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Black powder - volume vs weight.


Warden Callaway

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I consider loading black powder somewhat a primitive art form much like camp fire cooking or butchering. Takes some knowledge but not complicated. Some people try to make it more complicated and confusing than it needs to be. And everyone has their way of doing it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Everyone in their right mind KNOWS black powder isn’t weighted, that it is measured by volume.  That’s why when they buy a new jug of black powder the label reads 76% because that’s how full the one pound jug is.  Da!

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I weigh several volume charges and then set the powder measure to drop that weight. Does vary a little lot to lot or brand to brand.

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I have no earthly idea what y'all's problem is... my MEC, Dillon and RCBS are all VOLUME measures, it doesn't have a weight until I scale it... and since its BP, why bother, either the volume is correct or it isn't... Too little and the load goes "pfft", or too much and it spills on the bench!   Even my BPCRS loads are loaded by volume!  Anything over 85 grains and the bullet won't seat properly!  Reminds me... I need to decrease the size of my bushing in the MEC, Sunday's loads were a mite stout!

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6 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I weigh several volume charges and then set the powder measure to drop that weight. Does vary a little lot to lot or brand to brand.

Unless you are using one of those EXPENSIVE digital powder measures all mechanical powder measures dispense the powder by volume.

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I still use dippers for calibers I load on my Turret press, but for my main match .38 BP ammo loaded on a 550, I now just adjust the powder measure until the amount of powder in the case "looks about right".  

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17 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I weigh several volume charges and then set the powder measure to drop that weight. Does vary a little lot to lot or brand to brand.

There is a significant weight difference between some brands of BP, for instance Old Eynsford and Schuetzen or Swiss. The OE weighs less than the same volume of Schutzen or Swiss and is hotter, about 5-8%, by volume. If you used the same load by weight it would be considerably hotter.

kR

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22 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

There is a significant weight difference between some brands of BP, for instance Old Eynsford and Schuetzen or Swiss. The OE weighs less than the same volume of Schutzen or Swiss and is hotter, about 5-8%, by volume. If you used the same load by weight it would be considerably hotter.

kR

A volume vs weight varies from lot to lot of powder.

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33 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

There is a significant weight difference between some brands of BP, for instance Old Eynsford and Schuetzen or Swiss. The OE weighs less than the same volume of Schutzen or Swiss and is hotter, about 5-8%, by volume. If you used the same load by weight it would be considerably hotter.

kR

Thanks Kid. That's why I weigh a few volume throws first and then set up by weight for the powder I'm using. Easier to check powder drops by weight once I know how much they weigh. For instance with my SG, I use 3.1cc of 2F Goex which weighs 41 grains. Then set powder measure to drop 41 grains.

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12 hours ago, J.D. Daily said:

Unless you are using one of those EXPENSIVE digital powder measures all mechanical powder measures dispense the powder by volume.

I concur, it's just easier to weigh than try to adjust the measure and then put it in a dipper to get the right amount. If I weigh a few dipper fulls, then I can just adjust to that weight.

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49 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

A volume vs weight varies from lot to lot of powder.

Which is what I stated in my post. Varies lot to lot and brand to brand. So far with Graf's and Goex, only a couple grains at 3.1cc.

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3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

A volume vs weight varies from lot to lot of powder.

It can vary a lot in just one pound of powder.  Especially as that powder is moved and jostled.  Granules can break down and change how they burn... It can run you amok trying to figure out what's the perfect repeatable method to measure a charge.  Pick one and don't worry about it... If your SD numbers run too high, you've failed.  Single digit SDs are good, the farther you are from a single digit, the worse off you are.  For my cowboy loads... I don't worry about it.  Even long distance in cowboy matches I don't sweat the weight if the volume is correct...  Beyond 300 yards, you should be checking a number of factors for shot to shot uniformity.

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On 3/8/2023 at 6:15 PM, J.D. Daily said:

Unless you are using one of those EXPENSIVE digital powder measures all mechanical powder measures dispense the powder by volume.

Indeed adjust the volume of the measure to drop the proper weight.  In the case of BP one could use a volumetric BP measure to get a 65 grain charge, weight it then adjust the lyman or other powder measure to drop that weight and one would then have the measure set to drop the volume of 65 grains.

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WEIGHT! 

When black powder was really and truly a quality (dense) powder, 40gr by weight equaled 40gr by volume. As the weight of batches of powdered varied, the amount of powder, compressed for the bullet to be seated at the proper depth, varied. The 44-40 powder was 40gr and compressed nearly .21" in order to get 40gr to fit. Why, because a 44-40 case is only about 42gr by volumetric measurement, meaning the case (a modern case) can be filled with .42gr of water.

 

After dissecting various pre-1884 and post 1884 factory loaded cartridges, this compression varied between .17" and .21" (some due to the case design) to fit 40gr by weight and to seat a 200gr lead bullet. In the field, various vintage dissected handloaded cartridges yielded 35gr of uncompressed powder using old E. Remington solid-head, semi-balloon pocket cases and Winchester post 1878 primers with Ideal tooled, hand cast lead bullets.

With todays variances in how much black powder actually weighs (less dense than original bp), the handloader will need to fill the case and compress as needed to seat the desired bullet. Remove and weigh the powder to see how cheep, I mean, how much it weights...then convert that to volume. 

 

Today, Swiss FFg is the nearest to 40gr by weight to equal 40gr by volume. Some cheep black powder, basically less dense, will weigh less thus never being able to fit 40gr by weight even when compressed.

So, to get the most out of your cartridge, load by weight that has been converted to volume.

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16 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

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Exactly, loading by weight or by volume is a matter of perspective pending the outcome of one's needs. For hitting little steel targets at 25 feet, load by volume to fill the case as needed, insert bullet and let it go bang/ding. If loading for hunting where ballistic performance is a must, fill it per weight and compress it to fit the dang volume. No, it's not rocket science but it does take a bit of understanding.

 

Actually, in an attempt to be more clear. The "volume" of the 44-40 case (as an example) is the area between the base of the seated bullet and the head, at or around the primer. If the loader fills the case with black powder, up to the base of the bullet...he will never be able to get 40gr to fit without compressing the powder (originally speaking here). When smokeless powders came out, they were manufactured to replace black powder "volume for volume" meaning the volume from the base of the bullet to the head of the case. This was a tad mis-leading because unlike black powder, the loader was instructed to NOT COMPRESS the bulk smokeless powder. Thus, in reality 40gr by volume of originally used black powder was not equal to the same volume of smokeless powder...UNLESS the black powder was compressed. Therefore black powder was not loaded by volume. It was loaded by weight and then COMPRESSED TO FIT THE VOLUME!

 

Nothing is ever simple!

I have to add....it was not that the early bulk for bulk could not be compressed....it was that when it was compressed, the "crumbled powder "could turn to dust and if not shot in a short period of time, the dust would settle around the primer and cause issues...unlike compressed black powder

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Grains are a measure of weight not volume. Going by weight will always be more consistent. Using volume alone can result in weight variation up to roughly 20% depending on technique. 
 

When loading smokless you choose a weight to load, why would you do any different with black?  The only exception would be the substitutes which started this entire myth of black being measured by volume. 

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15 hours ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

Grains are a measure of weight not volume. Going by weight will always be more consistent. Using volume alone can result in weight variation up to roughly 20% depending on technique. 
 

When loading smokless you choose a weight to load, why would you do any different with black powder?

Because the differant brands of BP can vary in weight for the same volume. Load it, press it, crimp it.;)

A Few Photos Illustrating How to Determine Powder Compression (cascity.com)

 

Jefro:ph34r:Relax-Enjoy

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