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Is it normal to have to clean a SAA replica revolver after 80 shots (using smokeless powder, not blackpowder)?


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Is it normal to have to clean a SAA replica revolver after 80 shots (using smokeless powder, not blackpowder)?

 

I'm asking because I fired 95 shots at the range yesterday. The revolver performed as expected for 85 shots. But it would not easily cock on the last 2 cylinderfulls (shots 86 to 95) until I first removed and refitted the cylinder in order to be able to cock the revolver. presumably, the removal and re-installation of the cylinder each time cleared out a bit of the fouling and allowed the firing of the 5 cartridges in the cylinder.

 

The cylinder to forcing cone gap on this revolver is .006 inch.

 

The powders being used were Titegroup (the first 60 shots) and Trail Boss (the last 35 shots).

 

The velocity being fired varied, as most of the shots fired were a ladder test, but ranged from 634 fps to 836 fps, with the powder load ranging from 3.2 to 4.2 grains for TiteGroup, and then a steady diet of 4.1 grains of Trail Boss for the last 35 rounds.

 

The cylinder "ratchet" on the rear (sorry, I don't know the correct name for it), the cylinder pin, and both of the moving parts in the frame, were lubricated with white lithium grease when the handgun was last cleaned.

 

So, is this normal?

 

And, is 80 shots a typical limit before cleaning is required, or is this low or high for a Uberti-made Cimarron Model P Peacemaker replica?

 

Jim G

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38 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

How much time between shooting another cylinder full were you taking?  Also you could test in a similar manner with different lubricants.  Just for starters.

 

I was stopping, emptying the cylinder, walking out to the 25 yard target stand, and then reloading, after each 5-shot string to examine the target (I had the range to myself that day), and it took me 2.5 hours to fire 95 shots, so it was likely an average of 1.6 minutes between shots, or 8 minutes per cylinder.

 

I have been told that Titegroup runs "hot". Did this have an effect?

 

In case it is relevant, the ambient outdoor temperature at the time was about 7C = 46F.

 

Jim G

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2 minutes ago, Snakebite Dust SASS 75484 said:

Sounds like you might have some high primers. I’ve shot four or five matches using smokeless before cleaning 

 

Nope. That was the first thing I looked for. Good suggestion, but no high primers. I do a pretty strong quality check on all my handloaded ammo for safety reasons.

 

Jim G

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I run my Vaqueros using Trailboss hundreds if not closer to a thousand rounds before I have trouble with the cartridges not going in fully. Perhaps the tolerances are too tight. You didn't mention what caliber. 4.1 gns of Trailboss is very light for .45 Colt If they are too light, the primers can back out when fired and with a light charge it won't set the case back enough to re-seat them.

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Clean cylinder face.  Check for good function after that.  Good probability it was fouled.  I run barrel to cylinder gaps of at least 0.005"  in Ruger Vaqueros, either large frame or the medium.  Also check the base pin for fouling, and the barrel face. 

 

Another  good probability you are pushing primers out of case enough to get a cylinder dragging on recoil shield, as Cholla mentioned.  Need enough case "recoil" to slam the primer back into the pocket, and that light a load of TB in a .45 Colt case could be border line low pressures, especially with rough chambers in the cylinders which would hold onto cases.   Look for primers a little proud of the case heads, and/or drag marks on the primers or in the recoil shield's smoke film.

 

Uberti SAA clones?  Fairly new?  Just one gun involved, or two?  Details matter.

 

good luck, GJ

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For the first 60 shots (ladder test):

357 Magnum

357 Magnum case

158g Hornady swaged bullet (no. 10408)

The load source is Hornady's own load table for this bullet:

 

125877721_Hornady158gswagedSWCno.10408loadingdataver10loadingmanual-1.thumb.jpeg.d44e2a2ce7026568df17920f96361dec.jpeg

 

Their table stopped at 4.1g, but I tried 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8, 4.0, and when the primers still looked all the same (not flatteneded) I fired the 4.2 grain load as well.

 

The Trail Boss loads fired for the last 35 rounds were all:

148g cast bullets

4.1 grains of Trail Boss

 

Jim G

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Looked up that Trail Boss load.  Closest I could find on Hodgdon's data is a 125 grain bullet with 3.5 to 5.3 grains of TB, so your load should not be real weak. 

 

good luck, GJ

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This is ridiculous - how many rounds of smokeless can be fired before cleaning is required because the cylinder is binding?

 

Literally THOUSANDS.

If your cylinder is binding after 85 rounds of smokeless...  There is something significantly wrong with your firearm.

 

The last couple years have been rough - but prior to that when I was shooting every weekend and four or five annuals a year...

My cleaning regimen went something like this; wipe the exterior of the guns down after a weekends shooting (maybe, if I thought of it - or wasn't too tired), and throw them into my gunroom until the next weekend.

 

Unless I had to fix something or modify something - An actual takedown and "cleaning" occured once a year (twice if I was bored).  

 

Thats six to twelve stages a weekend - 30 to 60 rounds per pistol multiplied by, oh lets say 40 weekends a year.

So low side - lets say 1500 rounds per pistol per year (plus practice, side matches, etc.) and NEVER once were they ever so fouled as to bind the cylinder or impair their performance.

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I clean my guns after every shooting session or match. I also check all the screws. I shoot Colts so I’m a little fussy about cleaning them but Creeker is right, they shouldn’t bind up after 85 rounds. 

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With five of us shooting I don’t take the time to clean 20 guns after every match. They get wiped down, put in gun socks and into the safe. Every three months (or so) they get a decent cleaning. That’s about 375 rounds through the pistols and 750 through the rifles. Once a year (or so) they get a pretty detailed cleaning, usually late winter before spring State matches start up. 
 

If we shoot in the rain I give them a little extra attention.
 

I’ve never experienced a significant issue due to fouling though Sharyn’s Single Sixes in .32 H&R magnum do seem to get dirtier than the Vaqueros do.

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Are by chance...your cylinder base pins working out? If the crosspin spring gets weak...the base pin can work out a bit. That can cause a revolver to lock up

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Jim My newest Uberti had chambers so tight I had to buy a reamer to make them fit first quality ammo. There was one chamber that was very tight , $100 and no problems. Also the reamer can aid in cleaning my neglected revolvers. I am in the dont clean too often camp. A tight chamber combined with fouling can slow the brass' movement during firing enough to not allow the primer to reset. 

 

Imis 

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8 hours ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

Their table stopped at 4.1g, but I tried 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8, 4.0, and when the primers still looked all the same (not flatteneded) I fired the 4.2 grain load as well.

 

Using the flattened primer test in SAA revolvers is a good way to blow up a gun. Yes these revolvers are proof tested but they are not over built. 

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I Think Old Man Graybeard and Rye Miles might have given me one relevant answer. My Cimarron Model P revolvers use the original design threaded screw to secure the long pin that the cylinder rotates on. Both my revolvers tend to back out that threaded screw. In fact, when the cylinder binding occurred, and I pulled the cylinder out to see what was going on, I noticed that I did NOT need the firearm screwdriver to remove it - it unthreaded easily by hand and the long pin that the clyinder rotates on slipped out very easily.

 

The crimping suggestions also caught my attention. I am using the Redding Competition Pro Series die set. I THINK I might not have enough crimp in my setup. The Labradar chronograph Doppler radar results show that with 4.0 grains of TiteGroup with the 158g Hornady swaged bullet, I am getting a muzzle velocity of 781 fps, and with 4.2g I am getting 808 fps. But the Hornady load table (which I posted about 8 posts earlier in this thread) suggests I should be at more like 900 fps. I can see how too weak a crimp could let the bullet launch before pressure has built to the ideal level, and so produce a lower muzzle velocity.

 

Now the Std Dev is 9.7 fps at 4.0g with an extreme spread of 29, and the Std Dev is 9.2 fps at 4.2g with an extreme spread of 28, so the "statistics" other than velocity for both look good, but the 4.0g load is apparently at a node because it shoots MUCH better than the 4.2g load despite the almost identical statistics.

 

Neither load shoots with the consistency I normally get with a handgun, but I assumed that was because I have trouble with the sights which are tiny and indistinct perfect replicas of the crappy originals. But maybe the real issue is insufficient crimping?

 

I adjusted the crimp die to produce what "looks" like a nice finished cartridge which also slips easily into the 357 Magnum cartridge gauge. But maybe I should be crimping harder? How do you know when you have applied the RIGHT amount of crimping? (Enough to hold the bullet tightly enough but not enough to damage the bullet by excess compression)

 

Jim G

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30 minutes ago, Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 said:

Jim My newest Uberti had chambers so tight I had to buy a reamer to make them fit first quality ammo. There was one chamber that was very tight , $100 and no problems. Also the reamer can aid in cleaning my neglected revolvers. I am in the dont clean too often camp. A tight chamber combined with fouling can slow the brass' movement during firing enough to not allow the primer to reset. 

 

Imis 

 

Good thought, but the chambers on mine seem, if anything, a little on the loose side. Cartridges drop in easily and will slide rearward if the hadngun barrel is tilted upward. They also extract easily, most falling out if simply nudged by the extraction rod.

 

Jim G

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I primarily shoot BP and have fired over 100 rounds through my revolvers without cleaning beyond a quick wipe down with some Ballistol and have never had any issues.

 

When it comes to smokeless I've fired hundreds of rounds with no issues. 

 

My first guess is the white lithium grease you are using is not up to the task. I use Mobil-1 full synthetic red grease. It is BP compatible and will not break down even under the harshest shooting conditions. In firearms that I might shoot BP in, I use Ballistol anywhere oil is required. For guns that I never shoot BP in I use Hornady One Shot. 

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11 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

I adjusted the crimp die to produce what "looks" like a nice finished cartridge which also slips easily into the 357 Magnum cartridge gauge. But maybe I should be crimping harder? How do you know when you have applied the RIGHT amount of crimping? (Enough to hold the bullet tightly enough but not enough to damage the bullet by excess compression)

 

You cannot damage a cast lead bullet by over crimping. You'll bulge the case first.

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7 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Using the flattened primer test in SAA revolvers is a good way to blow up a gun. Yes these revolvers are proof tested but they are not over built. 

 

My primers seem pretty far from being flattened. This photo shows the primers after firing for the 3.2g to 4.0g loads:

 

1325923021_Primers3.2gto4.0g-1.thumb.jpeg.69ae12f0a6f1071ee6c735c7f15ceea1.jpeg

 

This photo shows the 4.2g primers, which look no different:

 

2018975542_Primers4.2g-1.thumb.jpeg.29fc55985abc83a40024a0e560240524.jpeg

 

And a good strong apparent firing pin hit for all shots fired.

 

Jim G

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33 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I primarily shoot BP and have fired over 100 rounds through my revolvers without cleaning beyond a quick wipe down with some Ballistol and have never had any issues.

 

When it comes to smokeless I've fired hundreds of rounds with no issues. 

 

My first guess is the white lithium grease you are using is not up to the task. I use Mobil-1 full synthetic red grease. It is BP compatible and will not break down even under the harshest shooting conditions. In firearms that I might shoot BP in, I use Ballistol anywhere oil is required. For guns that I never shoot BP in I use Hornady One Shot. 

 

I don't know about the white Lithium grease not being up to the task. I use the grease in 4 places: the long cylinder pin to cylinder interface, the cam surfaces of the "star" on the rear of the cylinder, and both of the 2 moving parts in the frame that interact with the cylinder when advancing the cylinder. I have no way of evaluating the grease performance at the 3 contact points, but do notice that the cylinder pin does slide in and out easily even after I fired the 95 rounds. And the grease seems to work well in my 9mm semiauto pistol and my 6.5 Creedmore rifle, both of which exert much higher thermal and physical forces on it.

 

Jim G

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21 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

You cannot damage a cast lead bullet by over crimping. You'll bulge the case first.

 

Ok, so I could apply tighter crimping by threading the crimping die in a bit more. I realize that if I OVER crimp by "too much", if the case rather than the bullet is the one that gets damaged (even if the bullet is swaged versus cats?), the case would then bulge and this would be exposed when the finished cartridge fails to insert properly into the 357 Magnum cartridge gauge. However, I'd prefer to NOT get to the point where the case bulges. How do I know when I have applied the correct degree of crimping for this CAS-level load? 

 

Jim G

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On second thought: I just remembered that Hornady's load table was based on firing from a 10" barrel. My revolver barrels are 4.75" long. So, a bit over 800 fps versus 900 fps for the 10" barrel seems reasonable versus low.

 

Jim G

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2 hours ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

How do I know when I have applied the correct degree of crimping for this CAS-level load? 

I am relatively new to reloading, but AFAIK:

Find a hard vertical surface (like a door frame) and press the round against it using your body weight*. If the bullet telescopes then there's not enough crimping. Please note that there has to be already a reasonable neck tension before crimping. Else, it's not the proper sizing die for your bullet diameter.

I would start from the weak side with crimping and increase until it's enough.

I don't know your Redding crimp die, but if it's similar to a Lee Factory Crimp then you won't get bulged case and you probably can overcrimp.

 

*might leaves a ding, so preferably not living room door....

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8 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I am relatively new to reloading, but AFAIK:

Find a hard vertical surface (like a door frame) and press the round against it using your body weight*. If the bullet telescopes then there's not enough crimping. Please note that there has to be already a reasonable neck tension before crimping. Else, it's not the proper sizing die for your bullet diameter.

I would start from the weak side with crimping and increase until it's enough.

I don't know your Redding crimp die, but if it's similar to a Lee Factory Crimp then you won't get bulged case and you probably can overcrimp.

 

*might leaves a ding, so preferably not living room door....

 

My rounds seem to pass that test. I can measure the COAL with my digital caliper, push down as hard as I can onto my bench surface, and then measure again, seeing no difference in COAL.

 

Yeah about that living room door: Good precaution as my wife would react badly to a dinged door!

 

Jim G

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3 hours ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

I Think Old Man Graybeard and Rye Miles might have given me one relevant answer. My Cimarron Model P revolvers use the original design threaded screw to secure the long pin that the cylinder rotates on. Both my revolvers tend to back out that threaded screw. In fact, when the cylinder binding occurred, and I pulled the cylinder out to see what was going on, I noticed that I did NOT need the firearm screwdriver to remove it - it unthreaded easily by hand and the long pin that the clyinder rotates on slipped out very easily.

 

Sounds like you might have the wrong screw in the frame.  When the guns are shipped they have a large thumbscrew in the frame.  This screw is not for shooting.  In the box should be a smaller screw with no thumbwheel.

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3 hours ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

I don't know about the white Lithium grease not being up to the task. . .

 

Jim G

 

agree on this  ▲

tried it myself and wasn't at all impressed--almost like no lube at all after a few cylinders shot

 

went back to normal gun grease and will be sticking with it

 

nothing wrong with trying new stuff--just realize not all experiments have positive outcomes but they all do teach us stuff

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4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Few drops of oil works wonders

 

When I don't clean my guns between matches, cowboy or otherwise, I will usually apply some oil in the appropriate places. For those who clean their guns once or twice a year, do you occasionally or regularly lubricate them even if not cleaning them?

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8 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Sounds like you might have the wrong screw in the frame.  When the guns are shipped they have a large thumbscrew in the frame.  This screw is not for shooting.  In the box should be a smaller screw with no thumbwheel.

 

Wow! You are correct! I checked both original boxes and found the 2 screws without the thumbscrew head. I installed them just now. Naturally, my less-than-good Cimarron dealer neglected to mention anything about the screws needing to be replaced with the ones without the thumbscrew head.

 

This is the same dealer who sold me my 1873 rifle with the Cimarron "Original Finish" finish. When I got it home to remove any shipping grease and oil, I discovered via bore camera  (you cannot really view an 1873 barrel bore well without a bore camera) that the bore of the barrel had been chemically attacked (probably by the "Original Finish" process being done incorrectly at the factory without protecting the bore) and had multiple instances of multi-coloured ugly corrosion with significant pitting that did not respond to any type of normal cleaning (lead remover, copper remover, brass brushes, patches, etc). He assured me "this was no problem, just go ahead and shoot with it", and refused to do anything about the "no problem". But when I emailed the bore camera photos to Cimarron, they replied within 20 minutes telling me that the barrel would be replaced under warranty, but it would take "probably a year because Uberti is so busy they can't keep up". It's been 6 months so far. Plus, when I do eventually get the replacement barrel, I'll have to pay a local gunsmith to make the swap since shipping a firearm from Canada back to Cimarron in The U.S., both ways, would take a long time, cost a LOT of money, and would likely be legally an issue since "International". So, I have had no respect for that dealer's attention and ethics right from the get-go.

 

Jim G

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if this was a new revolver there may have been chit in it from the factory that worked loose and jambed things up , shouldnt hapen , i would get it looked at or return it , i agree with post above that thousands of rounds should work without issue , that said - our low power cowboy rounds could carbon up the gap between the cylinder and barrel if its real tight , 

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24 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

 

agree on this  ▲

tried it myself and wasn't at all impressed--almost like no lube at all after a few cylinders shot

 

went back to normal gun grease and will be sticking with it

 

nothing wrong with trying new stuff--just realize not all experiments have positive outcomes but they all do teach us stuff

 

Well, since 2 of you have now identified this as a potential contributor to the problem, I'll go back to a gun grease (even though gun greases in their tiny containers are ridiculously expensive compared to the price of a tub of grease from an auto parts or machine shop source.

 

I do have a very high performance wheel bearing grease in my shop that was highly recommended at a long distance shooting forum site for use as very effective  protection for the bolt lugs on a 700 action, which see a lot of both heat and pressure. I can try that.

 

Jim G

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