Howell Conversion Cylinders for Pietta 58 Remingtons?

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

Even if I could find one I can’t afford an old model Bisley to have sitting in the gun safe or the vehicle unused as a backup for my current Bisleys. What I do have is a pair of Pietta 58’s, so my plan is to buy one, and maybe both, of them a conversion cylinder for its birthday. I read a thread on here recently about conversion cylinders in which someone mentioned that the Howell conversions work fine and are less Yankee dollars than Kirst. Would anyone care to elaborate? The fewer Yankee dollars that I have to part with for cylinders that will more than likely rarely get used the better off I will be...

[Not Dead Ed]

I have a Pietta Remington 58 that I bought from a club member and a Howell conversion cylinder.  It works great.  You’ll want some round nose Hollow base bullets to seal a 357 bullet in a .360 bore.  I found my regular bullets knuckleballed into the target. 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Howell conversion cylinder -- $250 -- https://howellarms.com/product-category/cylinders/1858remington/

Maggie Enns at Howell is a joy to work with!

 

Kirst Konverter -- Ungated -- $323 -- Gated -- $358 -- https://howellarms.com/product-category/cylinders/1858remington/

 

I have both brands for my ROAs -- Both work well -- Gated version requires modification of the gun (I have the ungated Kirst for my ROA)

IMHO, there is no reason to buy gated conversions for ROAs & Remmies, as it is simple to remove the cylinder for loading/unloading.

--Dawg

[Bullett Sass 19707]

Hi Charlie,  I have one of the Howell conversions in 45, If you want to try it you can.  Bullett 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Charlie, are your '58's .44 or .36?  If .44 then it's more convenient since the .44 bore is perfect for 45 Colt.  As Not Dead Ed mentioned, converting a .36 takes more thought and effort on ammo due to the oversize bore for .38 Spcl.  I've seen a lot of folks shooting .45's with a Howell cylinder, but rarely see them shooting .38's.

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

3 hours ago, Not Dead Ed said:

I have a Pietta Remington 58 that I bought from a club member and a Howell conversion cylinder.  It works great.  You’ll want some round nose Hollow base bullets to seal a 357 bullet in a .360 bore.  I found my regular bullets knuckleballed into the target. 

These are .44's so I'll be using Cowboy 45 specials in them

1 hour ago, Bullett Sass 19707 said:

Hi Charlie,  I have one of the Howell conversions in 45, If you want to try it you can.  Bullett 

That would be great, if you wouldn't mind! Thanks!

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

22 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Charlie, are your '58's .44 or .36?  If .44 then it's more convenient since the .44 bore is perfect for 45 Colt.  As Not Dead Ed mentioned, converting a .36 takes more thought and effort on ammo due to the oversize bore for .38 Spcl.  I've seen a lot of folks shooting .45's with a Howell cylinder, but rarely see them shooting .38's.

Oops, sorry. I should have included that part. These 58s are .44. I plan on shooting my Cowboy 45 Specials.

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

3 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Howell conversion cylinder -- $250 -- https://howellarms.com/product-category/cylinders/1858remington/

Maggie Enns at Howell is a joy to work with!

 

Kirst Konverter -- Ungated -- $323 -- Gated -- $358 -- https://howellarms.com/product-category/cylinders/1858remington/

 

I have both brands for my ROAs -- Both work well -- Gated version requires modification of the gun (I have the ungated Kirst for my ROA)

IMHO, there is no reason to buy gated conversions for ROAs & Remmies, as it is simple to remove the cylinder for loading/unloading.

--Dawg

Thanks for the info, Dawg!

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

Howell is great. I built a pair of Ruger Old Army’s with Howell cylinders. One dropped right in but the other needed fitting. I sent them to Howell and they fitted it for no charge. 

[Seldom Seen #16162]

I’m confused about why Howell has both five and six round Conversion cylinders. 
 

I have a Pietta 58 .44 revolver. Can the five round .45 cylinder be fully loaded or do I need a empty chamber under the hammer making it only holding four rounds for matches? 

 

How does Howell get six round cylinders to work? Seems like the chamber walls will be thin and the chambers will not be in a direct line with the barrel.

 

I guess what I am asking is what is the practical use of five round cylinder?

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

17 minutes ago, Seldom Seen #16162 said:

I guess what I am asking is what is the practical use of five round cylinder?

 

When using a 5-round cylinder, you load all 5 and there are  5 Safety Stop notches located between chambers. This feature allows the hammer to be lowered between loaded chambers. So, it is still a 5-shooter.

--Dawg

[Seldom Seen #16162]

So with Howell five round cylinder I can start the stage with it fully loaded and hammer down in safety notch.

 

With the cap and ball cylinder I load and cap five chambers and rest the hammer on empty chamber right?

 

So why six round cylinder?

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

3 hours ago, Seldom Seen #16162 said:

I’m confused about why Howell has both five and six round Conversion cylinders. 

 

Howdy

 

The cylinder of a 44 caliber 1858 Remington is not large enough in diameter for six chambers to be bored without the rims of 45 Colt (or 45 Schofield or 45 CS) overlapping.

 

So many years ago Ken Howell developed a six shot conversion cylinder for 45 Colt that had the chambers angled out ever so slightly towards the rear so six chambers could be bored, and the rims would not overlap.

 

Ken patented his design.

 

None of the other makers of conversion cylinders for the 44 caliber Remington could make a cylinder with six chambers without violating Ken's patent. That is why all the other makers were making 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington with only five chambers, the chambers did not need to be angled.

 

At that time, Ken was selling his cylinders under the brand name R&D, and Taylors was the sole distributor for his cylinders.

 

I bought a R&D six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinder from Talyors many years ago. Here is a photo of it installed in my old EuroArms 44 Remington that I bought way back in 1975.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a photo of the cylinder with my old EuroArms Remington.

 

 

 

 

 

The counterbores for the rims are large enough that the slightly larger diameter rims of 45 Schofield can be seated in the chambers with no problems.

 

 

 

 

 

Note: It does not matter at all that the chambers are angled out ever so slightly towards the rear of the cylinder. The angle is so slight that there is no problem with the bullets entering the forcing cone at a tiny angle.

 

 

At one point Ken sold his patent to Taylors. When he later started up his own company for making conversion cylinders a few years later he could no longer make six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the 44 Remington because he had sold the patent rights Taylors. So Ken had to make five shot 45 Colt cylinders just like everybody else.

 

At some point Ken's patent on his angled design expired. He was now free to start making six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinders again, just as he had been doing all those years ago for Taylors. I suspect the five shot cylinders are still in the catalog because some do not understand the concept behind the angled chambers in the six shot version.

 

Ken is no longer active in the conversion cylinder business that bears his name, it is now run by a delightful young lady named Maggie Enns and her husband. I recently bought a 45 Colt Conversion cylinder from Maggie for a Ruger Old Army and am very pleased with it.

 

Historically, there were several different designs for converting the 1858 Remington to shoot cartridges, but that is a story for another time.

 

I second Prairie Dawg in his choice of the Howell type cylinder for a Remington 1858. To reload you put the hammer at half cock, lower the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, and remove the cylinder, exactly as in the photo above. No need for a loading gate, no need to alter the frame of the revolver. If you want to go back to shooting Cap & Ball you just pop the Cap & Ball cylinder in and you are ready to go C&B.

 

Here is where it gets a little bit tricky. My old R&D cylinder has slots cut into the cylinder cap so the hammer can be lowered between chambers for loading all six chambers. Frankly, I have never used them because the nose of the hammer on my old EuroArms Remington is a little bit too fat to slip into the slots. I have never bothered to narrow the hammer nose, for SASS I just load five cartridges and lower the hammer on an empty chamber. Completely SASS legal.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is an image of the current six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinder that the current Howell company is selling, It appears they have done away with the grooves on the cylinder cap, instead relying on a slot on the side of the cylinder to pop the bolt into for loading six shots. It appears there is only one such slot, not one cut between each chamber. But for us in SASS, all you have to do is leave one chamber empty and lower the hammer on the empty chamber, you do not need to use the extra slot.

 

 

Anyway, that is everything I know about six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington. I would not spend the extra money on the fluted version, the version without flutes is less expensive and has served me well for many years.

 

By the way, I only shoot Black Powder 45 Schofield ammo through my old Remington. The grip design of the Remington is different enough from a Colt that there is less space between the rear of the trigger guard and the knuckle of the index finger. Shooting less powerful Black Powder 45 Schofield ammo reduces recoil and reduces the chance of my knuckle getting whacked by the rear of the trigger guard. This should be no problem with light SASS 45 CS loads.

 

 

 

 

P.S. Be sure you order a conversion cylinder for 45 Colt. Not 44 Colt. For a while there were some six shot 44 Colt cylinders available, but the rifling groove diameter was not correct for 44 Colt. The rifling groove diameter of the 1858 Remington is perfect for modern 45 Colt (or 45 Schofield, or 45 CS) ammunition. It's a long story that I will explain some other time.

[watab kid]

i have one in my 58 and it works great , i have no complaints , i agree with not spending extra for the flutes as they really dont enhance the experience just change the look of a revolver that looks just fine without , 

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Thank to all of you for your replies.

 

I am only interested in the Howell conversion as I want to be able to use the cap and ball cylinders. I assume that only blackpowder and light smokeless powder loads should be used due to the thin chamber wall by the locking notches. How light of smokeless loads are best?

 

Going slightly off topic what kind of velocity do we get with blackpowder out of that long 7 1/2” barrel? I don’t have a chronograph to measure velocities out of my gun. B/P sure is fun though.

 

p.s. The hammer nose on my Pietta also does not fit in the safety notches of my c-n-b cylinders. I never think about using them but it would be convenient for self-defense if going into the badlands. 

[Turkey Flats Jack]

9 hours ago, Seldom Seen #16162 said:

Thank to all of you for your replies.

 

I am only interested in the Howell conversion as I want to be able to use the cap and ball cylinders. I assume that only blackpowder and light smokeless powder loads should be used due to the thin chamber wall by the locking notches. How light of smokeless loads are best?

 

Going slightly off topic what kind of velocity do we get with blackpowder out of that long 7 1/2” barrel? I don’t have a chronograph to measure velocities out of my gun. B/P sure is fun though.

 

p.s. The hammer nose on my Pietta also does not fit in the safety notches of my c-n-b cylinders. I never think about using them but it would be convenient for self-defense if going into the badlands. 

The cylinders are rated for current Sammi specs but I wouldn't run hunting ammo or self defense rounds just to err on the side of caution stick to cowboy action velocity ammo. 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

The standard information you will get about these conversion cylinders is that "Cowboy Ammo" is OK to use in them.

 

Which is useless because there are no SAAMI standards for "Cowboy Ammo".

 

They will also say to limit velocity to not exceed 800 fps, which is also useless information because 800 fps can be achieved at different pressure levels with different powders.

 

When I talked to Maggie Enns at Howell recently she told me to not exceed 12,000 PSI in one of these cylinders. Which is NOT the same as the SAAMI Maximum pressure for 45 Colt, which is 14,000 PSI.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Thank you.

 

Even the advice not to exceed 12,000 psi is useless as I don’t have anyway to measure pressure. Black powder definitely sounds like the safest to use.

 

Anybody chronographed black powder from 7 1/2”’barrel?

[Dark Horse Charlie]

I have used the Howells cylinder on my 5.5 pietta and works fine. No adjustments needed. I typically use 45 Schofield when I shoot it.

The only issue I have had was that the first time I used it the loading lever stud broke free. I tried 2 ton epoxy to put a new one, but that nroke off too. So now I took the lever off and use the spring lock on Howells website. I like the lever look better, but it works fine.