Need Some Help to Identify This Gun

[Subdeacon Joe]

My Google-fu has failed me.  A FB friend posted this photo:

 

My first thought is a wall gun, or maybe a swivel gun, given that hit has trunnions and dolphins.  Has anyone seen such a creature before?

[Pat Riot]

I have in pictures but I don’t recall why or what. 
I think it may have been a boarding gun aboard Navy or pirate ships. A sailor stays aboard the aggressor’s vessel and uses it to protect boarders. 
I am not sure about that though. 

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

looks like another case , of well I got parts 

 

 and LOTS of RUM 

 

 figure it started life as a swivel gun , the the booze took over 

 

  CB 

[Subdeacon Joe]

50 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I have in pictures but I don’t recall why or what. 
I think it may have been a boarding gun aboard Navy or pirate ships. A sailor stays aboard the aggressor’s vessel and uses it to protect boarders. 
I am not sure about that though. 

 

 

So a swivel gun of sorts.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Harpoon gun, maybe?

[Dantankerous]

Looks scarey. I hope biden bans that soon.

[Eyesa Horg]

The sling makes it appear to be shot outlaw!

[Subdeacon Joe]

46 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Harpoon gun, maybe?

 

Too small.

[Pat Riot]

52 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

Looks scarey. I hope biden bans that soon.

Heck, you’d blow out 2 lungs with that one. 

[Pat Riot]

A little info. I looked up “swivel gun boarding gun” and “swivel gun flintlock” and found these. I must admit that I now want one. 

 

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_Massive_Flintlock_Naval_Swivel_Gun_from_The_Cecil-LOT291550.aspx

 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/76/383/large-flintlock-swivel-gun
 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/74/3121/cooper-goodman-marked-9-bore-flintlock-blunderbuss-swivel-gun

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

A little info. I looked up “swivel gun boarding gun” and “swivel gun flintlock” and found these. I must admit that I now want one. 

 

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_Massive_Flintlock_Naval_Swivel_Gun_from_The_Cecil-LOT291550.aspx

 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/76/383/large-flintlock-swivel-gun
 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/74/3121/cooper-goodman-marked-9-bore-flintlock-blunderbuss-swivel-gun

Pat, I understand you want one. I know that you've retired and have free time on your hands. But, let me help you out, just a bit, with geography. Morgantown, WV is a long way from the sea for you to be taking up piracy as a hobby. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

5 minutes ago, Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme said:

Pat, I understand you want one. I know that you've retired and have free time on your hands. But, let me help you out, just a bit, with geography. Morgantown, WV is a long way from the sea for you to be taking up piracy as a hobby. 

 

How far is he from navigable rivers? Make those fishermen heave to and hand over their beer.

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

The West Virginia border is on the north side of the Ohio river. Would be a great gun to keep those pesky buckeyes on their side of the river.

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

That thing may be a requirement on the Ohio River after the mutant monster fish start to spawn, thanks to a certain chemical disaster.

 

Imis

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Too small.

Line throwing gun, maybe? 

[Pat Riot]

4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Line throwing gun, maybe? 

Nah, back when those guns were in vogue sailors were so good they just sent the heaving line across with a monkey fist. 

[Texas Joker]

Punt gun

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Steampunk; dirigible boarding hand cannon.

[Subdeacon Joe]

7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Line throwing gun, maybe? 

 

Might could be.  Although the thickness of the barrel and the trunnions sort of argue against that.

But;

https://www.wilson55.com/news/line-throwing-gun/

 

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

9 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

Steampunk; dirigible boarding hand cannon.

I’m with Red. It looks like part of a steampunk costume. 
 

And I want one!

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

21 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

Looks scarey. I hope biden bans that soon.

Go to your room.  No TV for you tonight, young man.  

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

12 hours ago, Texas Joker said:

Punt gun

Punt?  I wouldn't allow that on any grid iron I ever saw.

[Caladisi kid]

Ok, so my sister is an underwater nautical archeologist/restoration expert, worked in labs and without knowing any markings/history or location of the item, this is her thoughts.

Okay, so very interesting! Lots of thoughts... and a little background info thrown in.

From the photo, it’s difficult to tell for sure if this is a bronze swivel gun that was modified, or made intentionally as it is shown. Cast bronze swivel guns like this typically won’t be found with a flintlock mechanism (French swivel guns are an exception but the flintlock for those are usually found on the top of the barrel, not on the side). Swivel guns are either muzzle loaded from the front and fired from the rear through a vent hole on the top of the barrel OR loaded with a breech block from the rear that contains both the ammunition/shot along with the gun powder. So... this particular gun doesn’t really fall into any of those categories.

Swivel guns are typically short, around 3 ft long, and made to carry/maneuver more easily around a ship to use on whatever side of the ship it is needed. More of an anti-personnel gun and not to “sink a ship”... more of a repel-the-boarders and close quarters deterrent. It would have been held in a yoke, balanced by the trunnions (the cylindrical protrusions from the side of the barrel) and swiveled side to side and up and down as needed. It could be lifted off the yoke and carried to another area of the gunwale of the ship to be used/fired there to repel or deter anything close. Hence the name given - swivel!

Swivel guns were either made out of cast iron or cast bronze. Bronze was preferred in a ship/salt water setting because bronze is more corrosion resistant than iron for that use, but bronze guns were more expensive than cast iron; I’ve read historical documents that mentioned 7-10 cast iron swivel guns could be manufactured for the cost of *1* cast bronze gun (swivel gun, cannon, etc). So there was a trade-off. Bronze was always preferred but the cost factor had to be considered. NOTE: this is why king’s ships and 1st rate ships of the line usually had bronze cannon on them - they could afford it!

Also, once the technology to cast large amounts of molten metal became more prevalent, the process to do that was still tricky and there are only a few countries/regions that excelled at casting bronze barrels. The Dutch were famous for the quality of their cast bronze guns and sold them to every other country that needed them, so you’ll find Dutch guns on French ships, Portuguese ships, English, Italian and many other countries. One other region known for their cast bronze gun casting was Asia. They had an excellent source of both copper and tin since Asia was trading with everyone back in the day.

So... swivel guns are smaller ordnance, like in the photo... typically used on ships because of the tight quarters for use and maneuverability on ship... cast bronze guns were usually used in a marine/salty environment (ship, fortification building protecting a port or channel, etc). So I would say this firearm was used either on a ship or somewhere on land near the sea.

The two dolphins that are visible on the top are called the lifting lugs/lifting rings/dolphins that you see on much larger, heavier bronze ordnance, used to lift the firearm on a carriage, etc. And it is cast as dolphins because it is more decorated (if you’re paying more money for a firearm it might as well look good, too). Bronze swivel guns, even though they are shorter, were cast as “smaller cannon” and all of the features for a larger bronze gun just stayed over. So anytime you see a bronze gun with dolphins on the top, you can be nearly certain that this was used on a ship (nautical) and a smaller swivel gun with the same features would have been used on a ship, too. So yes, it would be nautical.

It is difficult to tell from the photo if this firearm was made intentionally this way (nautical cast bronze swivel gun paired with a flintlock firing mechanism) or if a nautical bronze swivel gun was modified later with a flintlock. Either way, a flintlock firing mechanism is VERY unusual. So I would say that this firearm was modified a t some point in its use-life: it started out as a swivel gun on a ship or land-based sea fort and then it was modified later with a flintlock firing mechanism. 

It would be interesting to see if there is evidence of a vent hole at the top of the barrel. If yes, then the gun was originally a swivel gun and then it was modified with the flintlock. If no evidence of a vent hole on the top, then the vent will only be a small hole visible on the side of the barrel (for a flintlock) and this forearm was made originally and intentionally as seen on the photo.

As for age, I’m going by when cast bronze nautical swivel guns would have been most in use: 1600s to late 1870s. So, 17th century to late 19th century.

More definitive info (age and country of manufacture, and sometimes weight of gun) can be found with either cast or engraved markings found at the:
1. Rear of the gun called the base ring
2. Top of the barrel 
3. Ends of the trunnions

If markings are part of the casting process, they’ll be easy to see even without conservation. Engraved markings (typically at the base ring and trunnion ends) usually become visible after proper conservation.

Are any markings visible in these areas of this firearm?

Interesting piece of history! A flintlock is very unusual to find on a ship’s swivel gun. If I had to guess, I would say this firearm was cast in Asia in a location that was making lots of bronze swivel guns for ships and was installed with a flintlock firing mechanism for use by someone in a land-based shore fort; the flintlock would make it easier to fire by someone carrying it around and firing it, as opposed to someone firing it while trying to hold it steady on a moving, rocking ship (which is why swivel guns were usually mounted for stability on a yoke on a gunwale, etc). 17th to late 19th century, no way to know for sure unless markings on the barrel are visible and can be identified.

Swivel guns! Fun little firearms. I certainly wouldn’t want to be looking down the barrel of one of those at close quarters with it loaded with a large shot (metal or stone), glass shards or nails... ouch!
 

[Major Crimes]

This photo was on the Flintlock site I am a member of and someone had a photo of it being fired by someone Flintlock Era | Facebook

 

This was the consensus and had a photo 

Cannibal Crispy’s “cannobus”. I had the opportunity to fire it a few years ago.

 

Cannibal Crispy’s gun, Florida. One of a kind dog lock made by Campbell Cannon and Carriage.

 

 

 

[Pat Riot]

@Caladisi kid

Please thank your sister for us. That was a great history lesson.  Very cool! 

[Subdeacon Joe]

6 hours ago, Caladisi kid said:

Ok, so my sister is an underwater nautical archeologist/restoration expert, worked in labs and without knowing any markings/history or location of the item, this is her thoughts.

Okay, so very interesting! Lots of thoughts... and a little background info thrown in.

From the photo, it’s difficult to tell for sure if this is a bronze swivel gun that was modified, or made intentionally as it is shown. Cast bronze swivel guns like this typically won’t be found with a flintlock mechanism (French swivel guns are an exception but the flintlock for those are usually found on the top of the barrel, not on the side). Swivel guns are either muzzle loaded from the front and fired from the rear through a vent hole on the top of the barrel OR loaded with a breech block from the rear that contains both the ammunition/shot along with the gun powder. So... this particular gun doesn’t really fall into any of those categories.

Swivel guns are typically short, around 3 ft long, and made to carry/maneuver more easily around a ship to use on whatever side of the ship it is needed. More of an anti-personnel gun and not to “sink a ship”... more of a repel-the-boarders and close quarters deterrent. It would have been held in a yoke, balanced by the trunnions (the cylindrical protrusions from the side of the barrel) and swiveled side to side and up and down as needed. It could be lifted off the yoke and carried to another area of the gunwale of the ship to be used/fired there to repel or deter anything close. Hence the name given - swivel!

Swivel guns were either made out of cast iron or cast bronze. Bronze was preferred in a ship/salt water setting because bronze is more corrosion resistant than iron for that use, but bronze guns were more expensive than cast iron; I’ve read historical documents that mentioned 7-10 cast iron swivel guns could be manufactured for the cost of *1* cast bronze gun (swivel gun, cannon, etc). So there was a trade-off. Bronze was always preferred but the cost factor had to be considered. NOTE: this is why king’s ships and 1st rate ships of the line usually had bronze cannon on them - they could afford it!

Also, once the technology to cast large amounts of molten metal became more prevalent, the process to do that was still tricky and there are only a few countries/regions that excelled at casting bronze barrels. The Dutch were famous for the quality of their cast bronze guns and sold them to every other country that needed them, so you’ll find Dutch guns on French ships, Portuguese ships, English, Italian and many other countries. One other region known for their cast bronze gun casting was Asia. They had an excellent source of both copper and tin since Asia was trading with everyone back in the day.

So... swivel guns are smaller ordnance, like in the photo... typically used on ships because of the tight quarters for use and maneuverability on ship... cast bronze guns were usually used in a marine/salty environment (ship, fortification building protecting a port or channel, etc). So I would say this firearm was used either on a ship or somewhere on land near the sea.

The two dolphins that are visible on the top are called the lifting lugs/lifting rings/dolphins that you see on much larger, heavier bronze ordnance, used to lift the firearm on a carriage, etc. And it is cast as dolphins because it is more decorated (if you’re paying more money for a firearm it might as well look good, too). Bronze swivel guns, even though they are shorter, were cast as “smaller cannon” and all of the features for a larger bronze gun just stayed over. So anytime you see a bronze gun with dolphins on the top, you can be nearly certain that this was used on a ship (nautical) and a smaller swivel gun with the same features would have been used on a ship, too. So yes, it would be nautical.

It is difficult to tell from the photo if this firearm was made intentionally this way (nautical cast bronze swivel gun paired with a flintlock firing mechanism) or if a nautical bronze swivel gun was modified later with a flintlock. Either way, a flintlock firing mechanism is VERY unusual. So I would say that this firearm was modified a t some point in its use-life: it started out as a swivel gun on a ship or land-based sea fort and then it was modified later with a flintlock firing mechanism. 

It would be interesting to see if there is evidence of a vent hole at the top of the barrel. If yes, then the gun was originally a swivel gun and then it was modified with the flintlock. If no evidence of a vent hole on the top, then the vent will only be a small hole visible on the side of the barrel (for a flintlock) and this forearm was made originally and intentionally as seen on the photo.

As for age, I’m going by when cast bronze nautical swivel guns would have been most in use: 1600s to late 1870s. So, 17th century to late 19th century.

More definitive info (age and country of manufacture, and sometimes weight of gun) can be found with either cast or engraved markings found at the:
1. Rear of the gun called the base ring
2. Top of the barrel 
3. Ends of the trunnions

If markings are part of the casting process, they’ll be easy to see even without conservation. Engraved markings (typically at the base ring and trunnion ends) usually become visible after proper conservation.

Are any markings visible in these areas of this firearm?

Interesting piece of history! A flintlock is very unusual to find on a ship’s swivel gun. If I had to guess, I would say this firearm was cast in Asia in a location that was making lots of bronze swivel guns for ships and was installed with a flintlock firing mechanism for use by someone in a land-based shore fort; the flintlock would make it easier to fire by someone carrying it around and firing it, as opposed to someone firing it while trying to hold it steady on a moving, rocking ship (which is why swivel guns were usually mounted for stability on a yoke on a gunwale, etc). 17th to late 19th century, no way to know for sure unless markings on the barrel are visible and can be identified.

Swivel guns! Fun little firearms. I certainly wouldn’t want to be looking down the barrel of one of those at close quarters with it loaded with a large shot (metal or stone), glass shards or nails... ouch!
 

 

 

EXCELLENT!  Give your sister a hug for this.  

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

6 hours ago, Major Crimes said:

This photo was on the Flintlock site I am a member of and someone had a photo of it being fired by someone Flintlock Era | Facebook

 

This was the consensus and had a photo 

Cannibal Crispy’s “cannobus”. I had the opportunity to fire it a few years ago.

 

Cannibal Crispy’s gun, Florida. One of a kind dog lock made by Campbell Cannon and Carriage.

 

 

 

 

Thank you!  That seems to be a pretty solid identification of this gun.  Now, was it a bit of whimsy on his part?  Or is it a reproduction of an historic gun?

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

I would not want to fire this thing with my eye right above the flashpan!

[Pat Riot]

38 minutes ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

I would not want to fire this thing with my eye right above the flashpan!

I wouldn’t want to “fire” it…shoot it? Yeah, but not fire it. 

 

Actually I’ll bet it would be fun.