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Why are both of my Cimarron Model P 357 Magnum revolvers shooting about 2-1/2 inches left at 25 yards?


Mysterious Stranger

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10 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Four or five years back, I bought two new Cimmaron (Evil Roy) .38/.357 revolvers that both consistently shot (from a bench rest)  10" high at 8 yds.  To bring them to POA, I would have had to TIG a 3/8" height extension on the front sights. 

 

Instead, I rotated both barrels 180 degrees,  shimmed them, re-cut new sight keyways, welded up the factory keyways, re-colored both guns, and finally was able to adjust the POA.   

 

After I got into the repair work, I realized that I should simply have sent them back and asked for a refund.  But living in Ca., returning a handgun isn't that simple. 

 

Reading the O.P. here, my suspicions seem confirmed that Cimmaron has poor or non-existent QAQC on their imported firearms. They were laughably  mis-advertised as "match ready right out of the box".  

 

Reading the posts here, folks seem to be trying to correct a physical firearm defect by shooter technique correction.   
The co-alignment of the bore with the sights is a mechanical issue that has very little to do with shooter grip, flinch, or

other shooter technique.  The gun should be able to repetitively deliver a projectile to the point where the sights are aligned (allowing for some variation stemming form different loads).  The gun should be able to be accurately fired on the first round, by any competent shooter who picks it up.  But if the sights do not match the bore alignment, that introduces a learning curve of how far left, right, up, or down the shooter must mis-aim the firearm, or how tightly or loosely they must grip the gun - whatever.   

 

In my case, shooting from a bench, the sights were too far out to be adjustable, so I fixed them, rather than try to guesstimate how far off-target I had to aim.  

 

If the gun is not aligned to POA, it will still be precise -- missing the POA consistently in a repeatable impact group.   But the group will not be on the target without the shooter learning to mis-aim consistently. 

 

However, a group a couple inches left at 25 yards, will be minimal at typical 5 yard pistol targets. Not worth the cost of fixing for our game. IMHO

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2 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

However, a group a couple inches left at 25 yards, will be minimal at typical 5 yard pistol targets. Not worth the cost of fixing for our game. IMHO

 

What is the LONGEST distance to pistol targets at a CAS match?

 

Jim G

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8 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

What is the LONGEST distance to pistol targets at a CAS match?

 

Jim G

I haven't had a lot of different club experience, but when I started, that club was about 8-10 yards. We typically set them at 5 yards and rifle 11-15 with SG at 8. That seems relatively normal for the locations I shoot.

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8 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

What is the LONGEST distance to pistol targets at a CAS match?

 

Jim G

 

Have you been to a match?  No one can answer that as there are clubs spread all over the U.S. and several other countries and clubs can do what they want.  The vast majority of pistol targets are set at 10 yards or less.

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1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Have you been to a match?  No one can answer that as there are clubs spread all over the U.S. and several other countries and clubs can do what they want.  The vast majority of pistol targets are set at 10 yards or less.

 

Thank-you, that is the information I needed. Although I shot CAS for years, it was decades ago, and a lot has changed. I only got a chance to attend ONE match at my local club last fall before the winter got serious. 10 yards is reassuring. That means my "worst" revolver will shoot only 10/25 x 4" = 1.6" consistently left.

 

Jim G

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51 minutes ago, Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 said:

If pistol is shooting low, shooting heavier bullets will raise poi.  In barrel longer pistol recoils more before bullet exits yes is counter intuitive but is the gospel.

 

 

Well I am headed in the right direction there with the Hornady no. 10408 "Frontier" swaged lead 158g bullet.

 

Jim G

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there is a chart that shows you what your finger is doing when you pull the trigger - im not the guy to teach or advise [i shoot badly] but it might help with your question , i dont have it to post but most ranges have it available , i think your putting too muvch finger into your trigger pull but again i dont have it available , that is assumine your sights are right 

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31 minutes ago, watab kid said:

there is a chart that shows you what your finger is doing when you pull the trigger - im not the guy to teach or advise [i shoot badly] but it might help with your question , i dont have it to post but most ranges have it available , i think your putting too muvch finger into your trigger pull but again i dont have it available , that is assumine your sights are right 

 

Found these in my "Gun Pix" files:

 

 

shooting chart 1 (wire).jpg

 

 

shooting chart 2 (wire).jpg

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6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Found these in my "Gun Pix" files:

 

 

shooting chart 1 (wire).jpg

 

 

shooting chart 2 (wire).jpg

 

I actually got a laser boresighter and used it to check the sights on both revolvers. The laser confirmed that one of the revolvers shoots 2" left of POA and the other revolver shoots to 4" left of POA. The fact that the 2 have DIFFERENT windage errors is particularly a problem for fast paced CAS shooting. I will address this though after I have determined that I have a handload good enough to keep.

 

Jim G

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Whatcha gonna do when ya still miss a 16" target at 5 yards and sights are dead on?:lol: Your measurements are at abt. 25 yards, so the error will be less than an inch at typical CAS distance. JMHO 

We aren't shooting Bullseye.

 

 

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You’re thinking too much. I develop loads based on desired velocity and recoil. At the distance we shoot pistol poi could be 12” left at 25 yds which is 2.5” at 5 yds. And that is negligible on 16” target. Your 1/2” at 5 yds ain’t worth messing with.

 

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34 minutes ago, Bull Skinner said:

You’re thinking too much. I develop loads based on desired velocity and recoil. At the distance we shoot pistol poi could be 12” left at 25 yds which is 2.5” at 5 yds. And that is negligible on 16” target. Your 1/2” at 5 yds ain’t worth messing with.

 

 

Yeah, I know you are right. I just hate to have to use regularly equipment that is known to have a deficiency I know about but have not cured. :)

 

Jim G

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45 minutes ago, watab kid said:

 

 

that first one is  what i was referring to 

 

I get that, but i liked the 2nd one too! After I used the laser boresighter that proved the 2" and 4" leftward windage errors existed in the sights of the 2 revolvers, I went back to the targets before I threw them out, and measured the horizontal distance of each shot, in each 5--shot group, from the vertical centerline of the aimpoint. Then I added up all those distance within each group and divided by 5, to get the average distance left from the target centerline, for each 5-shot group.

 

That analysis confirmed that the leftward offset of the groups was indeed over 2" for one  revolver and about 4" for the other revolver! so, my consistent leftward windage IS due to the sights and not a shooter trigger or grip error.

 

Now to reduce the average group SIZE, I need to either figure out a way to get a an easier and betetr sight picture with those sights, OR put a SureHit front sight brass "sleeve" over the sight to make it taller, wider, and more visible. I'm going to try the SureHit brass sleeve, which apparently simply slips on and glues in place. Before I GLUE it, I'll first try shooting with it just slipped on if I can do that without recoil throwing it off the handgun to disappear somewhere on the ground. Recoil on our CAS loads is mild, so maybe that would work. If not, maybe I can somehow tape it in place temporarily.

 

Jim G

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4 hours ago, WOLFY said:

Send em back to the manufacturer.

 

Why shoot a gun that’ll be 5” off at 50 yards?

 

Actually, I cannot practically "send em back to the manufacturer". First, as many here have pointed out to me, these replicas are authentic to the point that they were apparently never designed to be shot at 25 yards, let alone 50 yards. Second, the authentic SHAPE and SIZE of the sights makes those ranges pretty hard to shoot even though I love to shoot other handguns at 25 and 50 yards.

 

Third, and most important right now, recent Canadian law changes make getting a replacement handgun difficult and soon legally impossible. The Government is trying to push through a an outright ban on handguns. I bought these last fall and only got approval to physically receive them a few weeks ago.via transfer from the selling dealer. Approvals for transfers have now been outright stopped while the government tries to enshrine a ban. These two revolvers are what I have to work with.

 

Jim G

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On 3/12/2023 at 10:47 PM, Mysterious Stranger said:

Both of my Cimarron Model P 357 Magnum revolvers are shooting about 2-1/2 inches left of the point of aim at 25 yards. Consistently.

 

I'm wondering: Why?

 

I have NOT had this problem with any other of the many handguns I have fired over the past many decades, including a pair of Uberti-made Schofields back around 25 years ago.

 

I'm firing using a 2-hand grip, from a bench (since i am testing handloads), with a soft bag support under my hands. I am being careful to apply pressure to only the front of the trigger, using the first fleshy segment of my trigger finger (not the first joint). 

 

The 5-shot group sizes are reasonable for the 25 yard distance: between 1.5 and 2 inches. They are simply about 2.5 inches left of POA. They are also low if I hold the sights in the intended vertical factory alignment, but I can easily cure that by holding the front sight slightly high, so am not concerned about that.

 

This is NOT a flinch in response to anticipated recoil. First, I am used to firing reasonably powerful handguns, revolver sna dsemiautos, including handloaded full power 38 Super, 45 Auto, and most recently a very hot 9mm load that fires a 115g jacketed hollowpoint at almost 1375 fps. No issues with any of those. And the load i am firing in these 2 Cimarrons is a .357 Mag loaded with only a 147g lead bullet, most recently using a few different 3.4g to 4.2g Trail Boss loads, the HOTTEST of which generated only 770 fps muzzle velocity.

 

I had been alerted by multiple shooters to the fact that many shooters shooting Peacemakers either first time or after a long absence tend to shoot left of POA, because their trigger finger first joint is exerting side pressure on the trigger, but i have been very careful to NOT do that.

 

BOTH revolvers are exhibiting this grouping left of POA, although not exactly the same amount. One seems to be consistently not as bad as the other, but the difference is small.

 

Both trigger pulls feel excellent to me. Lightweight, no creep, and so good that I am completely surprised when either revolver fires.

 

So, what am I doing wrong?

 

CAN this POSSIBLY be caused by the specific handload doing this with these 2 revolvers? Considering this possibility, I have now loaded up 120 rounds of 357 Mag using a different primer (Federal SP versus CCI SP Magnum), different powder (TiteGroup 3.2 to 4.2g versus the same weight range in Trail Boss), and a different bullet (158g Hornady swaged SWC versus 147g cast). Is there any possibility that this could affect the horizontal offset from POA? Or, am I likely to see this continue?

 

Changing the non-adjustable front blade and top-strap rear v-groove sight positions or shape is not an attractive option.

 

Comments and suggestions?

 

Jim G

 

 

  My first CAS revolvers were/are a pair of Uberti Hombre's. They also shot to the left as did most of my SA revolvers. Then I figured out it was ME and not my revolvers. 

  Yours is a very common problem with right-handed shooters and Colt SA's and their reproductions whose trigger are positioned in the left side of the trigger guard. 

  There is one caveat and that is if when the revolvers are assembled the barrels aren't tightened quite enough. I ran into this with a Ruger Police Service Six. The front sight was visibly canted to the right, which caused POI to be left. I removed the barrel and found a nasty metal burr on the face of the frame. I removed the burr taking care to keep the frame square and reinstalled the barrel correctly. Problem solved.

  Sometime when you're bored go to an auction site such as GunBroker and peruse used revolvers with adjustable sights. It's eye-opening just how many have their sights adjusted right of center.

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On 3/22/2023 at 7:14 PM, Mysterious Stranger said:

If not, maybe I can somehow tape it in place temporarily.

Just a small drop of rubber cement will hold the sight for 30 minutes and still be completely removable.  Naptha is the solvent you might need to clean the inside of the sight jacket afterwards.

 

good luck, GJ

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5 hours ago, Cholla Hill Tirador said:

 

  My first CAS revolvers were/are a pair of Uberti Hombre's. They also shot to the left as did most of my SA revolvers. Then I figured out it was ME and not my revolvers. 

  Yours is a very common problem with right-handed shooters and Colt SA's and their reproductions whose trigger are positioned in the left side of the trigger guard. 

  There is one caveat and that is if when the revolvers are assembled the barrels aren't tightened quite enough. I ran into this with a Ruger Police Service Six. The front sight was visibly canted to the right, which caused POI to be left. I removed the barrel and found a nasty metal burr on the face of the frame. I removed the burr taking care to keep the frame square and reinstalled the barrel correctly. Problem solved.

  Sometime when you're bored go to an auction site such as GunBroker and peruse used revolvers with adjustable sights. It's eye-opening just how many have their sights adjusted right of center.

 

I know what you say about shooting left is true for many shooters, BUT I actually bought and used a laser boresighter to check both revolvers, and the laser boresignter confirmed not only that they would both shoot left, but it actually confirmed how MUCH each actually shoots left.

 

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46 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Just a small drop of rubber cement will hold the sight for 30 minutes and still be completely removable.  Naptha is the solvent you might need to clean the inside of the sight jacket afterwards.

 

good luck, GJ

 

I do have both Acetone and Laquer Thinner. They'd probably work too to clean off that rubber cement?

 

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