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Dawn Dish Soap and Cleaning brass


Sedalia Dave

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Lots of people like to use Dawn dish soap when cleaning brass. How many are aware that Dawn dish soap contains a significant amount of sulphuric acid.  Most formulations of Dawn has a ph between 9 and 9.5. However the Powerwash version has a ph of 11.1 This is the same ph as ammonia. 

The high ph levels in Dawn are why is cleans so well. HOWEVER, it also means that it will harm brass it left in contact with it for too long. Most other dish soaps and laundry soaps have a ph around 7.5

 

Discovered by accident how corrosive Dawn dish soap is. Now I always make it a point to read the SDS for a given cleaning product before I use it.

 

Corrected the narritave. While is does contain Sulphuric Acid this is not the real issue What is concerning is that the ph is very basic (alkaline) which is just as bad as being too acidic.

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2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

..................it will harm brass it left in contact with it for too long...................

 

I switched from Dawn to auto wash/wax combo years ago so I don't have a dog in the fight.  But just out of pure curiosity, what exactly is "too long"? 

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I'm confused (again).  Shouldn't a high level of Sulphuric Acid make it more acidic, this  LOWERING the pH?  

 

(pH being the NEGATIVE logrythm of the H+ ion concentration.)

image.png.f976533ae2f89154e23acd0acc297251.png

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I'm confused (again).  Shouldn't a high level of Sulphuric Acid make it more acidic, this  LOWERING the pH?  

 

(pH being the NEGATIVE logrythm of the H+ ion concentration.)

image.png.f976533ae2f89154e23acd0acc297251.png

 

You're corect I didn't look a a ph chart. Part of the data required on any products Safety Data Sheet (SDS) is it's ph. I was looking at the list chemicals and the fact that Dawn appears to contain a large percentage of Sulphuric Acid caught my eye as did the high ph numbers. I correlated the two without realizing that they are on opposite ends of the ph scale.

 

Even with my error Dawn dish soap is a lot higher ph than most other soaps I have looked at.

 

What got me to looking is I put some Dawn dish soap on a container of brass but got distracted and delayed adding water for several hours. Noticed that pure dawn really attacked the brass.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Use car wash soap instead. 

Rinse twice.....

Using cash wash is fine but I really hate taking a buffer to the cases when I wax them. :lol:

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5 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

You're corect I didn't look a a ph chart. Part of the data required on any products Safety Data Sheet (SDS) is it's ph. I was looking at the list chemicals and the fact that Dawn appears to contain a large percentage of Sulphuric Acid caught my eye as did the high ph numbers. I correlated the two without realizing that they are on opposite ends of the ph scale.

 

Even with my error Dawn dish soap is a lot higher ph than most other soaps I have looked at.

 

What got me to looking is I put some Dawn dish soap on a container of brass but got distracted and delayed adding water for several hours. Noticed that pure dawn really attacked the brass.

 

 

I've noticed the same thing, and agree with you.  There is something in Dawn that reacts with the brass.   If you wet brass in pure Dawn, and dry it beside the fireplace,  the brass surface gets pasty with a blue precipitant, suggesting the copper is chemically reacting at the metal surface. 

 

I haven't yet tried wet tumbling without detergent.  But I did try tossing in a dishwasher packet.  It was much too abrasive.  It scratched/dulled the brass surface.  

 

Has anyone tried wet tumbling in a baking soda solution?  Baking soda (Bicarbonate) will buffer the liquid to near pH 7, and in solid form it is a good polishing agent.  

Just asking. 

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I use inexpensive liquid laundry soap that I came from Dollar General. Works great and I have been using the same 1 gallon jug for about 3 years now.  Run a load of brass at least twice a month.

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I have used simple green for many years with good results. They used to sponsor the short lived professional handball league that is what convinced me to use it. Professional handball player only in my mind. DC

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8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I'm confused (again).  Shouldn't a high level of Sulphuric Acid make it more acidic, this  LOWERING the pH?  

 

(pH being the NEGATIVE logrythm of the H+ ion concentration.)

image.png.f976533ae2f89154e23acd0acc297251.png

 

Looking at this chart, I can only assume that the pH of my blood is a solid 5.

 

1567225866_Farside-CaffineLimitCowboys.png.5abcd024f777a28c048eb29cdbf0011f.png

 

 

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I still use a healthy squirt of Dawn and a 9 mm case of Lemonshine.  I put the brass in the jug, fill with water and then put in the Dawn and Lemonshine.  I run the tumbler for 90 minutes and then rinse the brass till all soap is gone.  Spread out on a towel to dry.  I've noticed no problems and the brass is nice and shiny.  I don't think a 90 minute exposure to diluted Dawn is going to effect the brass at all.  I wouldn't worry about it.

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I'm no chemist, but as many have commonly added Lemishine or Citristrip to their mix with Dawn or Car Wash/Wax, they are effectively reducing the high alkaline condition that creates the leaching of zinc from the brass, which can cause the brown spotting.  I've tested my mixturement with test strips and I keep it at around a pH of 7.  

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Thanks Dave, this fills in the blanks on something that happened to me.  I used to presoak my BP brass in water with a small squirt of Dawn, to keep it from corroding.  I wouldn't tumble it until I had a full jug of brass.  Sometimes the brass would soak for 3 weeks.

 

All of a sudden, I started having primer tops breaking when trying to deprime, which leaves the cylinder of the primer in the pocket.  Can't get it out, can't reprime it, brass is scrap.  For a while, it was 1 case out of 10 that couldn't be deprimed.  Talk about making reloading a pain the the old bee-hind.  The only way you could tell that the primer had broken was when  you tried to seat a new primer.  It got so bad, I took a couple of afternoons & decapped every piece of brass I had in the single stage press, so it couldn't slow down loading on the Dillon.

 

I read some others on the Wire saying they had that problem as well & thought it was from range brass that had been rained on, etc., so I stopped soaking.  I would tumble my BP brass the day after use in small batches instead.  Well, guess what...the primer caps stayed attached!  I have had maybe 3 pieces of brass that I couldn't deprime since I stopped presoaking.

 

To quote Paul Harvey, now I may know the rest of the story!  Looks like the Dawn soap was just aggressive enough to corrode the primer brass at the weakest point.  Lesson learned, the hard way.

 

Holler

IMG_4372.jpg

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22 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Use car wash soap instead. 

Rinse twice.....

Armor All Wash and Wax (makes the cases feed a bit better in the dies) throw in a bit of Lemi Shine tumble for two hours and rinse three times.   I have some sitting in the sun right now.  Should be ready to reload in a couple of hours.

B2024179-9C04-4BCD-A3BA-F1489A86826A.jpeg

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The tech folks at Starline doubt that a squirt of Dawn in your cleaning solution would be so caustic as to ruin your brass.

That being said, I think I'll go back to using the Ajax Orange flavored soap that's half the price of Dawn, and a pinch of Lemi Shine.
Alwways does a good job in my tumbler! 

--Dawg

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2 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

The tech folks at Starline doubt that a squirt of Dawn in your cleaning solution would be so caustic as to ruin your brass.

That being said, I think I'll go back to using the Ajax Orange flavored soap that's half the price of Dawn, and a pinch of Lemi Shine.
Alwways does a good job in my tumbler! 

--Dawg

 

 

I don’t care how it’s flavored I ain’t eating it.  :D

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7 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

The tech folks at Starline doubt that a squirt of Dawn in your cleaning solution would be so caustic as to ruin your brass.

That being said, I think I'll go back to using the Ajax Orange flavored soap that's half the price of Dawn, and a pinch of Lemi Shine.
Alwways does a good job in my tumbler! 

--Dawg

 

My way of thinking is how much Dawn in how much water matters as does how long you leave them in the solution. 

 

A couple of times I have forgotten about brass in the tumbler and left them sitting overnight. 

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Still haven't found the need for additives in my Lizard Litter.  Younz (Pittsburgheeze) just work too hard at it.

Ditto!! Why do we seem to want to make this so complicated. Like Cypress Sam says, "always searching for a solution to a non existing problem". Oh, I'm a Younzer too! Good cleanin' and shootin'!

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Works fine - especially if you like nutty-flavored corn bread.  :lol:

 

Actually, the walnut hull is all you need, the corn cob will get ground down by the walnut hulls pretty fast.  Would you use a sandpaper that had mixed grit size in it?  Then why would you mix strong abrasive particles (walnut) and fragile polishing particles in the same vibratory bowl?

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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The mineral (Ca++ and Mg++) content of your water is the missing unknown in all these posts.

So many water districts need NO Lemi shine

Some hard water districts need a lot of need a lot of softening (Lemi shine)

Do your own testing for your water

 

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On 2/27/2023 at 7:32 PM, Tucker McNeely said:

Looking forward to the results from using coffee to wash brass.  

It works ok, but I had to switch to decaf. Kept my brass up all night!

:D

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12 hours ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

It works ok, but I had to switch to decaf. Kept my brass up all night!

:D

Do they sit in the box and “brass jingle” all night?  Send in Shortcake, she set ‘em straight. 

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On 2/28/2023 at 9:29 AM, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

Thanks Dave, this fills in the blanks on something that happened to me.  I used to presoak my BP brass in water with a small squirt of Dawn, to keep it from corroding.  I wouldn't tumble it until I had a full jug of brass.  Sometimes the brass would soak for 3 weeks.

 

All of a sudden, I started having primer tops breaking when trying to deprime, which leaves the cylinder of the primer in the pocket.  Can't get it out, can't reprime it, brass is scrap.  For a while, it was 1 case out of 10 that couldn't be deprimed.  Talk about making reloading a pain the the old bee-hind.  The only way you could tell that the primer had broken was when  you tried to seat a new primer.  It got so bad, I took a couple of afternoons & decapped every piece of brass I had in the single stage press, so it couldn't slow down loading on the Dillon.

 

I read some others on the Wire saying they had that problem as well & thought it was from range brass that had been rained on, etc., so I stopped soaking.  I would tumble my BP brass the day after use in small batches instead.  Well, guess what...the primer caps stayed attached!  I have had maybe 3 pieces of brass that I couldn't deprime since I stopped presoaking.

 

To quote Paul Harvey, now I may know the rest of the story!  Looks like the Dawn soap was just aggressive enough to corrode the primer brass at the weakest point.  Lesson learned, the hard way.

 

Holler

IMG_4372.jpg

A sharpened awl will pop the ring right out.  I have one that came in a set mechanic's oil seal removers that popped mine out when I had that happen to some .40-90SBN & .30-30 cases.  BTW, none of the .30-30 cases had ever seen a drop of water, let alone water with Dawn in it.    While Dawn may exacerbate whatever the cause is, Dawn by itself isn't the lone culprit.

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12 hours ago, Tucker McNeely said:

Do they sit in the box and “brass jingle” all night?  Send in Shortcake, she set ‘em straight. 

Truth!

I can't control that powerful Irish personality, but I can guide it now and then.

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15 hours ago, Tucker McNeely said:

Do they sit in the box and “brass jingle” all night?  Send in Shortcake, she set ‘em straight. 

They pretty much just lie around open mouthed!:lol:

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thanks for this thread a lot of great info has been presented , im sure there will be those that continue some of the practices that have had doubts cast on them here but ive felt doing what works for you is best , i dont shoot black much and i dry tumble but i havesaved some of the presented methods over the years in case i started shooting a lot of black , now i may revise some of that , 

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I guess after all this discussion I’ll just keep using a squirt of car polish (not wax) and a cap-full of mineral spirits!

 

(My wife doesn’t like me cleaning my brass in the dishwasher anyway!)

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I use a small squirt of Dawn with the first tumbling, but only 30 minutes.  Then rinse well, and replace with water with Lemishine...60 mins later rinse well and give it 30 more minutes with cold water and a small amount of Kroger Rinse Aid.

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