Adventures in 38-55

[Johnny Knight]

Getting to know a Winchester 1885 high wall in 38-55.  It's a traditions model originally mounted with the marbles sight, but I've replaced that with a lee shaver mid range soule sight.

Trying to settle on a load for it, so ordered up some epoxy coated 245 gn from Missouri bullet company. I loaded up some smokeless rounds and some black powder for comparison.  The black powder rounds were much more pleasant to shoot, so I wanted to come up with a load for shooting black.  The problem I discovered is that when I loaded up 46 gn of Goex 2f behind the epoxy coated bullet, it left an impressive amount of crap in the barrel that effectively turned the gun into a not very smooth bore musket.  Accuracy was totally gone.  It took a good bit of scrubbing to get all the crap out of the barrel to where I could see lands and grooves again.

So, time to find a bullet with sufficient lube grooves to hold enough proper black powder lube so I can start dialing in the gun.

I'm hoping for something that will be consistent out to at least 300 yards, since I figure anything past that and the limiting factor will be me, not the gun.

So, any suggestions for particular bullets that are currently available would be appreciated.  I'm getting set up to pour my own, so if there are particular molds you've had good luck with, that would also be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Johnny

[Michigan Slim]

Well, welcome to the Journey!

There is a very good writeup on the Starline site about brass. It can make a surprising difference. Articles | Rifle, Handgun, and Pistol Brass (starlinebrass.com)

Then there is bore size. Your bore may be actually larger than your chamber. They range from about .375 to .380. Depends on the manufacturer. 

Then, since you are shooting black, you need to try a softer bullet as well as BP lube. Lower pressures involved so softer is better.

I cast the good old tried and true Lee 250 grain boolit. Listed as a 0.279 but mine drops at .380. Perfect as sized for my daughters H&R. Works fairly well in my Winchester 94. I use it to hunt with. 

Wish Johnboy was still here with us. Somewhere is a ton of info he put out at one time. Maybe someone knows where that is.

 

[Buckshot Sheridan]

I’d take a look here. Just pick your weight. Notes are provided below some of them to point you in the right direction. The guy is also pretty fast at delivering. Had o e from him 3 days after ordering, and it wasn’t a regular catalog item. 
 

https://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=12#catalog-anchor

[Michigan Slim]

And if you have any Unique, it's your best friend. Most accurate loads we make.

[Johnny Knight]

Thanks all,

I know I need to slug the bore to get a more specific starting point on picking a mold.  I'm looking for something on the heavier end for a bit more knockdown if I spend some time on a BPCR range.  I've been going through the accurate mold catalog a few times now.  My understanding is look for the largest lube grooves in the weight your interested in, but obviously there are plenty of options, i.e. more groves of shallower dimension, vs fewer, larger grooves.  Not sure the pro's or con's of one over the other.  I've read up on the Starline article before, and it seems to dovetail with the opinion that setting your bullet length to just engage the rifling is the way to get consistency, so ideally a chamber cast is one step better than  slugging the bore.  I have yet to do either, so I guess it's time to learn how...

 

Looking at something like the 38-350R, which seems like the big lube version of this round.  https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-350R

Not sure how that compares to the 38-345A which has a bit more of a taper to theoretically cut down on wind resistance, or the 38-337L which seems to be the most popular of the heavier bullets based on the number of molds sold.  Lots of choices......

 

Johnny

[Long Fingers, SASS#56813]

I have limited experience with long range but played a little with the 38-55 
I tried some Desperado bullets 260 grain  at .380.  Very soft alloy, claims softer shooting and ideal for BP?? 
I loaded them over smokeless H4198, worked very well though my Marlin out to a 300yrd 
Might be worth a look? 
LF. 

[Michigan Slim]

Try that 260. It might just do the trick. 

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

Big Lube Bullets + BP = problem solved!

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

SIR 

 

  38-55 is all over the place as to dia. 

1 slug the bore 

2 make a chamber cast

now that you know , what you are working with it becomes easier

 

 20.2 gns of Acc 5744  did a fine job for me

 

  Chickasaw .

[Johnny Knight]

I've seen a number of recommendations for smokeless, trying to see what I can come up with for black powder.  My understanding is that unless a bullet specifically indicates that it was lubed for black powder, then the assumption is that that it was lubed for smokeless which won't play with the black powder? 

Johnny

[Old Man Graybeard]

I am using 335 grain bullets sized .377. Seems to do well

[Sedalia Dave]

Accurate will customize any of their designs free of charge. You can narrow up the driving bands, make the lube grooves deeper, and change the diameter.

 

The 38-285IL will get you started.

[Johnny Knight]

Thanks all for the suggestions, seems the problem is too many choices!

I've ordered up the chamber casting kit to try to get a handle on at least one of the variables....

On the black powder, seems Swiss 3F is what most folks are preferring.  I've also seen a good bit of discussion on using large pistol primers for this particular cartridge.  Any one try the different primers?

Johnny

[Michigan Slim]

36 minutes ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks all for the suggestions, seems the problem is too many choices!

I've ordered up the chamber casting kit to try to get a handle on at least one of the variables....

On the black powder, seems Swiss 3F is what most folks are preferring.  I've also seen a good bit of discussion on using large pistol primers for this particular cartridge.  Any one try the different primers?

Johnny

Never used anything but LR. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Well, actually no, I haven't tried pistol primers.  Haven't seen a need.  I have been shooting a 38-55 H&R Handi Rifle.  I started out shooting 90Gr EPP UG .36 pistol bullets (really, seriously, I did).  But they tended to wander all over past 75 yards.  I've no settled on 275Gr bullets, I don't know by who (special deal on 700 of em.  Lube doesn't matter as I load with 3F APP.  Just for grins and giggles, you might want to try APP.  Easy to load.  Easy to clean up. Lube doesn't matter.  BP Lube is OK, Smokeless Lube is OK, NO Lube is OK.  Lube simply doesn't matter.  APP is yer friend.  Just fill the case to the base of the bullet and GO!!  No muss, Fo Fuss.  Seriously, give it a try!!  Just ask Scarlett!!

[Michigan Slim]

For BP I use Goex ffG, a felt pad, then a dab of Lyman patch lube. Seat the bullet for slight compression. The lube squeezed up the sides of the bullet and I wiped off what came out. Shoots like a champ. I load .45-70 the same way. Swiss fffG should shoot just dandy also.

And, as above, I like APP also.

[Johnny Knight]

Familiar with APP, just loaded up another 100 rounds of 44-40 with it for the pistols this evening.  I'll make some 38-55 rounds up with the APP for comparison, just trying to see the differences with all the options out there.

Johnny

[Jackass Jim]

I am using a Accurate 38-265D mould. It is a gas checked mould I use for everything. Using it for plainsman now with 30 grains FFFG APP, a fiber wad and enough filler to give me a slight compression. That is great out to 300 yards for steal targets, might be a little light for a hunting load. That is where the gas check shines! Can be pushed pretty hard with smokeless powder.

 

JJ

[Equanimous Phil]

Howdy Johnny

 

Unfortunately, I haven't had many occasions to shoot my 38-55 sharps since I've started reloading for it, so no great practical experience from my side. But maybe you'll find some helpful information in the thread I started when I began to reload 38-55.

 

12 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

I'm looking for something on the heavier end for a bit more knockdown if I spend some time on a BPCR range.

What's your barrel's twist rate? Please make sure the bullet weight and length still works with your rifle. That's why I didn't dare to go heavier than Accurate's 38-320ET and 38-331B molds with a 1 in 16" twist rate.

 

Beside the various diameters in 38-55, chosing the right brass length is another topic to consider, 2.080 vs. 2.125.

 

Happy Trails!

Phil

 

[Kid Rich]

11 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks all for the suggestions, seems the problem is too many choices!

I've ordered up the chamber casting kit to try to get a handle on at least one of the variables....

On the black powder, seems Swiss 3F is what most folks are preferring.  I've also seen a good bit of discussion on using large pistol primers for this particular cartridge.  Any one try the different primers?

Johnny

I use a BACO mold for Shirttails 38-55, I also shoot that same bullet unsized in my 38-56. The bore on her rifle slugs at .375 and the 38-56 slugs at .380+. The mold drops a bullet at .3795 and shoots under 3" groups at 200 yds with a peep site with both rifles. Her highwall shoots the same size groups with 4198 or BP. We do not size the bullets for either rifle and do not have any leading problems. PM me if you want particulars on load.

kR

[Johnny Knight]

Twist rate on the barrel is 1 in 15" per Winchester's specs

[Equanimous Phil]

I tried some online calculators for twist rate, but somehow I do not manage to get any useful results...

 

My decision for bullet weight was based on @Hoss's experience with his 38-55 High Wall (from the thread linked above):

"Heaviest Bullet I can shoot in it is 310 grn. 1/18 twist. Yours should go a tad heavier. I have some 345 grn bullets but they would not stabilize."

[Johnny Knight]

From the bit I've been able to sort through on reading up on twist rates, if I'm understanding it correctly, with the 1 in 15" I should be able to go up to the 345.  At the moment, my leading contender is the Accurate 38-337L,  seems there were a few folks on some of the BPCR forums that were happy with it.  Still waiting on the cerrosafe to get in to do the chamber cast and bore slugging before making any final decisions.

Johnny

[Sedalia Dave]

3 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I tried some online calculators for twist rate, but somehow I do not manage to get any useful results...

 

My decision for bullet weight was based on @Hoss's experience with his 38-55 High Wall (from the thread linked above):

"Heaviest Bullet I can shoot in it is 310 grn. 1/18 twist. Yours should go a tad heavier. I have some 345 grn bullets but they would not stabilize."

 

Calculating the twist rate needed for a given bullet is not that simple. There is a lot of complicated math. To simplify it people tend to make assumptions that causes a lot of online calculators to be less than accurate when your bullet design does not conform to their assumptions.

From my research I have found that the online calculators are geared towards bullet designs that are copper jacketed and optimized for muzzle velocities above Mach 2. While the bullets we shoot are designed significantly slower velocities. As a general rule stability and therefore accuracy suffers when a bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic velocities because of the rapid changes in how the air flows around a given bullet design. This almost always causes a given bullet to become unstable. One of the reasons the cartridges chosen for BPCR are so accurate at extremely long distances is that the bullets are traveling at subsonic speeds. The greatest limiting factor in how far a modern cartridge can shoot accurately is how far the bullet can travel before it becomes subsonic.

 

There is some good information in the link below. Some of it is rather technical but not all of it. 

 

https://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/bibliography/bibliography.shtml

 

One thing to note is that many online calculators use the Miller Twist Rate Formula.

Quote

Important Note: The Miller Twist Rate Formula isn’t accurate with flat based bullets, so we recommend you view our flat based bullet twist rate chart to identify what the minimum twist rate is for all of our flat based bullets.

 

[Mad Dane, SASS#5536]

I use a Chey Cast .380 335gr Snover bullet over 39gr of 2fg Swiss-hit a 12x18 inch target at 600yds Sunday-very accurate load.

[Lucky R. K.]

If this works, I have attached an Excell worksheet containing the formula for calculating all the elements of the bullet twist chart. Twist, bullet diameter, bullet length, and muzzle velocity. You enter three of the elements and the program will calculate the fourth. Be careful not to change the formulas. Just enter three of the four elements to get the fourth.

This is an excellent tool to determine a bullet will stabilize in your rifle.

Lucky Bullet Twist Calc.xlsBullet Twist Calc.xls

[Johnny Knight]

Thanks Lucky for the additional data point!

So, I put in the twist of 15, the bullet diameter of .38, kept the velocity at 1300 and it looks like it gives me a max bullet length of 1.2148.  Playing with the calculator a bit, if I wanted to go to the 1.25" bullet, as is the case with the Accurate 38-337L, then it looks like I'll need to have the muzzle velocity at 1400.  Am I understanding this correctly?

Johnny

[Kid Rich]

I sent you a pm. When I see you at EOT I will have some cast bullets for you.

kR

[Lucky R. K.]

23 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks Lucky for the additional data point!

So, I put in the twist of 15, the bullet diameter of .38, kept the velocity at 1300 and it looks like it gives me a max bullet length of 1.2148.  Playing with the calculator a bit, if I wanted to go to the 1.25" bullet, as is the case with the Accurate 38-337L, then it looks like I'll need to have the muzzle velocity at 1400.  Am I understanding this correctly?

Johnny

That's the way I understand it, Johnny. The formula is called the "Greenhill Formula" and you can find explanations for it on the internet. Search for "Greenhill Formula". I found it a long time ago when I was trying to get a Lyman 330 gr. Postell bullet to work in a 38-55 Steevens 44-1/2. It worked for me.

Lucky 

[Rancho Roy]

As others have said, its all about bore diameter.......once you get that figured out, a 250 +/- grain bullet will be very accurate with a 1-15 twist.....I've won a number of 300 yd matches with a 250g Lee bullet, tumble lubed with Red Rooster Lube, loaded over 9g of Unique with a 3/4" x 3/4" piece of tissue paper pushed down the case to hold powder against the primer......and stored primer down while traveling. Recoil is like a 22 Magnum and accuracy in six of my 38-55 is spectacular.....even out to measured 380 yds.....I've tried heavier bullets in my 1-15 twist barrels but out at 300 yards they are going sideways unless I get them into the 1500-1600fps range.....Loving the 38-55!

[Griff]

On 2/5/2023 at 3:58 PM, Johnny Knight said:

I've seen a number of recommendations for smokeless, trying to see what I can come up with for black powder.  My understanding is that unless a bullet specifically indicates that it was lubed for black powder, then the assumption is that that it was lubed for smokeless which won't play with the black powder? 

Johnny

In the main that is correct.  APP doesn't need a BP compatible lube.