How many use a 1887 shotgun in competition?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Another pard here east of the Hudson once told me that the Chinese 87s are nearly perfect copies of the oiriginals, which were built for 2.5" shells.  You will probably find that the shorter shells will work better.   I know that even though my Winchester has had it's chamber lengthened to 2.75", it works much better with Magtech 2.5"s than it does with AA's.

My Chiappa on the other hand, digests 2.75" shells with no problem, but occasionally stovepipes the shorter shells.

Go figure.

BTW, Reverend, you said you are from New England.   Have we me?

All the China made ones are copies of the 1901 version.

Coyote Cap worked his tail off to bring the '87 and '97 to us cowboy shooters.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

42 minutes ago, Sasparilla Groz said:

I just got this original 1887.   Made in 1895.   It has been reworked at some point in its life.   It is almost too pretty to shoot...I haven't figured out if I am going to modify it or just stare at it....

WOW 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

WOW 

Why would you modify it?

 

As much as I love my original, I gotta get me one of the long barrel Chiappas so I can occasionally shoot smokeless with an 87.  But they've got screw in chokes.   I HATE screw in chokes.

Edited February 2 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Dantankerous]

Don't drool too much on that beautiful '87, Groz! Wow!!!!! What a shotgun!

[Warden Callaway]

I bought a Chinese PW87 years ago.  I worked and worked trying to get it to work. I didn't attempt a drop two mod.   I shot it in one match and it was a train wreck from start to finish.   Another guy wanted it bad.  Got my money back.  

 

Was at one of my toy stores and he had a Coyote Cap 87 used but like new in box. Bought it at about half going price.  Shot it a couple of times at home.  Another cowboy shooter wanted it bad. Came out well. 

 

Same store bought out the decorations from a private bar with western theme.  Had a 1878 in wall hanger condition.  Made first year of production.  Barrel had several bends in it. Needed an extractor.  Needed work.  I fixed it up. Shoots ok.  I shot it in a match or two.

 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

34 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Why would you modify it?

 

As much as I love my original, I gotta get me one of the long barrel Chiappas so I can occasionally shoot smokeless with an 87.  But they've got screw in chokes.   I HATE screw in chokes.

You should have quoted the original poster and not my WOW of his post.  

[Hooligan Howes]

[Fireball #7709 Life]

7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

All the China made ones are copies of the 1901 version.

Coyote Cap worked his tail off to bring the '87 and '97 to us cowboy shooters.

Only a copy of the 1901 in regards to the 3rd locking point(hinged lever), all the "china ones" are based on the 12 gauge frame of the 1887, whereas the original 1901 was ONLY ever available in 10 gauge.  The Chiappa is a copy of the original 1901 in size(1/4" difference in receiver and bolt length vs. the 1887), but is chambered in 12 gauge and has the hinged lever locking point.

Edited February 3 by Fireball #7709 Life

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

12 minutes ago, Fireball #7709 Life said:

Only a copy of the 1901 in regards to the 3rd locking point(hinged lever), all the "china ones" are based on the 12 gauge frame of the 1887, whereas the 1901 was ONLY ever available in 10 gauge.  The Chiappa is a copy of the 1901 in size(1/4" difference in receiver and bolt length), but is chambered in 12 gauge.

And the double extractors and lever latch of the 1901 model. There's a couple more items too.

Cap used the 1901 model because of the cartridge length also. 

Cap told me this when I ordered my wife's  and my 87's way back when.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

oops !

Edited February 3 by Painted Mohawk SASS 77785

[Copper Sean O Driscoll]

I own one but it is not SASS legal.  Mine is a register legal SBS with a 10.25 inch barrel.  Id love to use it though. 

Edited February 3 by Copper Sean O Driscoll
Add pictures

[WOODFOX , sass#34179]

I have been using one for about 7 years I got kind of bored and bought a CZ Sharptail in Aug. from Longhunter a 20" hammerless trying to get used to it .I might go back to the 87

Woodfox

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, WOODFOX , sass#34179 said:

I have been using one for about 7 years I got kind of bored and bought a CZ Sharptail in Aug. from Longhunter a 20" hammerless trying to get used to it .I might go back to the 87

Woodfox

I'm in the same mindset. 

Really liking my CZ.....

The '87 is the coolest gun in SASS

[Buckshot Bob]

Has anyone heard what became of these ? After this I never heard anything about them again 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:42 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

All the China made ones are copies of the 1901 version.

Only the two piece lever.  The action is the same size as an 87.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Only the two piece lever.  The action is the same size as an 87.

IIRC, the 1901 had the 2 extractors and a lifter stop.

Also, it was the only version of the '87 that was proofed for smokeless powder. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Lump, the later and more common Winchester 87s had two extractors.  The action on the ChiCom 87s is the same size as an original 87 which is why Cap put a note in the box that Winchester AAs were the preferred ammo.  AAs are on average 1/16" shorter than an STS or Gun Club.  The action is no where near the size of a 1901.

 

Here are a few photos.  The easiest way to identify an early 87 is to look at the fore end.  The older ones have a solid front mag tube mount and one screw in the forearm.

 

 

The later 87s had a barrel band and two screws in the forearm.

 

 

The early 87s had one large extractor.  The plate on the other side is to knock down the carrier.  It is rigid and does not move.

 

 

A view from the top.

 

 

The later 87s have two smaller extractors.

 

 

A view from the top.

 

 

For SASS shooting, using modern plastic hulls, I prefer the old single extractor version.  It is easier to load and extraction with light loaded SASS ammo is not an issue.

Edited February 4 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

45 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Lump, the later and more common Winchester 87s had two extractors.  The action on the ChiCom 87s is the same size as an original 87 which is why Cap put a note in the box that Winchester AAs were the preferred ammo.  AAs are on average 1/16" shorter than an STS or Gun Club.  The action is no where near the size of a 1901.

 

Here are a few photos.  The easiest way to identify an early 87 is to look at the fore end.  The older ones have a solid front mag tube mount and one screw in the forearm.

 

 

The later 87s had a barrel band and two screws in the forearm.

 

 

The early 87s had one large extractor.  The plate on the other side is to knock down the carrier.  It is rigid and does not move.

 

 

A view from the top.

 

 

The later 87s have two smaller extractors.

 

 

A view from the top.

 

 

For SASS shooting, using modern plastic hulls, I prefer the old single extractor version.  It is easier to load and extraction with light loaded SASS ammo is not an issue.

Do now think I miss-remembered. 

Thanks for the photos and explanation. 

I now recall Cap say'n they run best with the WW shells. 

Do you know when the 2 extractor deal came out?

 

[Buckshot Bear]

Cheers pards 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:31 PM, Sasparilla Groz said:

I just got this original 1887.   Made in 1895.   It has been reworked at some point in its life.   It is almost too pretty to shoot...I haven't figured out if I am going to modify it or just stare at it....

Cool! I’ve never seen color case hardening on an original ’87. Just me, but I wouldn’t modify it if that means cutting the barrel. 

 

Edited February 4 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

My 1888 manufactured '87 has one extractor.

 

My 1891 manufactured '87 has two extractors.

 

I  have this information in my files but I did not document the source.

"Double extractors began to be used between serial numbers 25,000 & 30,000 in 1889."

 

Edited February 4 by Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I’ve had a coyote cap gun for a number of years, but shot it only occasionally. I made a commitment to shoot more classic cowboy and acquired a TTN 1878 which went down two years ago with a broken mainspring, and remains down due to unavailability of a replacement spring. 
 

So I went to the ‘87. It took awhile, but I finally figured out how to hold the shells to load it reliably and am getting even smoother with practice and time. Shot a clean match with it at this past Land Run. Love the gun!

[Sedalia Dave]

19 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I’ve had a coyote cap gun for a number of years, but shot it only occasionally. I made a commitment to shoot more classic cowboy and acquired a TTN 1878 which went down two years ago with a broken mainspring, and remains down due to unavailability of a replacement spring. 
 

So I went to the ‘87. It took awhile, but I finally figured out how to hold the shells to load it reliably and am getting even smoother with practice and time. Shot a clean match with it at this past Land Run. Love the gun!

 

A competent gun smith can fit a new V spring to the action on your TTN.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The the single extractor 87 in the photo I posted is in the 28,000 number range.  I just typed the number in the Winchester serial number search box on the Winchester site and it came back 1890. I'm to lazy to get out the three double extractor models I have to look at the serial numbers.  So, sometime after 1890.

Edited February 4 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Dantankerous]

Abilene Slim,

 

I bet you could sell that TTN easily enough.

 

Why?

 

To help fund your next '87... a nice Chiappa.

[Buckshot Bob]

 

 

[Fireball #7709 Life]

The 10 gauge guns,  both original 1887 and all 1901s were 1/4" longer.  The Chiappa is based on the 10 gauge 1901.  All Chinese guns and the original 12 gauge guns were 1/4" shorter.  In the pics, top, original 1901 10 gauge, 2nd from top,  one of my match guns, a very early, original 12 gauge(with early style firing pin), 3rd from top, IAC Chinese 12 gauge, bottom, original 10 gauge 1887 10 gauge(converted to 12).

 

Dual extractors were introduced to deal with paper shells swelling.  All reproductions have dual extractors(not an advantage for how we use the guns).

 

Dual forend screws came about with the "2nd gen" originals and the change in magazine mounting.

 

There are at least,  4 different hammers and 5 different triggers in the originals.

 

There are other trivial differences.   Number of carrier screws,  additional screws for extractor function.  IAC's have a combination of metric and SAE screw threads(probably based on a repaired original they copied).  The list goes on. 

 

A properly functioning original,  that has had the chambered lengthened, will function modern plastic 2 3/4" shells fine.  The longer ones may barely rub on the way out, but it is not a problem. 

 

The amount of incorrect information quoted on the internet can be dizzying.   I've lived with,  worked on and competed with these guns since the early 90's.   It's a passion.

[Fireball #7709 Life]

This illustrates the difference in magazine mounting and 1 screw versus 2 forends.  Also the 4th carrier sized screw on the left of some originals.  Right,  in use main match,  4 digit early gun.  Left, Lassiter modified,  IAC setup as a match gun.  I still use my originals as the wood is less blocky, the butt stock has a better rise for the high receiver on all of them and I think the action "feel" is better.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Lassiter worked magic on my 87 Chichester I like it. But is shoot at glacial speed.  Few years back got the flyer at Winter Range with it.  

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

Had a Norinco, worked over by both Coyote Cap and Lassiter, but it takes some time and dedication to learn to run one smoothly, and I didn't use it often enough to learn. I bought it in 2011, and finally sold it to a dedicated '87 shooter last year who wanted a backup.

[stepnmud#33546]

Liked using my '87 C.C. Special edition, but didn't get as reliable with the two drop method using brass shells and blackpowder, still tons of fun. Tried something a little different with the AA Winchester target loads and can tightly hold to the shoulder the '87  with right hand on the lever and grab four shells left hand and single feed like shooters do with a '97. Once in a while, I could keep from fumbling with the four shell in left hand and make it happen. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 hours ago, Fireball #7709 Life said:

The 10 gauge guns,  both original 1887 and all 1901s were 1/4" longer.  The Chiappa is based on the 10 gauge 1901.  All Chinese guns and the original 12 gauge guns were 1/4" shorter.  In the pics, top, original 1901 10 gauge, 2nd from top,  one of my match guns, a very early, original 12 gauge(with early style firing pin), 3rd from top, IAC Chinese 12 gauge, bottom, original 10 gauge 1887 10 gauge(converted to 12).

 

Dual extractors were introduced to deal with paper shells swelling.  All reproductions have dual extractors(not an advantage for how we use the guns).

 

Dual forend screws came about with the "2nd gen" originals and the change in magazine mounting.

 

There are at least,  4 different hammers and 5 different triggers in the originals.

 

There are other trivial differences.   Number of carrier screws,  additional screws for extractor function.  IAC's have a combination of metric and SAE screw threads(probably based on a repaired original they copied).  The list goes on. 

 

A properly functioning original,  that has had the chambered lengthened, will function modern plastic 2 3/4" shells fine.  The longer ones may barely rub on the way out, but it is not a problem. 

 

The amount of incorrect information quoted on the internet can be dizzying.   I've lived with,  worked on and competed with these guns since the early 90's.   It's a passion.

Have never seen the top screw in the bolt version.

What was it's purpose? 

[Lever Action Landon]

Love my 87. Not for the faint at heart. Took me a year to be able to run it good. 

[Sixgun Seamus]

I tried the wife's 87 several times. First it's cut for her and way too short for me. I fumble the shells too much. I might as well just have a washtub of shells to grab and throw them around on the ground. Same results and much faster shell distribution. With my TTN, all I have to do is put those two little round red thingies in those two little holes in front of me.... close'er up, pull the triggers and voila... Bang bang. Much easier for me. 

[Fireball #7709 Life]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Have never seen the top screw in the bolt version.

What was it's purpose? 

There are at least three types of firing pins.   The very early(a couple thousand) guns used a different firing pin than the majority.  That screw retains it.   There is no cross pin like later guns/ repro's.  1901's used a firing pin retraction lever,  so those firing pins are different.  That is also a feature that didn't make it into any repro's.