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The Original Big and Close


Lawdog Dago Dom

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Thats why there is no better place than Tombstone for the original big and close match Bordertown.

 

It also reminds us that gunfights in the old west (generally) were up close and personal - a lot more common distance was across a card table or length of a bar top than the 70 (claimed) yards between Hickok and Tutt.

 

I drew up a OK Corral stage a time or two - but to fully embrace it would have required paper targets to get the distances right.

(there are limits to how close even I am willing to shoot steel)

And between the complaints that paper elicits and the time to tape holes - I never put one into play. 

I kind of regret that omission.

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I’m sure the black powder clouds were a factor if there was little wind. Gunfights inside saloons etc had to be really hard to see after two shots. 

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I’m sure the black powder clouds were a factor if there was little wind. Gunfights inside saloons etc had to be really hard to see after two shots. 

 

That's only a couple of shots in a saloon. Think about entire armies lining up and shooting all at once on a Revolutionary or Civil War battlefield. After the first volley, you wouldn't be able to see anything. Movies never show it that way though.

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1 minute ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

That's only a couple of shots in a saloon. Think about entire armies lining up and shooting all at once on a Revolutionary or Civil War battlefield. After the first volley, you wouldn't be able to see anything. Movies never show it that way though.

There may be more than a couple shots in a saloon fight since they probably missed alot due to not being able to see! :lol:Heck I couldn't seen the targets after one round sometimes!!! 

You're right though about the Civil and Revolutionary Wars battlefields! Wow it had to be very hard to see!!

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3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I’m sure the black powder clouds were a factor if there was little wind. Gunfights inside saloons etc had to be really hard to see after two shots. 

That was one of the things I liked about the Wyatt Earp movie with Costner. When Ed Masterson gets shot at point blank range and the wound is on fire. 
 

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13 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Thats why there is no better place than Tombstone for the original big and close match Bordertown.

 

It also reminds us that gunfights in the old west (generally) were up close and personal - a lot more common distance was across a card table or length of a bar top than the 70 (claimed) yards between Hickok and Tutt.

 

I drew up a OK Corral stage a time or two - but to fully embrace it would have required paper targets to get the distances right.

(there are limits to how close even I am willing to shoot steel)

And between the complaints that paper elicits and the time to tape holes - I never put one into play. 

I kind of regret that omission.



 Have  You thought about using the Birchwood 3D torso targets? I will spray foam them onto a Stand and then just spray paint hits 

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16 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Thats why there is no better place than Tombstone for the original big and close match Bordertown.

 

It also reminds us that gunfights in the old west (generally) were up close and personal - a lot more common distance was across a card table or length of a bar top than the 70 (claimed) yards between Hickok and Tutt.

 

I drew up a OK Corral stage a time or two - but to fully embrace it would have required paper targets to get the distances right.

(there are limits to how close even I am willing to shoot steel)

And between the complaints that paper elicits and the time to tape holes - I never put one into play. 

I kind of regret that omission.

My experience at Bordertown last year is that the targets aren’t really bigger than anywhere else- they’re just a LOT closer!!

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On 1/30/2023 at 7:00 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Thats why there is no better place than Tombstone for the original big and close match Bordertown.

 

It also reminds us that gunfights in the old west (generally) were up close and personal - a lot more common distance was across a card table or length of a bar top than the 70 (claimed) yards between Hickok and Tutt.

 

I drew up a OK Corral stage a time or two - but to fully embrace it would have required paper targets to get the distances right.

(there are limits to how close even I am willing to shoot steel)

And between the complaints that paper elicits and the time to tape holes - I never put one into play. 

I kind of regret that omission.

 

How many feet from the firing line do you consider close?

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6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

How many feet from the firing line do you consider close?

Using 16 inch steel (or larger) - my "close" target sets were: 

Pistol targets at 3 paces

(my pace was just shy of a yard - a little shorter now due to a knee injury a few years back)

Rifle at 8 paces

Shotgun at 7 paces.

 

My standard sets were:

Pistol at 4-6 paces

Rifle at 12 - 15 paces

Shotgun at 8 paces

 

The above requires quality non pocked steel, and the steel being properly hung with sufficient downward deflection angle.

 

But with the above caveats in place - these arrays/ distances were safely shot at by 1000's of shooters over my 16+ years of being a match director for Desert Desperados and the Eldorado Cowboys.

And additionally while writing matches for multiple other clubs in Nevada, Arizona and Southern California.

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8 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

We use your standard, the close seems awful close!

If you aint living on the edge - you're taking up too much room.:D

 

A lot of folks feel the same as you - most get past it as long as they see splatter is managed safely.

But some are and remain put off by it visually.

That's fair and their prerogative.

 

But I always said if I'm the one setting the steel - I'm putting it where I think it's the most fun.

And I thoroughly adore close targets.

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1 minute ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Using 16 inch steel (or larger) - my "close" target sets were: 

Pistol targets at 3 paces

(my pace was just shy of a yard - a little shorter now due to a knee injury a few years back)

Rifle at 8 paces

Shotgun at 7 paces.

 

My standard sets were:

Pistol at 4-6 paces

Rifle at 12 - 15 paces

Shotgun at 8 paces

 

The above requires quality non pocked steel, and the steel being properly hung with sufficient downward deflection angle.

 

But with the above caveats in place - these arrays/ distances were safely shot at by 1000's of shooters over my 16+ years of being a match director for Desert Desperados and the Eldorado Cowboys.

And additionally while writing matches for multiple other clubs in Nevada, Arizona and Southern California.

 

Around here close is 6 to 8 feet for pistol targets and 10 to 15 feet for rifle targets. A tape measure was used so those distances are accurate. I really hate that more and more clubs are setting targets so close that you could touch them with a rifle barrel.  

 

I wanted to shoot the TX State BP match but a target 4 feet from the end of my pistol barrel is not safe in my book no matter how good the steel is.

 

The wild bunch side match was shot at those same distances. :(

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This is a game - nothing more.

Everyone has to look at the game and make determinations for theirselves and family about acceptable risk.

 

If I were to encounter a stage design or target array that I felt endangered me or my family - I would either seek demonstration of safe operation, ask for a change or pack my gear. 

There is ABSOLUTELY no harm in questioning the match director regarding a perceived danger. 

And no match director should ever take offense at having the questions asked.

 

And even if the stage/ sequence/ array can be demonstrated to be safe - I can still decide that it's not comfortable for me and decide to not shoot it or participate. 

No one should ever feel forced to partake in anything.

And a good match director should consider how best to accommodate those that they make uncomfortable in their future stage designs.

It's just a game and at the end of the day - I want everyone to be safe and have fun.

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3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Around here close is 6 to 8 feet for pistol targets and 10 to 15 feet for rifle targets. A tape measure was used so those distances are accurate. I really hate that more and more clubs are setting targets so close that you could touch them with a rifle barrel.  

 

I wanted to shoot the TX State BP match but a target 4 feet from the end of my pistol barrel is not safe in my book no matter how good the steel is.

 

The wild bunch side match was shot at those same distances. :(

That’s close! I don’t think I’ve ever shot a match with targets that close - 6 to 8 feet? Typical here is more like 5-6 yards for pistols and 10-12 yards for rifle.

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The targets keep getting closer and closer. I have seen targets at 6 - 8 feet away from the back edge of the typical table. There has been one stage that I wouldn't shoot until they modified it, not going to say when or where though. If the targets get much closer, the starting line is going to be "FIX BAYONETS".

 

I wonder if a bayonet mount on a '73 is an external modification? 

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