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Are You On Your Own When You Start A Stage?


Yul Lose

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In a major match and you’re shooting a stage and your rifle jams and you’ve forgotten your screw knife, can another competitor hand you theirs so that you can clear the jam to finish the stage? You’ve jacked a round out of your rifle and you reach for a reload round and you’ve forgot to load them on your gun belt can another competitor supply the round so that you could keep that clean match? On a 8 SG round stage you’ve had a couple of misses and you reach for a shell to finish knocking them down and there are no more can someone hand you one or more to complete the stage? My answer would be no to all of the above, what say you?

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3 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

In a major match and you’re shooting a stage and your rifle jams and you’ve forgotten your screw knife, can another competitor hand you theirs so that you can clear the jam to finish the stage? You’ve jacked a round out of your rifle and you reach for a reload round and you’ve forgot to load them on your gun belt can another competitor supply the round so that you could keep that clean match? On a 8 SG round stage you’ve had a couple of misses and you reach for a shell to finish knocking them down and there are no more can someone hand you one or more to complete the stage? My answer would be no to all of the above, what say you?

 

- Yes, someone can hand you a device to clear the jam.

- No, the reload must be brought to the line in an approved manner by the shooter. Don't stage your pistols and run for one either, it's even worse juju.

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1 minute ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

- Yes, someone can hand you a device to clear the jam.

- No, the reload must be brought to the line in an approved manner by the shooter. Don't stage your pistols and run for one either, it's even worse juju.

Wonder why one would be allowed and the other wouldn’t?

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Don't know about the screwknife( I wouldn't think it would be a problem) , but seems like it would be illegally obtained ammunition.

The shooter didn't carry it to the line in an approved manner.

Just my thought ,of course.

YMMV

Choctaw Jack

 

 

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Once the first round is downrange, the shooter "owns" the stage.  Including all the foibles that can occur.  Somedays you're the bug, somedays, the windshield.

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Using ammo you did not take to the line youself is a voilation of the rules.  Nothing in the rules against useing a tool that someone hands you to clear your jamb.

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Just now, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

Using ammo you did not take to the line youself is a voilation of the rules.  Nothing in the rules against useing a tool that someone hands you to clear your jamb.

Again, why would that be allowed and the other not allowed? 

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Ammo no, but I've been offered and used others screw knife. Don't see an issue borrowing a tool, but ammo would be illegally acquired.

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4 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Ammo no, but I've been offered and used others screw knife. Don't see an issue borrowing a tool, but ammo would be illegally acquired.


‘But if you own the ‘stage once the first round is fired why would acquiring a screw knife or other tool from an outside source to help you finish the stage be allowed?

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Nobody ever took another shooter’s screw knife and used it to win a world championship?

Don’t know, but if ‘they did, would that taint their accomplishment?

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7 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:


‘But if you own the ‘stage once the first round is fired why would acquiring a screw knife or other tool from an outside source to help you finish the stage be allowed?

Can't answer that, but see where you're coming from. Probably cause I don't think there's a rule against it yet. :ph34r:

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The shooter owns the stage when the first round goes down range and if they run out of ammo well that is that.  You can only shoot what you bring to the line.  

The TO is there to "SAFELY ASSIST" the shooter and may tell the shooter they need more ammo before a shot is fired.  In a MAJOR MATCH, if the shooter does not have the tools to fix their firearm due to a gun malfunction on their person, they should declare such and safely discard the firearm.  Again the TO can SAFELY ASSIST the shooter but handing ammo, tools, etc. would be not be sporting.  Again in a MAJOR MATCH.  In our monthly club matches we help out each other so we can get better.  It's the Cowboy way.

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15 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Don’t know, but if ‘they did, would that taint their accomplishment?

Not really, can't have been as fast as bringing one's own screw knife. Certainly not an unsportsmanlike action.

 

Ammo. What ammo? Who's ammo? Power, type, caliber (verified correct?), bullet shape? All on the clock.

 

What about the interaction with 3rd parties while on the stage.

 

Ammo has its issues, and interaction with  other's on the stage has its issues.

 

Safer to declare a bad gun than to obtain a tool from another party.

 

But I see nothing in the rules about a tool, just ammo rules. Not picking a side, just seeing some considerations.

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7 minutes ago, Caladisi kid said:

... In our monthly club matches we help out each other so we can get better.  It's the Cowboy way.

And you can also pause, and set the clock aside. Yup, blew that stage but I still want to finish it lol.

 

In the context of loaning a tool, my only concern is doing so safely; removing time pressure helps.

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28 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Don’t know, but if ‘they did, would that taint their accomplishment?

Not to me.

 

The rule against the TO catching a falling gun, and applying the applicable dropped gun rule to the shooter even if the TO prevented the fall, indicates a rules approach of minimizing TO assistance impacting match outcomes.

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The 2 times I needed a knife, it appeared on the table in front me as I tried to pull the stuck case with a finger nail. Nothing unsafe as I only had to pick it up. A MAJOR MATCH would be a different story I guess. Those matches are always tighter on rules, but either way, the shooters only gain is to actually complete the stage. His/Her time is already toast.

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7 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Not to me.

 

The rule against the TO catching a falling gun, and applying the applicable dropped gun rule to the shooter even if the TO prevented the fall, indicates a rules approach of minimizing TO assistance impacting match outcomes.

Would a rule prohibiting the TO or other participant supplying a tool to the active participant be of the same “minimizing TO (or other participant) assistance impacting match outcomes” nature? The subject came up at lunch today, that’s why I started the thread.

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8 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The 2 times I needed a knife, it appeared on the table in front me as I tried to pull the stuck case with a finger nail. Nothing unsafe as I only had to pick it up. A MAJOR MATCH would be a different story I guess. Those matches are always tighter on rules, but either way, the shooters only gain is to actually complete the stage. His/Her time is already toast.

You just addressed my "interaction with a 3rd party" concern. It was not handed to you, it was just there. On the table. In front of you. (even if not actual magic).

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Just now, Yul Lose said:

Would a rule prohibiting the TO or other participant supplying a tool to the active participant be of the same “minimizing TO (or other participant) assistance impacting match outcomes” nature? The subject came up at lunch today, that’s why I started the thread.

Which participants are allowed on the stage while a shooter is active?

 

Can any participant (TO, spotter, ...) allowed on the stage safely provide a tool? Reach around the shooter and set it on the table in front of them?

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5 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

You just addressed my "interaction with a 3rd party" concern. It was not handed to you, it was just there. On the table. In front of you. (even if not actual magic).

Although in hind sight, I bet I subconsciously looked to see who contributed. I also would have no issue with borrowing tools being prohibited at a large match. But monthlies should be a little less persnickety .

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28 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Would a rule prohibiting the TO or other participant supplying a tool to the active participant be of the same “minimizing TO (or other participant) assistance impacting match outcomes” nature? The subject came up at lunch today, that’s why I started the thread.

If one were created I would think the same philosophy would apply.

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16 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Which participants are allowed on the stage while a shooter is active?

 

Can any participant (TO, spotter, ...) allowed on the stage safely provide a tool? Reach around the shooter and set it on the table in front of them?

There has been discussion on the Wire before about whether “coaching” should be allowed by the TO or spotters or peanut gallery. Is informing the shooter that a SG target is still standing considered coaching? Someone yelling “hull” or “lever” or “one more” if the shooter fired 9 instead of the required 10, is permissible and part of our safety etiquette. 

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27 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Would a rule prohibiting the TO or other participant supplying a tool to the active participant be of the same “minimizing TO (or other participant) assistance impacting match outcomes” nature? The subject came up at lunch today, that’s why I started the thread.

 

IMO, it would definitely fall within the "impacting the match outcome" train of thought...not that I subscribe to that train of thought. Not all TO's are created equal and not everything in life is equal or fair. If I shoot on the morning shift in bright, beautiful weather and the afternoon shift has to shoot in a blinding rainstorm or visa versa, it affects the outcome of the match...but, that's life and that's just the way it is.

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Some time ago I remember the tool assist question coming up and was ruled a no.  I think it was a procedural, but can’t remember why it was a procedural.  I think this falls into “not all TOs can catch a falling rifle, so none can”.

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12 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

There has been discussion on the Wire before about whether “coaching” should be allowed by the TO or spotters or peanut gallery. Is informing the shooter that a SG target is still standing considered coaching? Someone yelling “hull” or “lever” or “one more” if the shooter fired 9 instead of the required 10, is permissible and part of our safety etiquette. 

YL,  great questions. I’ve caused a SDQ because I told shooter to do something as a spotter.  It messed with the shooter and the TO was not ready to help. I’ve seen peanut gallery cause the shooter to earn a SDQ.  I absolutely love this game because we want everyone to do awesome and have a good time.  We have to stop the urge to shout out to our friends. There is a better than average chance it will cause a SDQ.   

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14 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

There has been discussion on the Wire before about whether “coaching” should be allowed by the TO or spotters or peanut gallery. Is informing the shooter that a SG target is still standing considered coaching? Someone yelling “hull” or “lever” or “one more” if the shooter fired 9 instead of the required 10, is permissible and part of our safety etiquette. 

I tend to tune out everyone and everything except the TO and the bay in front of me (I participate in several sports).

 

I'm the one actively engaged in pushing speed with live firearms.

 

About the only thing I will acknowledge from anyone outside of my small world at the time is an authoritative "Cease Fire!"

 

I may consider other input if I register it but I do own the stage. I am responsible for safely executing the stage. 

 

Coaching? I can't see it changing the outcome of a match, perhaps rank somewhere down the list by a bit, but at the top end? No. At the same time, coaching can not be expected nor can lack of coaching be a cause for complaint.

 

At the extreme limits of what can go wrong with relying on coaching or any assistance rather than any standard other than "the shooter owns the stage" being the only acceptable standard, I recommend a review of the recent "Baldwin Incident." 

 

 

 

 

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I was told No. If you didn't bring it to the line with you you can't use it. 
And that's why I made and carry a screw knife.

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6 minutes ago, Tucker McNeely said:

YL,  great questions. I’ve caused a SDQ because I told shooter to do something as a spotter.  It messed with the shooter and the TO was not ready to help. I’ve seen peanut gallery cause the shooter to earn a SDQ.  I absolutely love this game because we want everyone to do awesome and have a good time.  We have to stop the urge to shout out to our friends. There is a better than average chance it will cause a SDQ.   

Good points. Not sure better than average, but there is a chance. And a chance for a safety failure.

 

I have a jam. I forgot my knife. One shows up in front of me. I know how to use it and I do; I finish the stage not quite in last place.

 

Now lets change one thing... I do not really know how to use the knife safely, but have seen other's do it before and it just magically showed up in front of me...

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2 minutes ago, Tucker McNeely said:

I’m with you, but I’d hate to be furnished a tool to clear my jammed rifle and get an extra 10 seconds added.

I would likely declare bad gun and take my lumps but am not taking a position this declaration is required.

 

At this time, I am, however, going to bed. I'll catch up later.

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There is NO rule about using or accepting a tool (whether the tool originated on the shooter or from another posse member).

 

Nor should there be.

As a TO and posse member; I have offered direction, offered tools, or physically cleared a malfunction for the shooter.

 

This did not NEGATIVELY affect anyone at the match - and only offered the affected shooter a more positive and a more safe outcome.

 

 

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If my cap ‘n’ ball pistol jams and I don’t have my knife or a suitable substitute to knock the wedge loose so that I can remove the barrel and clear the jam, I am likely to pick up a rock or other object to complete the task.
 

I have broken down and cleared my revolver on at least three separate occasions at major matches to save a clean match!  
 

In each case, I had my knife handy to accomplish this.  If I HAD picked up a rock or another object to do this, how would that be different from using someone else’s knife or other offered tool??

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