Buckshot Bob Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 And how long does the barrel last? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Not watching the video, but this sounds like truthful BS sensationalism to get views. 1:3 twist - 1 revolution in 3 inches 185 grain bullet traveling 2200 fps So in 1 minute as in 500,000 RPMs a 185 grain .338” bullet would travel 132,000 feet which is 25 miles to match that headline. Reminds me of the leftist sensationalist bull sh** about Black Talon cartridges years ago. The Left doesn’t need to do anything to get fodder to feed their anti-gun fires. They just need pro gun morons like this guy touting the latest wonder cartridge. Idiot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 23 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: And how long does the barrel last? I would think longer than a varmint rifle, I haven’t read anything about it being extremely high pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 23 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: Not watching the video, but this sounds like truthful BS sensationalism to get views. 1:3 twist - 1 revolution in 3 inches 185 grain bullet traveling 2200 fps So in 1 minute as in 500,000 RPMs a 185 grain .338” bullet would travel 132,000 feet which is 25 miles to match that headline. Reminds me of the leftist sensationalist bull sh** about Black Talon cartridges years ago. The Left doesn’t need to do anything to get fodder to feed their anti-gun fires. They just need pro gun morons like this guy touting the latest wonder cartridge. Idiot! Just a different approach. Sure seems effective. And why worry about the anti gun people they already want to take away what was designed a 100 years ago ? I’ve had numerous people comment to me that they feel the newer cartridges like the creedmore’s and PRC’s are more effective than their predecessors in a given bore diameter because of the increased twist rate. Seems like the same principle as the Lehigh handgun ammo . Bill Wilson believes in it so much he bought the company. https://lehighdefense.com/our-technologies/xtreme-defense.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 Ron does a good job of explaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 59 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: 1:3 twist - 1 revolution in 3 inches 185 grain bullet traveling 2200 fps So in 1 minute as in 500,000 RPMs a 185 grain .338” bullet would travel 132,000 feet which is 25 miles to match that headline I was figuring it going the other way. Let's use a fast cartridge. 220 Swift. 4,000 ft per second. That's 240,000 ft per minute. So if you give it a fast twist - one in five? - you're easily doing 500,000 RPMs. One and six would be 480,000, so one and five will easily top out 500. Like the Black talon that was mentioned. They made a big thing about how fast that bullet was spinning - bzzzzzzz. And it is spinning fast. It's also traveling forward. A Smith & Wesson 357 has a 1 in 14 twist. One complete revolution in 14 inches of forward travel. How far is it from the breastbone to the center of the torso - 6 inches? 7 inches? So for the bullet to go from the outer dermis to the center of mass, it makes one half of one revolution. I don't think that's going to do a whole lot of buzzsawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Sorry guys.....for me it's not for hunting. Looks to me like on a deer or elk sized animal, hitting a bone would be like using an RPG....nothing but ground bone & meat left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 2 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said: I would think longer than a varmint rifle, I haven’t read anything about it being extremely high pressure. Don't bet on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Regardless of all the buzz and hoopla. I will stick with what works for me. A phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. In black with walnut furniture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 1 turn in 3 inches = 4 turns in one foot. 2200 f/s = 132,000 feet per minute 4 turns per foot x 132,000 feet/minute = 528,000 revolutions per minute. Interesting, but irrelevant in any application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still hand Bill Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Still less energy when subsonic that a 45-70 with 500g at all ranges. It’s interesting that it was originally sub sonic, but most of the loads discussed are sonic. Maker bullets did a analysis at subsonic speeds on how much energy was added by the faster twist. It is a little bit, but not significantly more energy, 40-50ftlbs. Most bullets have about 10 ftlbs of energy from rotation, the 8.6 was 40+. Imho it’s mostly marketing BS based on a minor increase in energy. Have to find some way to sell new rounds. the new Hornady cartridges, 6 arc, 6.5 cm, 6.5 prc, 7 prc, 300prc all have faster twists than traditional cartridges of similar performance due to bullet construction changing over time. Just not crazy like the 8.6. They also have the shoulders moved back to load longer bullets in existing magazines due to people shooting longer high bc bullets. The chambers are tighter as well. Hornady is doing podcasts on these cartridges and talking about why they were developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still hand Bill Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 6 hours ago, Alpo said: I was figuring it going the other way. Let's use a fast cartridge. 220 Swift. 4,000 ft per second. That's 240,000 ft per minute. So if you give it a fast twist - one in five? - you're easily doing 500,000 RPMs. One and six would be 480,000, so one and five will easily top out 500. Like the Black talon that was mentioned. They made a big thing about how fast that bullet was spinning - bzzzzzzz. And it is spinning fast. It's also traveling forward. A Smith & Wesson 357 has a 1 in 14 twist. One complete revolution in 14 inches of forward travel. How far is it from the breastbone to the center of the torso - 6 inches? 7 inches? So for the bullet to go from the outer dermis to the center of mass, it makes one half of one revolution. I don't think that's going to do a whole lot of buzzsawing. You are missing that twist doesn’t stay the same after leaving the barrel. The bullets slow down, yet rpm may not as the two are no longer mechanically locked together. Thus the 1:14 that happened in the barrel is no longer 1:14. You would have to compare rotations per second and feet per second of travel to figure out many rotations in how many feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 I’ll pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 22 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said: At the end of the day, all this is a bunch of hooey except to internet keyboard warriors and true disciples and practitioners of long range shooting. I’ll stick to my 308 and 30-06 based cartridges (plus a few others) and won’t begrudge anyone else’s decision. At the end of the day a boiler room hit or nervous system hit doesn’t care about paper ballistics. Ron Spomer generally always comes around to that, especially if you read down to his responses to readers comments on his online articles in I think it’s Outdoor Life magazine. He once stated, and I am paraphrasing, the real advantage of “modern” cartridges only comes into play past 400 yards as most old cartridges shoot plenty flat enough and are still within their effective range- especially with the improvements in projectiles and propellants. Modern day ballistic and bullet advancements are made to do the same thing modern archery has done vs so-called traditional/primitive archery - get into the heads of the consumer (for better or for worse) and eliminate the real and perceived variables the shooter themselves may introduce into the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 This is nothing new. There have been cartridge and firearm marketing games for more years than I can count. Fine and effective firearm / cartridge combinations survive. The rest become the focus of historians and dilletantes. BTW, there are a few of the less popular ones that I still enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 8 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said: Any round PROPERLY PLACED at a reasonable distance for the cartridge will "destroy" a human target, even the lowly .22 short. A well deployed arrow, dart, rock, or cutting weapon will, too. The term is meaningless unless you want to blast him to pieces or vaporize him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Still hand Bill said: the new Hornady cartridges, 6 arc, 6.5 cm, 6.5 prc, 7 prc, 300prc all have faster twists than traditional cartridges of similar performance due to bullet construction changing over time. Just not crazy like the 8.6. They also have the shoulders moved back to load longer bullets in existing magazines due to people shooting longer high bc bullets. The chambers are tighter as well. Hornady is doing podcasts on these cartridges and talking about why they were developed. The hornady podcasts have been pretty interesting. One of the biggest advantages to me of the new cartridges is the wind drift of the high bc bullets. With range finders today distance estimates are easy, it’s the wind that’s hard to predict. The tighter specs are nice for people who don’t reload. I honestly like the trend to higher bc bullets, and more efficient cartridges. I haven’t owned a magnum rifle in the last 25 years and haven’t missed them one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Another one of those campaigns to "sell" something ostensibly "New and Exciting." Not necessarily needed for anything practical, but let's find a market for it anyway. Ummmm ..... Hogwash?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Thought this was gonna be about Bruce Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Damned Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I’ve got a Faxon Hunter in 8.6blk (16” bolt gun) and have been playing with it a few months now. Designed for subs and shoots Berger 300’s and Maker 350’s quite well, though trajectory is very much like a rainbow, so knowing your dope is key. I’m not sold on the 1:3 twist as being necessary, despite the claims of rotational energy transfer; I did vaporize a Speer 225gr bullet when I was pushing supersonic speeds but have since switched to solids (Makers) with no ill effects, though I’ve kept these right at 2000fps. Haven’t had any issues since. Plan is to take this out for elk this fall. Suppressed hunting at its finest! Seems most folks commenting one way or the other on the nets do so from the perspective of having watched a YouTube video or reading others comments (who’ve likely done the same). End of day, it’s a cartridge designed for a specific purpose and it does that thing quite well. Playing with the round has been fun for me. Will it hit mainstream like the 300blk did? Not sure. I did see dies for it down at Scheels the other day, but the lack of commercial ammunition and the requirements for solid bullets for supersonic loading are likely going to be an issue. Wouldn’t be surprised to see this come out with a slower twist rate (1:6?) in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Damned Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 only a slight difference between a 1:3 and a 1:9 twist again, concept with the cartridge is you can achieve expansion with heavy-for-caliber bullets at subsonic speeds, and then turn around and shoot supersonics as well. The closest relative (338 Federal) can do the latter, but due to twist rate, won’t stabilize the heavies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 I think twist rate makes a difference. Many years ago I and a couple of friends were hunting jack rabbit’s in the high desert in northern Ca . A friend of mine had just got a Sig 551, it was the first 556 I had ever shot with a 1/7 twist. I remember looking down the barrel and thinking that looks like threads not rifling. I was shooting a AR with a 1/12 or 1/14 twist and we were both shooting military 55gr fmj. The terminal effect of the 1/7 on the jack rabbits was much more impressive. When we would go out we would typically shoot 50 to 100 rabbits and the 1/7 was constantly a better performer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 55 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said: I think twist rate makes a difference. Many years ago I and a couple of friends were hunting jack rabbit’s in the high desert in northern Ca . A friend of mine had just got a Sig 551, it was the first 556 I had ever shot with a 1/7 twist. I remember looking down the barrel and thinking that looks like threads not rifling. I was shooting a AR with a 1/12 or 1/14 twist and we were both shooting military 55gr fmj. The terminal effect of the 1/7 on the jack rabbits was much more impressive. When we would go out we would typically shoot 50 to 100 rabbits and the 1/7 was constantly a better performer. Was there any significant difference in how dead one rabbit was over another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said: Was there any significant difference in how dead one rabbit was over another? More chunks flew off of the 1/7 rabbits than with the slower twist rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Damned Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Not twist rate related, but when I lived in Colorado I used to shoot a lot of prairie dogs. Started out with the typical Federal 55gr FMJ. When I switched to the 40gr VMAX, I was surprised at the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 I’ve used some of the Barnes varmint grenades in a 22-250 and they live up to their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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