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Mandatory evacuations


Rye Miles #13621

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You may have heard this story about the train derailment in eastern Ohio near PA. Supposedly toxic chemicals were on that train and there was an explosion and a fire. My question is about MANDATORY EVACUATIONS FROM YOUR HOME. What if you refuse to leave? Do they haul you out in handcuffs? (BTW now they're saying the chemicals released in the air have no long term effects or danger to cancer etc. How can they MAKE you leave your own home??

 

Story below:

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-train-derailment-residents-forced-evacuate-allowed-return/story?id=96941403

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I think it depends on the jurisdiction or locality. 
 

My advice?  Go. There are some nasty nasty chemicals hauled via rail. 
 

If money is a concern I am pretty sure one could get reimbursed by the railroad eventually. 
Your life and health aren’t worth the layout of a couple of nights cost for a hotel. 

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1 minute ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I think it depends on the jurisdiction or locality. 
 

My advice?  Go. There are some nasty nasty chemicals hauled via rail. 
 

If money is a concern I am pretty sure one could get reimbursed by the railroad eventually. 
Your life and health aren’t worth the layout of a couple of nights cost for a hotel. 

Yea I get that but my question is what will they do if you REFUSE to leave your home? Can they actually drag you out??:o

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8 minutes ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said:

Maybe the reason they tell you to go is so you won't be able to sue if you stay? Still, I agree with Pat Riot, what reason could you have to refuse to go? 

 

5 minutes ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said:

Should be same as for a hurricane, if you don't leave then you might not be able to get rescued later. 

I also agree with Pat also but I'm curious as to what happens if you refuse to leave? Can they drag you out of your home? I'm thinking they can't!

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1 minute ago, Pulp, SASS#28319 said:

Remember the guy who refused to leave when Mt St Helen’s was about to blow?  They didn’t drag him out.  

No I do not remember, what happened??

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I really do not know. I don’t think they can actually make you go, but they may wash their hands of you and you’d be on your own. 
 

When I lived in Elk Grove, CA my house was about 1/4 mile from a RR grade crossing. One day a customer service rep from UP railroad knocked on my door as I had apparently checked a box on a disclosure form when I bought my house. He was there to tell me how emergency procedures were handled if there were a major accident at that crossing. He did tell me that there were deadly hazardous chemicals transported across that crossing often. 
I recall he said that if there were an evacuation called there would be announcements in the media, calls made from a call center and door to door notifications. I really don’t recall him outlining any scenarios regarding what “they” would do if someone refused to leave. 
I asked what chemicals were transported across the tracks. He couldn’t tell me as he didn’t know details. 
I have a book called the Hazmat Emergency Response Guidebook. It tells you by placard number what a chemical is in a tank car or truck and what the hazards are. 
I sat at the crossing one day waiting for a train to pass and jotted down some placard numbers. There were definitely some nasty chemicals aboard that train. I don’t recall details, but I told my wife if UP or the police came knocking we were beatin’ feet. 


Example of the guidebook I mentioned. 

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/training/hazmat/erg/emergency-response-guidebook-erg

 

Placard examples:

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2020-07/USDOT Chart 16 PHH50 0162 1117 WEB.pdf
 

http://www.mcor-nmra.org/Publications/Articles/Reading Hazardous Materials Placards.pdf
 

 

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There are some bodycam videos on Youtube from the Tubbs, Kincade, and Glass fires here in Sonoma County of deputies going around knocking on doors giving evacuation orders with smoke and embers blowing all around them.  A few people said they were staying, deputies wasted a couple of minutes trying to reason with them and ended up telling the people that they were on their own.
I think part of the mandatory evacuation is so that police and fire are not put in danger trying to save someone who decided two seconds past the last second that they needed to get out, but were now trapped because they were stupid 20 minutes earlier.

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I have that book also from my training many moons ago.

The only issue I would have with leaving is that the cockroaches come out around us from the projects at night. Robbery would be an issue. I would stay but send my family if it wasn't catching my house on fire. I live in a nice area, but the Feds say you need to let the roaches have affordable housing in nice areas. Makes not so nice areas in a hurry. 

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5 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

I think part of the mandatory evacuation is so that police and fire are not put in danger trying to save someone who decided two seconds past the last second that they needed to get out, but were now trapped because they were stupid 20 minutes earlier.

That’s pretty much my understanding of it, too. 
 

Every ‘mandatory evac’ I’ve heard of includes the, ‘no emergency response — you’re on your own’ caveat. 
 

I also wonder about life insurance indemnity in that situation. If you refused a mandatory evac order and died as a consequence, could a life insurance company refuse to pay?

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

You may have heard this story about the train derailment in eastern Ohio near PA. Supposedly toxic chemicals were on that train and there was an explosion and a fire. My question is about MANDATORY EVACUATIONS FROM YOUR HOME. What if you refuse to leave? Do they haul you out in handcuffs? (BTW now they're saying the chemicals released in the air have no long term effects or danger to cancer etc. How can they MAKE you leave your own home??

 

Story below:

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-train-derailment-residents-forced-evacuate-allowed-return/story?id=96941403

You probably can not be forced to leave

 

However if you refuse to leave and are injured the likelihood of you successfully suing the railroad or town go down drastically.  It MAY also impact your health and/or home insurance resulting in higher rates or PERHAPS cancellation of your policy.

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49 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

No I do not remember, what happened??

He was found D.R.T. 

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Out here they can make you leave if you have children, or take the kids to a shelter.  If adults refuse to evacuate, they ask who your dentist is and record the info so they can I.D. the body.  I know several folks who have stayed and saved their houses from wildfire.

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The article qoutes the govenor stating something about shelter in place so that seems to be the directive if you do not evacuate.  However I am sure they blocked off the area and did not let people into it after the evacuation orders were given.

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7 minutes ago, Pulp, SASS#28319 said:

He died.  He lived all his life on some lake near the volcano, said he’d die there.  He was right.

 

google Harry R Truman.

I respect his decision. 

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Yea I get that but my question is what will they do if you REFUSE to leave your home? Can they actually drag you out??:o

 

Sometime back I asked the County Sheriff about this.  By what legal authority can the county order a "Manatory Evacuation"?  Sheriff said they had no legal authority.  He also said his officer's would not be risking their lives to save you if you made a bad choice to stay home. 

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Ordered evacuations are usually for resident safety, but not always. Sometimes they need to clear roads or other  areas needed for fire or other emergency response logistics.  At others, they know residents are unable to anticipate the magnitude of expected events like floods or storms.  Driving and navigating  a fire engine at night through thick smoke is difficult enough without having congested traffic to deal with-- other panicking drivers in unexpected places and doing obtuse things.

 

Laws do exist in most states that enable an arrest if a person takes action that threaten life and safety.  But I  don't think most jurisdictions will arrest you or force you to leave. But they also arent going to interrupt their overall emergency logistics to save you if you choose to stay against direction.  Don't bother calling 911 to rescue your family if you end up in a pickle. 

 

I was once evacuated for an Anhydrous Ammonia tank fracture  at a nearby freezer plant.  Being downwind, we were ordered to leave within ten minutes by a prescribed route.  All of our livestock animals were dead when we returned hours later. Escaped gasses pose a very real risk.  As individuals, we don't have as much information to make evac decisions as emergency responders have.  Follow their guidance.  

  

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2 hours ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

The article qoutes the govenor stating something about shelter in place so that seems to be the directive if you do not evacuate.  However I am sure they blocked off the area and did not let people into it after the evacuation orders were given.

 

2 hours ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

The article qoutes the govenor stating something about shelter in place so that seems to be the directive if you do not evacuate.  However I am sure they blocked off the area and did not let people into it after the evacuation orders were given.

That was the PA Governor that advised people within a certain radius to shelter at home. Our Ohio governor is the one that issued “ Mandatory Evacuations “ because the accident was actually in Ohio not PA. 

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Assuming you get an evacuation order, it would be wise to heed it. About 8 years ago, Gatlinburg burned. The video (below) is from a couple guys that did make it out. Please excuse the language, it is seriously NSFW!

 

When my mountain caught fire a year ago, I just grabbed my  lady and down the mountain we went. We did not wait, we only had some smoke issues going down. We were not able to return for quite some days. When we did return, we saw the fire burned right to my property lines ending only where I spent a bunch of money clearing trees and brush after the Gatlinburg fires. It seems I gave the fire crews a defensible space.

 

Anyway, this video is from people who did make it out of the first fire and I took it as a serious warning:

 

 

If told to get out, do so. If not told to get out but it seems wise, get out! While you can.

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27 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Ordered evacuations are usually for resident safety, but not always. Sometimes they need to clear roads or other  areas needed for fire or other emergency response logistics. 

 

This.  During the Tubbs Fire in 2017 Highway 12 in Santa Rosa was a charlie foxtrot, too many people trying to leave all at once.  In 2018 during the fire season PG&E kept doing Planned Public Safety Power Outages "out of an abundance of caution" cutting off power to thousands we winds got above about 15 mph.  Which caused a lot of public outrage.  Power would be off between a couple of hours and a couple of days.  Several times.  

Two years later in 2019 during the Kincade Fire the authorities tried to evacuate the entire county "out of an abundance of caution" which caused almost as many issues, and again PG&E was doing the PPSP.  Irritating.  "OH!  We do it because the fires are so unpredictable!  And we need to clear people out so we have clear access for emergency vehicles."  They were evacuating people who were 15 miles from the fire and upwind of it.  OK, I sort of get it, the Tubbs fire moved 15 miles in less than two hours.  But it moved downwind.

Comes to 2020, Glass Fire.  We go the special siren for mandatory evacuation as well as the reverse 911 calls.  From our corner of Santa Rosa police were directing people along Montecito Blvd and Fountaingrove to Highway 101, and blocking off the feeders to Highway 12 to keep all of its lanes open for fire and other emergency vehicles.  That worked out very well. 

2021 and 2022 were relatively quiet.  PG&E changed its protocols so we weren't getting alerts every other day.

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I live near three large anhydrous ammonia tanks. Think the large ones hooked up to a pipeline. If they called an evacuation order here because of a leak or rupture...you can bet I would get going. If I remember correctly...no wind...the KILL range is a five mile radius...with wind...who knows

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2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

.. PG&E kept doing Planned Public Safety Power Outages "out of an abundance of caution" cutting off power to thousands we winds got above about 15 mph.  ...

 

Wasn't it the PG&E that was accused and then sued when a wind storm caused arcing and a major fire?  PG&E then started protocols to prevent another fire related law suit by preventively cutting power?

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1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

 

Wasn't it the PG&E that was accused and then sued when a wind storm caused arcing and a major fire?  PG&E then started protocols to prevent another fire related law suit by preventively cutting power?

 

Yep. After decades of being sued and blocked from cutting back trees and brush over and under the transmission lines there was a sudden hue and cry for PG&E to Do Something!!! about it. And do it instantly.  So naturally PG&E overreacted and started cutting power during any windy and dry conditions.  

Then, while the Glass Fire (I think it was that one) was still raging, idiots somewhere around Placerville were sitting in trees to prevent PG&E from doing the trimming and tree removal that was necessary and, in fact, mandated by the State of California. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

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When an officer we had a train hit a tractor trailer that didn’t make it across.  There were several chemical tank cars and a fire.  I went house to house but some said they’d stay and my chief said once I told Them to leave it was up to them.  It was more precautionary than immediate danger since the fire hadn’t made it to the chemical tank cars.  

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10 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said:

Maybe the reason they tell you to go is so you won't be able to sue if you stay? Still, I agree with Pat Riot, what reason could you have to refuse to go? 

Medical reasons, maybe they have equipment and are unable to move it.  Maybe they are paralyzed and require specialized home modifications that hotels don’t offer.  Possibly they are no longer all there in the head and can’t handle the change.  

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