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Why are both of my Cimarron Model P 357 Magnum revolvers shooting about 2-1/2 inches left at 25 yards?


Mysterious Stranger

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Both of my Cimarron Model P 357 Magnum revolvers are shooting about 2-1/2 inches left of the point of aim at 25 yards. Consistently.

 

I'm wondering: Why?

 

I have NOT had this problem with any other of the many handguns I have fired over the past many decades, including a pair of Uberti-made Schofields back around 25 years ago.

 

I'm firing using a 2-hand grip, from a bench (since i am testing handloads), with a soft bag support under my hands. I am being careful to apply pressure to only the front of the trigger, using the first fleshy segment of my trigger finger (not the first joint). 

 

The 5-shot group sizes are reasonable for the 25 yard distance: between 1.5 and 2 inches. They are simply about 2.5 inches left of POA. They are also low if I hold the sights in the intended vertical factory alignment, but I can easily cure that by holding the front sight slightly high, so am not concerned about that.

 

This is NOT a flinch in response to anticipated recoil. First, I am used to firing reasonably powerful handguns, revolver sna dsemiautos, including handloaded full power 38 Super, 45 Auto, and most recently a very hot 9mm load that fires a 115g jacketed hollowpoint at almost 1375 fps. No issues with any of those. And the load i am firing in these 2 Cimarrons is a .357 Mag loaded with only a 147g lead bullet, most recently using a few different 3.4g to 4.2g Trail Boss loads, the HOTTEST of which generated only 770 fps muzzle velocity.

 

I had been alerted by multiple shooters to the fact that many shooters shooting Peacemakers either first time or after a long absence tend to shoot left of POA, because their trigger finger first joint is exerting side pressure on the trigger, but i have been very careful to NOT do that.

 

BOTH revolvers are exhibiting this grouping left of POA, although not exactly the same amount. One seems to be consistently not as bad as the other, but the difference is small.

 

Both trigger pulls feel excellent to me. Lightweight, no creep, and so good that I am completely surprised when either revolver fires.

 

So, what am I doing wrong?

 

CAN this POSSIBLY be caused by the specific handload doing this with these 2 revolvers? Considering this possibility, I have now loaded up 120 rounds of 357 Mag using a different primer (Federal SP versus CCI SP Magnum), different powder (TiteGroup 3.2 to 4.2g versus the same weight range in Trail Boss), and a different bullet (158g Hornady swaged SWC versus 147g cast). Is there any possibility that this could affect the horizontal offset from POA? Or, am I likely to see this continue?

 

Changing the non-adjustable front blade and top-strap rear v-groove sight positions or shape is not an attractive option.

 

Comments and suggestions?

 

Jim G

 

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Until I had my sights properly aligned, my Colts also shot left.  It took having the barrel turned and sights reinstalled.  Meanwhile, I got by with bent front sights.  

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Use a bore sight to check the sight alignment. They are inexpensive and reliable. It will eliminate all human error. It will tell you right away if the sights are in proper alignment.  

 

Beaver

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Frankly, I'd say that 2.5 inches at 25 yards is pretty good for most handguns.  However, since they do appear to consistently shoot to the left and you are convinced of that, then either bending the front sights or turning the barrel slightly is about the only way to correct.  While I certainly understand your wanting them to be dead on POA, it's really not worth worrying about on CAS targets.  Now if that was 2.5 inches at 5 to 10 yards, it might be an issue worth addressing, but they are your guns and it's your decision.  Good luck and good shooting to all.      

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Just like my Colt. 
 

Seems like read an article 30 years ago, most shoot to the left. Turning the barrel in just a mingle lines it right. I wouldn’t know. Turning the barrel in, might produce a disaster ( barrel marring).

 

Uriah

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9 hours ago, Beaver said:

Use a bore sight to check the sight alignment. They are inexpensive and reliable. It will eliminate all human error. It will tell you right away if the sights are in proper alignment.  

 

Beaver

Great idea! I don't currently have a bore sight, if if they are inexpensive, I'll buy one. I take it that you insert the bore sight into the barrel, grip the firearm over a firm rest and align the sight picture, and compare the Point of Aim to the location of the dot that the bore sighter creates on the target sheet?

 

Jim G

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A few points caught my attention, and I'd like to comment on them. The first was that Jim was going to change the load entirely, bullet, primer, and powder. That goes against the change one thing at a time rule a bit. I can see grabbing a box of factory and trying it again, but load development can be a trip down the rabbit hole at the best of times, I'm thinking that may get you a bit lost. 

 

I don't know if any of you have every watched any of the Paul Harrell YouTube videos. If you do you will notice that he shoots over his chronograph unsupported. Me not so much, I hit the odd support rested, I'm sure I'd smoke a screen if I shot unsupported. That sorta tells you I'm not a very good pistol shot. I bought numerous different fireams trying to find one that /i could hit anything with. I'm betting there wasn't anything wrong with the gun. I'm a bit better now, sorta developed my own technique, and learned a bit more about loading handgun ammo. 

 

I chronograph my loads to find decent ones. To test I rest the barrel on a leather bench rest support, on a solid rest and support the butt with my thumb. This seems to be a neutral support and doesn't throw off the POA/POI continuum. Also, while chronographing I discovered that a primer change can mean a critical change for the worse. I chronograph my loads by firing two five shot groups. One group with the powder position rearward and one with the powder position forward. Most of the time if the numbers are good, the groups will be as well, and gives me a base line for fine tuning the elevation POI. 

 

I shoot duelist, or double duelist, a skill set that takes a bit of practice. But one thing I noticed was that if the sight picture is good, and you lock the hold when you pull the trigger, most guns will shoot to the sights. IOW, I'm thinking that the second hand supporting the gun, has a bit of influence on the POI.  

 

Our game is not a marksmanship discipline, the targets are big and close and a hit is a hit, no group size in the points. That being said, if the groups are bad, I do have a few more misses. I have more issues with elevation, and usually change bullet weight to correct those. I have widened the rear notch on the odd firearm for windage. Usually widen by filing one side only. I don't mind a wider rear notch, a bit easier to acquire the target, IMHO. 

BB

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Take & file the right side of the rear site a fraction at a time.Keep the front site centered.It should bring your POA over.

                                                                                                                                                                                                         Largo

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I actually might be able to get to the range this afternoon due to unusually good luck: The recent -20C = -8F wintry weather here in Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada is apparently disappearing for today only  (+6C = +44F !!) AND my dear wife will be "occupied" all this afternoon with a church friend doing god's volunteer work, so I might be able to slip out to the range 45 minutes away each way, wade the all-wheel drive pickup truck through the unplowed grounds (we've had a total of 11.5 inches of snow within the past few days!), and shoot some 25 yard paper varmints! If so, I'll see if the different load makes a difference. I'll also order a boresighter at Amazon.ca, so I can see if it is the sights or if it is ME! 

 

Having done the math on a 2.5" error at 25 yards = 75 feet = 900 inches, with a 5.5" sight radius, I see that any sight adjustment required would be only a .015" movement of the centre of either the front or rear sight. So, filing the rear sight slot wider on the RIGHT, or adding .015" x 2 = .03" of metal thickness to the LEFT of the front sight via silver soldering, COULD align the sight POA with the actual POI. IF the new load does not move the POI.

 

Possibilities . . .

 

Jim G

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1 hour ago, largo casey #19191 said:

When U get the POA go with aSURE site on the front.

                                                                                                        Largo

 

Isn't the SURE sight a BOW sight??

 

Yes, the factory sights are horrible. WAY too small and very hard to align since the shapes are so non-distinct, I am of course used to modern handgun sights, which are much larger, have sharp square corners, and very prominent "correct" sight pictures. At age 72, and after  cataract surgery and laser correction in both eyes, these factory sights are a challenge.

 

But don't blame my eyes for the left POI: remember, the 5-shot groups at 25 yards are running 1.5" to 2" when I do MY part.(THis also says the handloads have been good too). When shooting modern semiauto handguns, I can shoot 2" or better groups with any handgun I have cared to own ("only accurate guns are interesting"), and have done 1" groups recently with a SIG P210A.

 

I'd love to have another known good shooter fire the revolvers, but in winter weather, I am usually the ONLY shooter at the range! The frigid temperatures and the deep unplowed snow  once you get off the public highway tends to keep the less-motivated shooters away! I wear 4 to 5 layers of clothing to keep the shivers away. :mellow:

 

It has to be either my GRIP on these revolvers, or SIGHT installation error, or maybe just the grip SHAPE and ergonomics, or the distance from grip to trigger face (shorter than on a modern handgun). I have to continue the diagnosing. Any additional suggestions would be very welcome, especially from anyone who has encountered a similar issue themselves, and knows what to change.

 

Jim G

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You can use this tool in house looking at the wall. No rest needed. It's a great tool, I have been using it for a long time. The laser points to where the bullet is going and then you adjust the sights to the dot. You can also see where the sights are at with different distances.

 

Beaver

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26 minutes ago, Beaver said:

You can use this tool in house looking at the wall. No rest needed. It's a great tool, I have been using it for a long time. The laser points to where the bullet is going and then you adjust the sights to the dot. You can also see where the sights are at with different distances.

 

Beaver

Yes, I ordered a similar one from Amazon.ca just now, and it will arrive tomorrow. I plan to use it at the longest indoor distance I can find inside our home! :mellow:  I compared a few on Amazon.ca. Some of the ones offered are inaccurate because their alingment system is poor, but this one got good reviews!

 

Jim G

 

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55 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

...Yes, the factory sights are horrible. WAY too small and very hard to align since the shapes are so non-distinct, I am of course used to modern handgun sights, which are much larger, have sharp square corners, and very prominent "correct" sight pictures. At age 72, and after  cataract surgery and laser correction in both eyes, these factory sights are a challenge....

The sights on the Evil Roy should be square front and squared rear.  It sounds like you are describing the 1st gen style of tapered front and V-notch rear.   Also, ER guns are supposed to have been adjusted if necessary for windage (not elevation).  You might want to check whether 2" at 25 yds is within that spec or not.  If these are new guns then warranty might be indicated, although being in Canada I'm not sure how that would work.  If you file on the rear sight or anything else similar you will void any warranty.  A;lso, I would try shooting the guns unsupported to compare, and also shoot them with your left hand on the trigger to compare.  Good luck.

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41 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

The sights on the Evil Roy should be square front and squared rear.  It sounds like you are describing the 1st gen style of tapered front and V-notch rear.   Also, ER guns are supposed to have been adjusted if necessary for windage (not elevation).  You might want to check whether 2" at 25 yds is within that spec or not.  If these are new guns then warranty might be indicated, although being in Canada I'm not sure how that would work.  If you file on the rear sight or anything else similar you will void any warranty.  A;lso, I would try shooting the guns unsupported to compare, and also shoot them with your left hand on the trigger to compare.  Good luck.

 

Abilene, these are NOT Evil Roy revolvers. They are Cimarron P1 models, with yes, the sights you described. I am now likely "permanently" blessed or cursed wit these specific revolvers, as Canada has via a Federal cabinet order (not yet legislation passed by Parliament) outlawed the transfer of any handguns after a specific date in last September. So, they cannot be sold and replaced. They can only be modified and repaired. So, yes, I will get them to where I am comfortable with them.

 

Jim G

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9 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

 

Abilene, these are NOT Evil Roy revolvers. They are Cimarron P1 models, with yes, the sights you described. I am now likely "permanently" blessed or cursed wit these specific revolvers, as Canada has via a Federal cabinet order (not yet legislation passed by Parliament) outlawed the transfer of any handguns after a specific date in last September. So, they cannot be sold and replaced. They can only be modified and repaired. So, yes, I will get them to where I am comfortable with them.

 

Jim G

Sorry Jim, I somehow had ER revolvers on my mind from another discussion.  You certainly did not say they were ER's!  In the days when ER's were new and harder to come by, some folks did have their rear sights milled square and replace the front with the squared sight, so that is a possibility.   Again, good luck.

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I have regulated several fixed-sight Vaqueros to get to horizontal POI/POA on the same spot by using a needle file on the inside of the rear notch.  As Largo Casey noted.  It does not take much to move POI a couple of inches at 25 yards.  I never notice the slightly wider rear sight notch.

 

If there is a big amount of difference depending upon the bullet weight and muzzle velocity of load, I would then have a pistol smith check and turn barrel to get sights aligned with bore.  I have found factories are not real picky about perfection when doing the barrel installation.

 

good luck, GJ

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If you've not had that problem with dozens of other fixed sight handguns over the decades, you are very, very lucky indeed.

 

If fixed sights can be made that always shoot to center on the horizontal plane, why do adjustable sights have windage adjustment?

 

The easy fix is to remove the ejector assembly, clamp the barrel in properly fitting barrel blocks, and turn the frame clockwise onto the barrel a fraction of a fraction of a degree. Milling or filing a few thousandths off the right side of the sight channel and touching up with cold blue is another way.

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Third to Garrison Joe and Largo Casey. I had a Cimarron Bisley 7.5” that Shot about 3” left at 25 yards. A very small amount of work with a file on the rear notch corrected the poi 

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Yesterday, we had a very unusually "warm" day here in Southern Alberta (it got to 6 C = 44 F !), so I drove 45 minutes each way over very wet roads to the range to do some testing on this POI versus POA issue, but things went very badly:

 

I was the ONLY guy who tried to go shooting yesterday, and so it was me that discovered that the security gate was jammed shut and would not open when my remote activated it. I called for help, and a club officer came 20 minutes later, but I lost about 45 minutes in the cold simply getting IN to the range, and had to manually close the gate when I left. Not a good start.

 

During my actual 2 hour shooting session, I had frequent "microbursts" of wind that kept toppling my target stand until I leaned it against another club-owned stand that was much heavier! Even then, the microbursts were strong enough to pull target staples out of the cardboard backing so I had to add staples! Never have run into THAT before . . .

 

I had brought a series of 120 rounds of 158g Hornady swaged bullet loads that used Titegroup in loads ranging from 3.2g to 4.2g, hoping to get velocity, consistency, POI versus POA, and group size data. But that ambitious plan was utterly foiled:

 

- The revolver I brought, the one that had LESS leftward POI than the other, being only 2.25" left versus over 3" for the other revolver, surprised my by shooting a full 4" to the left, absolutely consistently, will ALL the loads (3.2g to 4.2g), and even with a change in handgrip that I describe below. I guess this proves that different powders DO affect horizontal dispersion? That is encouraging, but also discouraging, as TiteGroup is the ONLY usable powder I have been able to actually find, and with my 3.2g to 4.2g loading range, I have exhausted the entire Titegroup range shown in the Hornady loading table for the 158g Hornady SWC bullet. Also, the 4" leftward POI took the groups to the point where half of each group was literally off the 8.5" wide paper target for every group fired, which made proper group analysis simply impossible, except where the cardboard backing had not been previously perforated. :(

 

- The POI versus POA was also low, just as in prior range sessions, despite now using TiteGroup versus Trail Boss. BUT, here, after seeing that be the case for the first few groups fired, I deliberately changed my grip to grip the handgun MUCH tighter - tighter than I have ever before needed to grip ANY handgun, and that made a difference. The POI VERTICALLY became the same as POA vertically. The horizontal leftward POI of 4" remained EXACTLY the same. What does THIS tell me?? :blink:

 

- The Labradar chronograph faithfully caught and displayed all the muzzle velocities of all 60 rounds fired before I gave up in disgust, given the cold and all the setbacks and surprises. BUT, and this is a BIG but: Although it caught and displayed every round fired, at the time it was fired, it failed to record ANY of the data on the SD card, like it always has done so reliably in the past! No kidding. When I pulled the SD card at home to import the data into Excel on my computer, just as I normally do, there was NO new data on the card. Only all the prior sessions. :( :blink: This was a HUGE setback. I looked at the display data after each round I fired, and HAD noted during the session that the progression in velocities as grains increased seemed reasonable but low:

 

     - The 3.2g delivered only about 580 to low 600s fps fro my 4.75" barrel length. This is FAR lower than the 750 fps that Hornady got using this bullet in a 10" barrel

 

     - The 4.2g, the TOP of the recommended load table data, delivered only abut low 800s fps from my 4.75" barrel length, versus the 10" Hornady barrel, which got 900 fps at 4.1g, the highest loading Hornady recommends. The primers with the 4.2g loads seemed to flatten more than at 3.6g of course:67798475_TitGroupprimersat4.2g-1.thumb.jpeg.e5060dba29f8ddca99843a18615d35bb.jpeg

 

but they don't seem dramatically different than the 3.6g, which look like THIS:

 

703737291_TitGroupprimersat3.6g-1.thumb.jpeg.5f07d7df4943c113f94b62496a192ec8.jpeg

 

As you can see, the revolver delivers good deep primer hits.

 

But because this is the top of the recommended range, my low 800 fps muzzle velocity cannot get higher with TiteGroup. And the 9.2g load, as well as the 9.0g load, were NOT very accurate. In fact, they appeared to be the worst in terms of group size, running notably higher than the other loads, hitting approximately 3 to 4 inch groups.

 

But TiteGroup is the only powder I can get right now, so 3.6g of TiteGroup, which delivered the best groups in this obviously very difficult and  limited testing is likely to be the initial load I adopt. Judging by the very leftward groups it delivered, on and past the edge of the paper, into the supporting cardboard, it and the 3.4g load shot nitably better groups than any of the other TiteGroups loads did. The 3.4 and 3.6g loads were the only loads that approached the accuracy I got in my best groups with Trail Boss. Remember though, this was a very limited test under ridiculously abnormal conditions. So, I plan to repear the entire test protocol when (a) good weather again occurs, and (b) the range gate has been repaired (I fear getting stuck INSIDE the fence).

 

I have to say that I am VERY disappointed in this range session's occurrences and marginally usable data. But, stuff happens. Hopefully, next time will go better. And next timn, I will preprint targets that mount in "landscape" direction versus "portrait" direction, so that the leftward POI creates groups that are fully still on easily readable  and measurable white paper!

 

I also today received, that laser boresighter I mentioned ordering earlier. I am going to try to do an "inside the house" test to see if my sights accurately follow the centreline of the barrel bore. That will be interesting to see.

 

About that 4 inch left POI versus POA: That's really not acceptable to me. There are enough other things to monitor in real time at any CAS match. I don't need to add "aim 4" right with every shot from the revolvers only, not the rifle" to the list.

 

The range official, who is also a Colt SAA shooter, told me that HIS experience is that most or all Colt SAAs shoot "left and low", but he personally has found that running a higher muzzle velocity, typically 900 fps or faster, usually helps. I SUSPECT he might be right that more velocity may have an effect, BUT since the maximum recommended load for TiteGroup is 4.1g, that is not going to work here.

 

I am curious though why a change in grip INTENSITY moved the POI upward over a couple of inches but had NO apparent effect on the leftward POI.

 

I guess the "investigation" needs to continue.

 

Jim G

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Left and low impact for many right hand shooters usually is suspected to be a flinch pulling the shot low and left.  Check with another good shooter behind the trigger, even if you are the Province's pistol champion of 2021.    :lol:  Could even be a recently occurring defect in vision.

 

Most single actions with fixed sights are given a taller-than-required-for-factory loads front sight.   That is so the front sight can be filed down to bring the POI to match the POA for the type of loads and ranges that the shooter will most often use.    Thus, lots of factory condition single actions shoot low with most ammo, factory or reloads, until the front sight can be brought down during a sighting in session.

 

The left side deflection may well be due to a barrel not properly squared up with the receiver, or some other problem.  Try to solve the windage problem first (the left side deflection) before attacking the other, as the corrective action for that could be some serious work, while elevation error can be corrected usually very easily.  But fixing elevation first may require it to be fixed again after correcting windage.

 

Quote

I am curious though why a change in grip INTENSITY moved the POI upward over a couple of inches

 

Stronger grip reduces muzzle flip as the gun fires.  That flip raises front of barrel, thus also the POI.   Shoot the gun as you will normally use it in a match - you don't want to make a major change to your grip that you will not want to remember to use later.

 

good luck, GJ

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Figured out the windage problem: It's the sights on the 2 revolvers!

 

My laser boresighter arrived today:

 

495170123_Laserboresight-1.thumb.jpeg.edc8d7d840665ca428fb18bfadeec9b8.jpeg

 

This one has all the right features for accuracy, including 12 bore inserts, each of which is screwdriver-adjustable for a perfect fit.

 

Our home is what is called a "backsplit" with a very long garage right at the front under the bedrooms, so even after allowing a generous distance for myself to get a comfortable "shooting" position behind an unpholstered chair, I was able to set up a "range" for the boresighter of 47 feet.

 

I used the same paper target as I had used for the actual range session:

 

640904944_Boresighttarget-1.thumb.jpeg.2dbff2d9d45b972e9f67c605c9257405.jpeg

 

I aligned the sights as perfectly as I could with the vertical centreline of the target. Since the boresighter is coaxial with the BORE, not the sights, I had to RAISE the front sight high enough to see the red laser dot. But I kept the sights aligned with that vertical centreline.

 

I tested both revolvers  multiple times and got consistent results, time and again, for each.

 

On the "better" revolver (the one with less leftward POI versus POA), The laser beam lit up the target on a vertical line that was approximately on the left tip of that small triangle. That tip is 1.44" left of the centerline of the target. The shooting distance was 47 feet, so at 25 yards = 75 feet, the POI versus POA would be 1.6 x 1.44" = 2.3". This matches very closely what that revolver delivered at an earlier session using Trail Boss powder. (I did not pack or fire this revolver at this latest session).

 

On the "worse" revolver (the one i fired at this last range session, the laser dot was vertically aligned with the point where the horizontal target line meets the inside of the black ring. That is 2.78" left of the centerline of the target. Extrapolating that 2.78" from 47 feet to 75 feet, I get 4.4". This is pretty close to the 4" I consistently estimated for all the groups  fired at the actual range session using this revolver.

 

So, yes, BOTH revolvers have front sights that are misaligned with the bore.

 

Now I know that both revolvers also shoot low versus POA, but that is easily corrected via filing down and reblueing the front sight, once I have firmly decided that I have a handload that I am willing to live with.

 

The error on the "better" revolver is 2.3" at 25 yards (900 inches). I just measured the sight radius on the revolvers, and it is about 5.75". So, the "better" revolver requires a front sight movement of 2.3 / 900 x 5.75 = .015 inches to the left. OR, I need to add .015" x 2 = .03 inches to the left side of the front sight. OR, I need to widen the rear sight V by .03 inches on its RIGHT side.

 

The error on the "worse" revolver is 4.4" at 25 yards (900 inches). So the worse revolver requires a front sight movement of 4.4 / 900 x 5.75 = .028" to the left. OR, I need to add .028" x 2 = .056 inches to the left side of the front sight. OR, I nee to widen the rear sight V by .056 inches on its RIGHT side.

 

I'm very glad I found out WHY I have been shooting left so consistently. Given all the above, apparenrtly I am a pretty good shooter. I just need to correct those built-in errors in the sights.

 

Jim G

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17 minutes ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

Most single action's will shoot to the left.

You have to turn the frame, to the right. Have turned a few .

It isn't hard to do.

 

It might not be hard for someone with the necessary tools that protect the firearm and make the job easier, and of course the experienced skillsets needed to use them properly. But I lack both. :(

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2 minutes ago, Jim Gnitecki said:

Now I know that both revolvers also shoot high versus POA, but that is easily corrected via filing down and reblueing the front sight, once I have firmly decided that I have a handload that I am willing to live with.

Uh, no. Filing the front sights will make them print higher still.

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 . . .

Stronger grip reduces muzzle flip as the gun fires.  That flip raises front of barrel, thus also the POI.   Shoot the gun as you will normally use it in a match - you don't want to make a major change to your grip that you will not want to remember to use later.

 

good luck, GJ

I'm not getting what you mean. My stronger grip should then have REDUCED muzzle flip which should have moved the POI LOWER not higher, right?

 

But you are right about the undesirability of trying to use a different grip than I normally use on handguns. Now that I have the leftward POI figured out and know I can correct that with a sight adjustment, it makes a lot more sense to leave my grip as it was and simply file down the front sight height.

 

I just need to get out to the range again soon to redo the ladder test on the cartridges loaded with TiteGroup. I'll prnt up some landscape versus portrait target sheets and find out when the range gate will be repaired so I can reliably enter and exit the range! The weather forecast for the next few days still shows somewhat cool weather, but not bad (highs of 4 or 5 C = 40 to 42F) as long as there are none of those nasty microbursts of wind. Our Lethbridge, Alberta area is known as the 2nd windiest place in Canada, due to the winds we get off the Rocky Muntains which are only about 60 miles away.

 

Jim G

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57 minutes ago, Seldom Seen #16162 said:

Next trip check for cross-eye dominance. Your groups are consistently to the left so try using your left eye to sight with.

 

No, I proved yesterday (see above) via a laser boresighter that the sights on both revolvers are causing the leftward POI, one of them notably more than the other. And i know from prior testing that cross-eye dominance is not present. But before I do anything to the sights, I want to firm up my handload first. 

 

Jim G

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On 3/13/2023 at 4:34 AM, Bison Bud said:

Frankly, I'd say that 2.5 inches at 25 yards is pretty good for most handguns.  However, since they do appear to consistently shoot to the left and you are convinced of that, then either bending the front sights or turning the barrel slightly is about the only way to correct.  While I certainly understand your wanting them to be dead on POA, it's really not worth worrying about on CAS targets.  Now if that was 2.5 inches at 5 to 10 yards, it might be an issue worth addressing, but they are your guns and it's your decision.  Good luck and good shooting to all.      

Four or five years back, I bought two new Cimmaron (Evil Roy) .38/.357 revolvers that both consistently shot (from a bench rest)  10" high at 8 yds.  To bring them to POA, I would have had to TIG a 3/8" height extension on the front sights. 

 

Instead, I rotated both barrels 180 degrees,  shimmed them, re-cut new sight keyways, welded up the factory keyways, re-colored both guns, and finally was able to adjust the POA.   

 

After I got into the repair work, I realized that I should simply have sent them back and asked for a refund.  But living in Ca., returning a handgun isn't that simple. 

 

Reading the O.P. here, my suspicions seem confirmed that Cimmaron has poor or non-existent QAQC on their imported firearms. They were laughably  mis-advertised as "match ready right out of the box".  

 

Reading the posts here, folks seem to be trying to correct a physical firearm defect by shooter technique correction.   
The co-alignment of the bore with the sights is a mechanical issue that has very little to do with shooter grip, flinch, or

other shooter technique.  The gun should be able to repetitively deliver a projectile to the point where the sights are aligned (allowing for some variation stemming form different loads).  The gun should be able to be accurately fired on the first round, by any competent shooter who picks it up.  But if the sights do not match the bore alignment, that introduces a learning curve of how far left, right, up, or down the shooter must mis-aim the firearm, or how tightly or loosely they must grip the gun - whatever.   

 

In my case, shooting from a bench, the sights were too far out to be adjustable, so I fixed them, rather than try to guesstimate how far off-target I had to aim.  

 

If the gun is not aligned to POA, it will still be precise -- missing the POA consistently in a repeatable impact group.   But the group will not be on the target without the shooter learning to mis-aim consistently. 

 

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