I wrong?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I fully agree with your statement. In this case, he's not willfully ignoring stage instructions and probably unaware of the already earned penalty. But, he still had to follow stage instructions, because there is no such situation where you no longer have to follow stage instructions. Or am I wrong?

 

It wasn't necessary to "impede the shooter's progress" at that point by stopping him in the middle of a shooting string.
Advising the shooter to move to the proper location to shoot the pistols AFTER finishing with the shotgun would have been PROPER coaching.
 

[Whiskey Kid]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:18 PM, Ranger Dan said:

TO should have offered a reshoot. I have offered reshoots for less. Been offered reshoots for less.

It's not at the TO discretion to offer the reshoot, its the match officials.  TO could suggest a reshoot be given, but you are supposed to record the time and then get permission for the reshoot.  Also, I heard evidence to this WTC after the fact and unfortunately the situation as written here was not what was explained to me by the RO instructor involved.  

 

WK 

[Ranger Dan]

29 minutes ago, Whiskey Kid said:

It's not at the TO discretion to offer the reshoot, its the match officials.  TO could suggest a reshoot be given, but you are supposed to record the time and then get permission for the reshoot.  Also, I heard evidence to this WTC after the fact and unfortunately the situation as written here was not what was explained to me as it occurred.  

 

WK 

Would you please cite the rule that the TO cannot grant a reshoot without "match officials" permission?

[Whiskey Kid]

8 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Would you please cite the rule that the TO cannot grant a reshoot without "match officials" permission?

Pretty much standardized procedure at sanctioned matches that reshoots must be given permission by a match official.  I have yet to be at one that that wasn't the case.  It is to ensure that rules are enforced consistently for the whole match, not just how a posse or TO feels.

[Ranger Dan]

32 minutes ago, Whiskey Kid said:

Pretty much standardized procedure at sanctioned matches that reshoots must be given permission by a match official.  I have yet to be at one that that wasn't the case.  It is to ensure that rules are enforced consistently for the whole match, not just how a posse or TO feels.

Thank you, have not heard of that "standardized procedure" before. As for the call, I stand by my assessment of what was written by the OP, improper coaching is justification for a reshoot, it's got nothing to do with how the TO feels.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Whiskey Kid said:

It's not at the TO discretion to offer the reshoot, its the match officials.  TO could suggest a reshoot be given, but you are supposed to record the time and then get permission for the reshoot.  Also, I heard evidence to this WTC after the fact and unfortunately the situation as written here was not what was explained to me by the RO instructor involved.  

 

WK 

Really?  The TO is the CRO of the stage.  And is the initial judge of what calls need to be make and makes such call to the Scorekeeper.  During the Posse Marshall walk thru a Match Director may make a ruling that for "his" match a TO cannot make that ruling, (I've heard that before, citing time constraints).  But... usually the Posse Marshall can,  is right there, and makes that call.  In fact, often the Posse Marshall is the TO.  However, I don't find that as a general SASS rule.  In fact, for certain instances the default will be that a reshoot is given, as per the Range Operations guide in the ROII Manual.   The last Match Administration guide I've seen is from 2012, and does not address this issue.  

[Whiskey Kid]

3 minutes ago, Griff said:

Really?  The TO is the CRO of the stage.  And is the initial judge of what calls need to be make and makes such call to the Scorekeeper.  During the Posse Marshall walk thru a Match Director may make a ruling that for "his" match a TO cannot make that ruling, (I've heard that before, citing time constraints).  But... usually the Posse Marshall can,  is right there, and makes that call.  In fact, often the Posse Marshall is the TO.  However, I don't find that as a general SASS rule.  In fact, for certain instances the default will be that a reshoot is given, as per the Range Operations guide in the ROII Manual.   The last Match Administration guide I've seen is from 2012, and does not address this issue.  

Yup really.  Every sanctioned match I have been to in the last 5+ years, maybe 10, the direction to the posse marshals is put the time down and get permission from the reshoot from a match official.  This includes TX ST, LA ST, Regionals, Nationals and Worlds, but you do you, that's just my experience.  BTW, been a match director before and PM'ed plenty at all levels and I haven't seen that process not followed.

[Griff]

Yep, that's where I heard it, a "sanctioned" match... but still can't find it written anywhere.  For the majority of shooters that don't do "sanctioned" matches, unless the match is just overcrowded with officials, I see no need to consult anyone at my club if I feel a shooter is warranted a reshoot.  Done, end of discussion... if I'm the TO, that is!  

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

3 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

Would you please cite the rule that the TO cannot grant a reshoot without "match officials" permission?

Hi there Ranger Dan

while I do not have a “rule” stating that reshoots must be approved by a match RO at (then) Winter Range (now EOT) for matches prior to 2013, I do have in my posse marshal notes, as a stage convention, for every year from 2014 to present the verbiage that “all reshoots must be approved by a match RO”. 2014 was my first year as a posse marshal so it may have been used in years prior to 2014 but I don’t know. Stage conventions have historically been used to identify standards for all matches, unusual range rules or exceptions to SASS rules for a particular event or to codify a particular (non)penalty for a specific stage ie convention 2 round over berm is no call rather than a match or stage DQ as at some ranges. 
Beginning in 2016 that verbiage was in  all the shooter’s stage book conventions under “reshoots “ including the 2023 EOT book. 
Regards

    
Gateway Kid