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Are You On Your Own When You Start A Stage?


Yul Lose

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1 minute ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

If my cap ‘n’ ball pistol jams and I don’t have my knife or a suitable substitute to knock the wedge loose so that I can remove the barrel and clear the jam, I am likely to pick up a rock or other object to complete the task.
 

I have broken down and cleared my revolver on at least three separate occasions at major matches to save a clean match!  
 

In each case, I had my knife handy to accomplish this.  If I HAD picked up a rock or another object to do this, how would that be different from using someone else’s knife or other offered tool??

Good question.

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Offering ammo during a stage would be making up for the shooter's mistake.  Offering a tool is not.  

 

There is no requirement to carry tools on your person.  There is no penalty for "unfired" tools.

 

When there is a safe way to offer the correct tool for the job, that sounds like the cowboy way to me.  

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I have never used one and am confused as is normal.  Is there a video of how to use a screwknife to clear a jam.  I picture is worth a thousand words.

 

I never knew how to use a screw knife now I do.  I guess I have been lucky the last 15 years.

 

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19 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Offering ammo during a stage would be making up for the shooter's mistake.  Offering a tool is not.  

 

There is no requirement to carry tools on your person.  There is no penalty for "unfired" tools.

 

When there is a safe way to offer the correct tool for the job, that sounds like the cowboy way to me.  

But, do you truly own the stage if a tool is provided by another to clear a jam on the stage you’re shooting?

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4 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

But, do you truly own the stage if a tool is provided by another to clear a jam on the stage you’re shooting?

 

Yul, why do you keep digging at this? Do you "truly own the stage" if the TO coaches you to keep from getting a procedural? Some may say yes, some may say no. Regardless, it is allowed.

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15 minutes ago, Blind Squirrel said:

 

Yul, why do you keep digging at this? Do you "truly own the stage" if the TO coaches you to keep from getting a procedural? Some may say yes, some may say no. Regardless, it is allowed.

How far do you go in allowing outside intervention in a big match? That’s what I’m trying to get at. Where is the line drawn as far as help and assistance from the TO or other participants? The discussion came up at lunch the other day and that’s why I brought it up. Seems like as good a topic as any as it is CAS related.

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8 hours ago, Fretless said:

Offering ammo during a stage would be making up for the shooter's mistake.  Offering a tool is not.  

 

There is no requirement to carry tools on your person.  There is no penalty for "unfired" tools.

 

When there is a safe way to offer the correct tool for the job, that sounds like the cowboy way to me.  

 

21 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

There is NO rule about using or accepting a tool (whether the tool originated on the shooter or from another posse member).

 

Nor should there be.

As a TO and posse member; I have offered direction, offered tools, or physically cleared a malfunction for the shooter.

 

This did not NEGATIVELY affect anyone at the match - and only offered the affected shooter a more positive and a more safe outcome.

 

 

 

We know you can't supply ammo, but I'll use it as an example.  Shooter runs short of SG shells and the TO provides some from his belt.  Next shooter runs short of 20 ga. SG shells, same TO only has 12 ga. shells.  With that in mind...

 

Shooter's rifle jams.  TO provides a tool to clear the jam.  Next shooter's rifle jams.  TO doesn't have the tool because the previous shooter has it with him at the ULT.

 

Shooter's rifle jams.  TO physically clears the malfunction.   Next shooter's rifle jams.  Different TO doesn't know how to clear the malfunction.

 

Do TOs now need to attend "malfunction training" and carry a toolbox with them so that "everyone is shooting the same stage" ?

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8 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

But, do you truly own the stage if a tool is provided by another to clear a jam on the stage you’re shooting?

I initially wrote that the shooter "owns" the stage after the first round goes downrange.  I'd overlooked your example of the TO (or other party) supplying a tool to clear a jam... which is perfectly legal.  And yes, for those that asked, whether the TO has the tool or not is a matter of luck, in which case, my bug vs windshield analogy still applies.  And is still in keeping with a relaxed amatuer sporting competition.  If there were Cadillacs up there for a podium finish, I dare say there'd be some tighter rules.  There'd certainly be less willingness to furnish a tool to clear another competitor's jam on the part of some!  I don't carry a screw-knife with me... I do however, carry a big hawking knife, and have used it on many occasions to clear a fouled cap off a C&B pistol.  in the way back time machine, I have taken a rifle from a competitor to clear their jam, cause they didn't know how...  however, I don't TO much any more, my knees don't let me get out of the way of faster shooters and I prefer not to get knocked down by guys bigger'n me with a loaded firearm!

 

Although like at most clubs during a monthly match, rules get set aside sometimes for a teaching moment, or in the interest of outlandishly absurd good sportsmanship, all rules should still apply, and be enforced.  So the "Big Match" comments are immaterial.  

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The problem as I see it always comes down to equal treatment for all shooters.

 

We all ready know that using ammo that the shooter did not bring to the stage in an approved manner is not allowed, it's in the book.

 

But what of lending a tool to clear a jam?  Can we be sure that every TO is carrying the tool necessary to help the shooter clear their jam?  Is it fair to the next shooter with a jam if their TO is toolless?

 

It's a tough call because the same could be said for a TO that helps coach a shooter with a memory fade in the middle of the stage.  That is allowed, but not all TOs are willing to do that or are able to do that.

 

So, where do we draw the line?  It's a tough call.  Both are help for the shooter, one is expressly allowed, the other we will have to wait for Palewolf to answer. B)

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

Although like at most clubs during a monthly match, rules get set aside sometimes for a teaching moment, or in the interest of outlandishly absurd good sportsmanship, all rules should still apply, and be enforced.  So the "Big Match" comments are immaterial.  

 

A LARGE problem in this game.  Which has been espoused in this very thread.  

 

"Ok at a monthly 'cause we're all friends."  

 

I've turned this turd over every time it comes up. 

 

IF your "monthly" club is enforcing rules any different than they would be at a "big" match then your club is doing you a disservice,

 

FFS please stop this "It's OK at a monthly" nonsense.  Play the game according to the rules at EVERY MATCH.

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I liked the rule book better when it fit in yer shirt pocket & the deciding factor was What Would Roy/Hoppy do?  If somebody needed something on the line & we had it we provided.  Just saying.

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9 hours ago, MizPete said:

I liked the rule book better when it fit in yer shirt pocket & the deciding factor was What Would Roy/Hoppy do?  If somebody needed something on the line & we had it we provided.  Just saying.

 

Seems like the more we play in a game based on the simplicities of old time cowboy tv shows and movies, the more complicated it becomes.

 

And...that ain't a good thing.

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Nothing will ever be fair to everyone.  Weather might be great for you on open bay stages and the next day raining while you're under cover. your competition might have spotters who call misses correctly, while yours call every questionable hit a miss.   One TO might be able to think quickly enough to save you a P, while another's cannot.  No matter how carefully you reload you might have a bad primer at a critical time.  All this is part of this being an amateur game.  I prefer it stay a friendly, amateur game.

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The issue of the t.o handing off a screw knife came up at my club a couple years ago. I did a wtc on the RO wire and it was deemed ok.  Final answer was from pale wolf. 

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This was sent to the ROC for resolution in Oct/Nov 2019:

 

The question was asked regarding how much assistance a T/O (or other shooter) may provide to a shooter experiencing a "gun stoppage" situation mid-stage.

Specifically, providing a tool (e.g. screw knife) necessary to remedy the problem (without personally handling the shooter's firearm).

 

The ROC was unanimously IN FAVOR of ALLOWING this under the primary role of the Timer Operator to "safely assist the shooter through the course of fire".

 

As already mentioned numerous times, it is NOT LEGAL for anyone to provide ammunition to a shooter once the stage begins.

 

REFS:

Note: Any ammo carried to the stage in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the “Use of illegally acquired ammunition” penalties.

SHB p.4

 

The penalty of using “illegally acquired” ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.
SHB p.18

 

Illegally acquired ammunition – ammo NOT carried to the line or staged by the shooter in an approved manner.

SHB p.43

 

 

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