New 750/crushing 44/40 cases. ?

[Slip Hammer Yates 8456]

I recently traded a couple 450s and square deals for this new 750.  The 44/40 conversion is used.  I have loaded 44/40s for years with very little problems on a square deal.  The Redding 44/40 dies I never used until I got the 750.

I wad reloading this am and crushed several cases.  The picture is an example.  I tried adjusting dies, the shell plate and belling the case. So any idea what I am doing wrong?

The other problem at times it seems the primers are going in at an angle sometimes causing one side of the primer to ride up and over the pocket.

 

[Canton Chris]

What case lube are you using?

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

First thing I noticed is the coating is scraped off at the bottom of the bullet showing above the case. So it seems either your bullets are too large a diameter or your dies are too small, or both. Maybe you can still use them if you bell the cases a bit more, maybe not. Are you seating and crimping with one die or 2?

[August West, SASS #45079]

Is your press mounted on a SOLID table that is bolted TO THE WALL STUDS?  Redding dies are made for single stage presses and don't have the chamfering at the opening that Dillon dies have.  There has to be a slight hitch in yer giddy-up between the end of the downstroke and the beginning of the upstroke (priming) to allow everything to settle down.

[Ya Big Tree]

Are the bullets .427 diameter or .430 diameter? If .430 you will need a 44 Magnum expander in the sizing die to open it up enough for the larger diameter bullets.

Mainly It looks like it's trying to crimp to soon as it's seating the bullet. Will the bullet load into the case ok with the roll crimp backed off? 

["Big Boston"]

IIRC I had a similar issue when I was setting up my 550. A 550 is not entirely the same as a 750, but Redding dies are pretty consistent. 

 

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details but this is what I think I found. My Redding seating die was the issue. I'm guessing the seating die is designed for 0.425" or 0.426" bullets and my grooves were more like 429 - 430. So what happened was that the bullet was getting stopped before it even hit the seating plug. 

 

This is my set-up now, I use a LEE FL die, with about 050 trimmed off the bottom, (it only needed about 010, but I didn't want to have to do the grinding twice. For the powder i ended up buying a 44 mag expander to make things work correctly. Then i seated with a LEE seater as it had lots of clearance. I had to flatten the seating stem to keep from marking the bullet. Then for crimping, i used the Redding seating die. After the bullet is seated, it works ok with my bullet. 

 

But I still like the 44-40, but it is a red haired stepchild. 

 

BB

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

as mentioned, seat and crimp in two different stations. Seat, then crimp with Lee Taper crimp die.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Bell with a die that lets you get at least a flare that measures 0.431" inside diameter, and that the button for expanding will make sure you can hand seat a bullet into the mouth at least 1/3 of the way to final position.  MEASURE the bell with a caliper, not eyeball it.  Measure the diameter of the expander button.  If it is not 0.430 or .431, you need a BIGGER diameter button (or a whole new die) to  expand that case neck.  A .44 magnum button will be the right size!  Publish us a pic of the expanded and belled case.  Put in the measured ID's from your calipers for the belled mouth and the expander button.   If you are using the Dillon "powder funnel" die for .44-40, that is probably the major problem.  You need to have them send you a powder funnel for .44 mag.

 

Seat with a standard seater die, and make sure the mouth is left a couple of hairs short (at least 0.010") of any bullet land above the crimp groove.   This die is the LEAST critical, but make sure NOT to let it crimp!   And to not let the mouth of cases jam into the lead of a land on the bullet. Post up a picture of the bullet seated in the case, getting real close like you did with the crumpled cases.  This is not a place to try to use the Redding Profile Crimp die to do the seating.... it WILL NOT work well for that.

 

Crimp in next step at next station.   Now, a Redding Profile Crimp die at this station will work most easily for crimping - NOT a Redding seater die.   If you have confused the two, straighten yourself out.   A Lee factory crimp die can be made to work in most situations.  Neither of these two dies will seat a bullet well.  They are crimpers only.  Only turn the crimp into the crimp groove until the brass no longer sticks out proud of the bullet.   Post a picture at this step, too.

 

Crumpled cases indicate that you are getting some crimp when seating the slug.  Although heavy wall cases can stand this, a .44-40 with very thin brass will not stand up to this. 

 

All this picture posting will help us help you.  Because it will make you take a closer look, and it will let us see for our own selves.

 

Quote

primers are going in at an angle

 

If your shell plate is not traveling fully to the detent stop, you can have problems getting the primer to come up into the primer pocket.  Sounds like you need to clean the shell plate area, the detent ball area, and watch real closely that you are getting the proper amount of rotation on the shell plate!

 

good luck GJ 

 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Sort of a long shot for the primers, but double check you are using the correct shell plate and buttons called for by Dillon.

[J.D. Daily]

I haven't had experience loading 44-40 on my XL650 so I can't help with the crushing problem other than to say that the bench has to be bolted to the studs in a wall.  I had an issue with the sizing die crushing the case mouths of straight wall cartridges.  I also modified all my toolheads by installing Uniquetek toolhead clamp kits.  This eliminates the movement of the toolhead when the Dillion toolhead locator pins are used.

P.S.  The 1st batch of 45 Colt I reloaded I had a few high primers; so, I check the Dillion website for troubleshooting advice.  The problem was traced to my arm motion.  I consciously made sure that I positively pushed the handle forward until I felt a firm stop. No more high primers.

[Sedalia Dave]

For primer seating make sure it is properly adjusted. Refer to section 8.2 of your manual.

 

Then refer to section 10 and make sure the shell plate is indexing properly.

[Savvy Jack]

Looks like a chevy 350 piston trying to get pushed into a VW cylinder.
 

My guess would be a .429 or a .430 lead bullet getting shoved into a case neck resized for .4255" jacketed bullets.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Case mouth flare is critical 

[Slip Hammer Yates 8456]

I am loading commercial bullets that are sized .430.  I bet the die is part of the problem in that they are set for a real 44/40 at .427.  Although I have had these dies for awhile, I never used them as I always loaded on a square deal where I never had a problem.  A number of ideas have been suggested which I will look at one by one.  Thanks for the input.  

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Dillon has two neck expanders for use with the .44-40.  If you are using .425 - .427 you need a number 4.  For .429 -.430 you should be using the G expander.

 

 

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

Your primer issue may be due to shell plate alignment. Adjusting the shell plate may help with your case problem too.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/186691-dillon-650-shell-plate-out-of-alignment/

 

Alignment tool from Dillon.

https://www.dillonprecision.com/13713

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

As others have noted, 44 mag bullets are larger Han than 44-40.  Try using a 44 mag powder funnel/expander die.  (And a little more case bell).

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Primer issues on Dillon preses come from up/down play in the shell plate.

You want NO play and have the plate just turn freely. 

[Slip Hammer Yates 8456]

I want to thank everyone for their suggestions.  I got it figured out.  I was not flaring the case mouth enough.  I measured and it was only .425 or six.  Flared it to .431 using a 44 mag g powder funnel.  I load 44mag/sp on this machine too. I used the 44 mag seating die to seat the bullet and then used the 44/40 seating die to crimp. At this point this seems to be working although I was advised not to use this die for crimping.  We will see if I change this later.  In addition as suggested I got a slight hitch in my giddy up between the down and up stroke which smoothed the operation out.  I also adjusted the shell plate and took some of the wiggle out of the cases.  Finally I  adjusted the plate so it would line up better with the primer pocket.  It didn't seem to be off much at all but evidently enough.  So I finished reloading my 44/40 and broke the machine down to set it up for 9mm.  We will see how that goes. 

[July Smith]

If you are loading smokeless and running these loads out of a rifle be sure to put a good crimp on the bullets.  I got a little over zealous with expanding my 44-40s and found a number of my bullets would telescope into the case when fired in a 44-40 rifle.  My solution was to expand just enough and fill the case with BP, no more telescoping bullets now.  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Test your crimp strength!

 

Take a finished round in hand, find a solid vertical wood surface that you don't worry about denting.    Press the nose of the loaded round hard against the wood surface, put some weight into it.  If the bullet does not move down into the case, you have a firm crimp that will prevent telescoped rounds that jam a lever gun.

 

As to JUST crimping with a Dillon seat/crimp die - that will work OK.  Adjust it so as to do NO further insertion of the slug, only crimping.  That means only the outer shell of die is adjusted down to touch the round and crimp, the seater stem is backed off to no longer touch the bullet nose.   What this die does NOT control is bulging in the neck if you crimp too hard or crimp into a land instead of a crimp groove and the case neck needs to get out of the impact area, by bulging down lower on the neck.

 

good luck, GJ