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Is it normal to have to clean a SAA replica revolver after 80 shots (using smokeless powder, not blackpowder)?


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24 minutes ago, watab kid said:

if this was a new revolver there may have been chit in it from the factory that worked loose and jambed things up , shouldnt hapen , i would get it looked at or return it , i agree with post above that thousands of rounds should work without issue , that said - our low power cowboy rounds could carbon up the gap between the cylinder and barrel if its real tight , 

 

Yes, my far more experienced than me buddy immediately said that the forcing cone and front of the cylinder are probably getting a layer of fouling that is sufficient to put considerabek drag on the cylinder. He has a S&W 625 with a ,0055" gap between cylinder and forcing cone that gums up after just a few cylinders of firing, and cleaning that area frees it up.

 

Jim G

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Skip the grease altogether.  Grease attacks dirt.  Clean that crap off and spray the internals with a good gun oil like Ballistol or Hornady One Shot.  The only guns I use gease on are Colt cap and balls on the arbor.  Everything else gets a shot of oil and like others have said I only clean them sporatically.  They run for months just fine.

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4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I primarily shoot BP and have fired over 100 rounds through my revolvers without cleaning beyond a quick wipe down with some Ballistol and have never had any issues.

 

When it comes to smokeless I've fired hundreds of rounds with no issues. 

 

My first guess is the white lithium grease you are using is not up to the task. I use Mobil-1 full synthetic red grease. It is BP compatible and will not break down even under the harshest shooting conditions. In firearms that I might shoot BP in, I use Ballistol anywhere oil is required. For guns that I never shoot BP in I use Hornady One Shot. 

 

Not to dismiss your experience, but I've used both Mobile-1 synthetic red and White Lithium. I personally prefer the White Lithium a tip I got from Joe West years ago. Use it in rifle and pistols, and i shoot real BP all the time. I doubt either are the problem in this case.

 

I suspect a dirty cylinder face from that nasty heathen smokeyless Trail Boss; it's almost as clean as my Real Black Powder.. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Skip the grease altogether.  Grease attacks dirt.  Clean that crap off and spray the internals with a good gun oil like Ballistol or Hornady One Shot.  The only guns I use gease on are Colt cap and balls on the arbor.  Everything else gets a shot of oil and like others have said I only clean them sporatically.  They run for months just fine.

 

I've always been told use oil for rotating parts, and grease for rubbing parts, but hey, you guys are experienced CAS shooters firing the same kind of replica handgun I am, so I put a lot of weight on your recommendations. I'll try the oil-only approach and see how that goes.

 

Jim G

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3 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Not to dismiss your experience, but I've used both Mobile-1 synthetic red and White Lithium. I personally prefer the White Lithium a rip I got from Joe West years ago. Use it in rifle and pistols, and i shoot real BP all the time. I doubt either are the problem in this case.

 

I suspect a dirty cylinder face from that nasty heathen smokeless. Trail Boss; it's almost as clean as my Real Black Powder.. 

 

 

 

 

So Trail Boss leaves a bad residue? Hmm, that IS interesting since there was no problem firing the first 60 shots that were TiteGroup powered, but after 25 or so rTrail Boss powered shots, the problem manifested.

 

Both of my replica Peacemaker revolvers are new to me, so I don't really have any meaningful experience with them.

 

Jim G

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1 minute ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

So Trail Boss leaves a bad residue? Hmm, that IS interesting since there was no problem firing the first 60 shots that were TiteGroup powered, but after 25 or so rTrail Boss powered shots, the problem manifested.

 

Both of my replica Peacemaker revolvers are new to me, so I don't really have any meaningful experience with them.

 

Jim G

 

Yes, especially in straight wall cases and 357 cases would probably be worse than 38s.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Yes, especially in straight wall cases and 357 cases would probably be worse than 38s.

 

 

 

Hmmm. Well, I am out of Trail Boss now (it has been discontinued) and into TiteGroup, so the Trail Boss cleanliness is now academic.

 

Jim G

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2 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

Hmmm. Well, I am out of Trail Boss now (it has been discontinued) and into TiteGroup, so the Trail Boss cleanliness is now academic.

 

Jim G

 

Sounds like a good cleaning and a trip to the range is in order. Though I'd suggest a match instead of a normal trip to the range 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Sounds like a good cleaning and a trip to the range is in order. Though I'd suggest a match instead of a normal trip to the range 

 

 

 

A match is not an option - there no matches here until at least April - too cold and March is also statistically our snowiest month! And, I am far from being ready to attend a match as a shooter anyway, since I don't yet have a decent handload, each of my handguns has a POI far different than my POA, and I am still figuring out what kind of grip (shooter's hand grip, not the wooden gun grips) works best for me with these non-modern shaped handguns!

 

But yes, I need a few more rnage sessions to sort through "everything going on all at once". :mellow:

 

Jim G

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My first match was back in 2011. I purchased my rifle and shotgun at the match and competed with them. 

12 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

A match is not an option - there no matches here until at least April - too cold and March is also statistically our snowiest month! And, I am far from being ready to attend a match as a shooter anyway, since I don't yet have a decent handload, each of my handguns has a POI far different than my POA, and I am still figuring out what kind of grip (shooter's hand grip, not the wooden gun grips) works best for me with these non-modern shaped handguns!

 

But yes, I need a few more rnage sessions to sort through "everything going on all at once". :mellow:

 

Jim G

When I started reloading I compared the COAL of my reloads to the factory loads I started with by sitting them next to each and laying a bubble level across the tops. Worked like a charm. 

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53 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Skip the grease altogether.  Grease attacks dirt.  Clean that crap off and spray the internals with a good gun oil like Ballistol or Hornady One Shot.  The only guns I use gease on are Colt cap and balls on the arbor.  Everything else gets a shot of oil and like others have said I only clean them sporatically.  They run for months just fine.

 

50 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Not to dismiss your experience, but I've used both Mobile-1 synthetic red and White Lithium. I personally prefer the White Lithium a tip I got from Joe West years ago. Use it in rifle and pistols, and i shoot real BP all the time. I doubt either are the problem in this case.

 

I suspect a dirty cylinder face from that nasty heathen smokeyless Trail Boss; it's almost as clean as my Real Black Powder.. 

 

 

 

When I purchased my Harlan Wolff 1873 Harlan told me using anything other than CLP Breakfree would void my warranty.

 

OTH, when I recently purchased a couple of 1873s from Lefty Wheeler he recommended a white grease, which I purchased.

 

Who’s right? I don’t know. The Wolff rifle gets CLP and the Wheeler rifles get the grease he supplied.

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We really don't run most guns under heavy load.  The lubrication (or even deciding to run dry parts) that we use depends so much on how much tuning and how dirty the environment is where each of us shoot.  Dirty air just about mandates minimal lubing since any oil/grease lube collects dust.  You will figure out what works best for you.   For me, what works best is light Mobil-1 grease on moving parts, Boeshield T9 dry lube on magazine tubes and springs (since they are harder to get to than most other parts).  No oil since it migrates off of parts when there is nothing to hold it there.  Oil is best used in a reservoir/seals/drain case system that can keep a continuous flow of oil getting into the contacts.  IMO.

 

The only hi-tech grease I use now is BattleBorn grease for large caliber semi-autos (M1, M1A, 1911) which have high sliding loads on various parts.

 

good luck, GJ

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This is an old topic, but bears repeating here since several have posted what a dirty powder TB is. I've been shooting TB exclusively in my large caliber smokeless loads for over 12 years, and I've never experienced the soot/dirt others describe. I load exactly at mid-range because that's what gives the best overall performance for my needs. I briefly tried the "race to the bottom" with minimum loads, but it didn't work well for me.

 

The image below shows a .44-40 and .45 cowboy special that have been fired with TB, but not been through the tumbler. This is exactly how they came out of the guns. The .44-40 had a 200 gr bullet, and the .45 a 160 gr. bullet.

 

I suspect those that have issues have been loading at the bottom end of the range with light bullets. Some powders work better than others at that end of the spectrum than others. I see a lot of really filthy smokeless brass at the range that weren't running TB, so I'm reluctant to blame it. 

 

I like TB and will continue using it until my supply runs out. However, I'll be shooting a lot of Goes Goex BP this year, so it may take awhile to run out of TB.  ^_^

 

G1fOaXF.jpg

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

For me, what works best is light Mobil-1 grease on moving parts, Boeshield T9 dry lube on magazine tubes and springs (since they are harder to get to than most other parts).  No oil since it migrates off of parts when there is nothing to hold it there.  Oil is best used in a reservoir/seals/drain case system that can keep a continuous flow of oil getting into the contacts.  IMO.

 

 

Boeshield T9 is a lubricant similar to Hornady One Shot.  They both can be sprayed on and when the carrier evaporates they are dry.  No one is talking (at least I hope) about 30 weight engine oil so the analogy to an engine crank case is a little off base.

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4 hours ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

Yes, my far more experienced than me buddy immediately said that the forcing cone and front of the cylinder are probably getting a layer of fouling that is sufficient to put considerabek drag on the cylinder. He has a S&W 625 with a ,0055" gap between cylinder and forcing cone that gums up after just a few cylinders of firing, and cleaning that area frees it up.

 

Jim G

Recut the FC to 11*.

.0055 is well within spec.

 

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3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

We really don't run most guns under heavy load.  The lubrication (or even deciding to run dry parts) that we use depends so much on how much tuning and how dirty the environment is where each of us shoot.  Dirty air just about mandates minimal lubing since any oil/grease lube collects dust.  You will figure out what works best for you.   For me, what works best is light Mobil-1 grease on moving parts, Boeshield T9 dry lube on magazine tubes and springs (since they are harder to get to than most other parts).  No oil since it migrates off of parts when there is nothing to hold it there.  Oil is best used in a reservoir/seals/drain case system that can keep a continuous flow of oil getting into the contacts.  IMO.

 

The only hi-tech grease I use now is BattleBorn grease for large caliber semi-autos (M1, M1A, 1911) which have high sliding loads on various parts.

 

good luck, GJ

Agree, with slight off topic caveat  Brand New ARs at least the ones I have built including .458 socoms work best initially sloppy wet.  There seems to be a lot of drag on new bolts, bcgs locking lugs probably due to small burrs after a few mags seem to wear in and function with normal lubrication.

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Black gun lubrication needs are certainly something I know nothing about, liking to hold walnut rather than plastic.

 

good luck, GJ

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7 hours ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

Wow! You are correct! I checked both original boxes and found the 2 screws without the thumbscrew head. I installed them just now. Naturally, my less-than-good Cimarron dealer neglected to mention anything about the screws needing to be replaced with the ones without the thumbscrew head.

 

This is the same dealer who sold me my 1873 rifle with the Cimarron "Original Finish" finish. When I got it home to remove any shipping grease and oil, I discovered via bore camera  (you cannot really view an 1873 barrel bore well without a bore camera) that the bore of the barrel had been chemically attacked (probably by the "Original Finish" process being done incorrectly at the factory without protecting the bore) and had multiple instances of multi-coloured ugly corrosion with significant pitting that did not respond to any type of normal cleaning (lead remover, copper remover, brass brushes, patches, etc). He assured me "this was no problem, just go ahead and shoot with it", and refused to do anything about the "no problem". But when I emailed the bore camera photos to Cimarron, they replied within 20 minutes telling me that the barrel would be replaced under warranty, but it would take "probably a year because Uberti is so busy they can't keep up". It's been 6 months so far. Plus, when I do eventually get the replacement barrel, I'll have to pay a local gunsmith to make the swap since shipping a firearm from Canada back to Cimarron in The U.S., both ways, would take a long time, cost a LOT of money, and would likely be legally an issue since "International". So, I have had no respect for that dealer's attention and ethics right from the get-go.

 

Jim G

 

Heaps of members of my club have discovered rust  etc in their brand new Uberti '73 barrels.

Seems most come from the factory like that, hasn't affected the rifles accuracy, did give them a bit of a start when they saw those initial cleaning patches come out though with red rust though from brand new rifles.

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2 hours ago, Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 said:

Agree, with slight off topic caveat  Brand New ARs at least the ones I have built including .458 socoms work best initially sloppy wet.  There seems to be a lot of drag on new bolts, bcgs locking lugs probably due to small burrs after a few mags seem to wear in and function with normal lubrication.

 

Per DPMS AR pattern rifles SHOULD be run wet. They recommended  30 weight motor oil as the preferred lubricant. The manual that came with my DPMS AR-15 specifically stated in bold letters NOT to use RemOil.

 

In 2007 the US Army ran extensive tests on the M4, M16 and M249 using minimal lubrication as previously recommended and using heavy lubrication. The tests showed that in extremely dusty environments the number of stoppages was reduced by about a factor of 15 when the rifles were heavily lubricated vs lightly lubricated.

 

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/#more

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57 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Per DPMS AR pattern rifles SHOULD be run wet. They recommended  30 weight motor oil as the preferred lubricant. The manual that came with my DPMS AR-15 specifically stated in bold letters NOT to use RemOil.

 

In 2007 the US Army ran extensive tests on the M4, M16 and M249 using minimal lubrication as previously recommended and using heavy lubrication. The tests showed that in extremely dusty environments the number of stoppages was reduced by about a factor of 15 when the rifles were heavily lubricated vs lightly lubricated.

 

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/#more

Wow 20 years after I left Army they changed the Gospel.  Who Knew, Sedalia Dave obviously thanks

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1 minute ago, Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 said:

Wow 20 years after I left Army they changed the Gospel.  Who Knew, Sedalia Dave obviously thanks

 

I'm not sure the Army actually paid attention to their own testing. I believe they are still touting the virtues of CLP. 

 

Here is what a good friend sent me. Since doing this my AR has never had a failure to feed.

 

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1307662675_Lubepoints2.JPG.0397abeb05364b70e991352f238e22d6.JPG

 

1297848209_Lubepoints3.JPG.788754071e9fa4539ec9e74b75e72d4d.JPG

 

 

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well i guess we now know how to lube that matty matell we all have , even if it flys in the face of what we all were told and experienced in the past - sorry not trying to argue , just noticing a lot of changes in thinking in what has been posted in the past , 

 

how did we get from where we were with a 73 to the M16 ? 

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3 hours ago, watab kid said:

 

 

how did we get from where we were with a 73 to the M16 ? 

We tend to meander a lot!:lol:

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18 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

We tend to meander a lot!:lol:

ok , im good with that , i just hate when i get confused these days , i start questioning my sanity and wondering if the dementia or Alzheimer's are going to  materialize , i do have family history that haunts me , im not expecting it ..yet ... one always wonders , glad to know my moment of buffering was not the moment of recognition , i do hope i recognize it when it happens but my experience says not 

 

gettin old aint for sissys ,

beginning of life you know nothing and you learn , the end of life you know and forget , lose track of , im not quite ready for that yet 

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I'm with Pettifogger on this one.  I've been shooting Single Actions since the early 1970's, so I guess that's about 50 years now.  Mostly Rugers, but also some imports as well.  Yes, grease or Crisco on some areas of BP revolvers, but oil only on the SA's when using smokless powders.  And usually a light coat at that.  Some places I'd use light machine oil, and others I'd use 30 weight oil.  I've never had an issue with the SA's binding up when using smokless powder, even after a couple of hundred rounds or so, and clean-up is pretty easy.  anyway, that's been my experience, YMMV.

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I found the cause!

 

Today, I got to the range again with 60 rounds of my TiteGroup handload. No problems. Then, I started to shoot some of my remaining Trail Boss handload. Very soon into that load, I started getting resistance to the cylinder rotating. Because this mimicked what happened at the last range session, I started examining the Trail Boss ammo carefully. I realized that a few of the cartridges had a somewhat high primer!

 

Those primers were not THAT high, but sure enough, the cylinder would not rotate properly with them. I guess they were high enough because the revolver tolerances are not that loose.

 

How did I make ammo with high primers? By using CCI Magnum primers for that batch of ammo, because I THOUGHT I needed to use magnum primers. I presume the Magnum primers are either harder, or a touch higher, or both, than the Federal SP NON-magnum primers I am using with the TiteGroup load, which never binds the cylinder. Even if the CCI primers are ONLY harder, I can see how I might have exerted just not enough "backward" pressure on the Dillon XL750 handle when loading, because I am used to  loading the Federal primers.

 

I THINK my problem is now understood and solved. :)

 

Jim G

 

I'll leave the last couple hundred CCI Mag primers unused for the time being.

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1 hour ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

I found the cause!

 

Today, I got to the range again with 60 rounds of my TiteGroup handload. No problems. Then, I started to shoot some of my remaining Trail Boss handload. Very soon into that load, I started getting resistance to the cylinder rotating. Because this mimicked what happened at the last range session, I started examining the Trail Boss ammo carefully. I realized that a few of the cartridges had a somewhat high primer!

 

Those primers were not THAT high, but sure enough, the cylinder would not rotate properly with them. I guess they were high enough because the revolver tolerances are not that loose.

 

How did I make ammo with high primers? By using CCI Magnum primers for that batch of ammo, because I THOUGHT I needed to use magnum primers. I presume the Magnum primers are either harder, or a touch higher, or both, than the Federal SP NON-magnum primers I am using with the TiteGroup load, which never binds the cylinder. Even if the CCI primers are ONLY harder, I can see how I might have exerted just not enough "backward" pressure on the Dillon XL750 handle when loading, because I am used to  loading the Federal primers.

 

I THINK my problem is now understood and solved. :)

 

Jim G

 

I'll leave the last couple hundred CCI Mag primers unused for the time being.

Just maybe, you should clean the primer pockets. ;)

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No known dimensional differences between Federal and CCI primers.   Federals usually do seat a little easier by feel than CCIs and Winchesters. 

 

Good lesson you had to learn - you ALWAYS want to run a finger over the primers after loading a batch, or stand the loaded rounds on a flat surface and look for wobbles that tell you you have primers proud of the case head.   Revolvers are real picky like that. I check after loading cartridges into a 100 round plastic ammo box.

 

If fact, if you seat all primers to 0.003" below the case head, you will guarantee good function in all actions and make sure you get 100% firing of the primer when struck by pin. 

 

good luck, GJ

 

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Hmmm, I believe you got good advice here real early on about high primers,  right?

 

Quote

Sounds like you might have some high primers.

 

It's one thing to be proud of your reloading.  It's even better to be right in your reloading techniques.

 

But, glad you found your problem.  Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

I guess they were high enough because the revolver tolerances are not that loose.

 

You better hope they are "not that loose."  That is your revolver headspace.

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Just maybe, you should clean the primer pockets. ;)

 

Those cases were first time fired, fresh from the factory. Dirty primer pockets were not the problem. My failure to push the Dillon handle rearward a bit harder than for Federal primers were the problem. I just applied "the same force as I always have", but with the CCI primers, that was not sufficient for 100% of the primers. Maybe 95%, but not 100%.

 

Jim G

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39 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

You better hope they are "not that loose."  That is your revolver headspace.

 

Hmm, something else I did not know. I assumed that for a rimmed cartridge, the headspace ina  revolver is set by the CYLINDER itself, not the REAR gap between the cylinder and the frame. I had noticed that the primer hits were very deep, and the firing pins on these revolvers are very long. So the REAR gap between cylinder and frame is critical too?

 

Jim G

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If the cylinder will spin with unfired ammo, but then hangs up on the primer after firing, then the problem is that the loads are too light, not that the primers were loaded too high.

 

I once asked Shalako Joe, former World Champ, how often he cleaned his guns.  Granted these were Old Model Vaqueros at that time, before he switched to Model P's, but he said "a couple times a year"  They were using Clays.

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