Tanks!

[Trailrider #896]

President Biden just announced that we will be sending 31 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. Germany and Poland (?) will also be sending Leopard II tanks to Ukraine.  The main problem with sending the M1's is it will take a while and the Ukrainians will have to be trained not only in operating them, but maintaining them.  Should have been done much earlier, but better late than never...I guess.

[Rip Snorter]

Early Tanks-giving, obviously!

[Cypress Sun]

He'll have a whole lot harder time depositing them in a bank account.

 

Boondoggle.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

3 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

He'll have a whole lot harder time depositing them in a bank account.

 

Boondoggle.

The Big Guy (aka "The Sock Puppet in Chief ") only gets 10%.

 

A measly 3 tanks ought to be easier to deposit than 2 1/2 dozen.

[Trailrider #896]

Whenever they get the M1's and Leopard II's operational, they ought to drop rolls of toilet paper to the crewmen of the Russian T-74B's. The sight (if they actually get to see them before the first rounds start coming in) should result in rapid evacuation!  I understand that at least one M1 scored a hit in Desert Storm that exceeded the length of the practice ranges in Germany! 

[Rip Snorter]

There is a story about an Iraqi tank commander.  Rough quote via recollection. "They came in from the desert, even we don't go there.  First the tank to the right of me was hit, then the one to the left, and then mine.  We never even saw them."

[Utah Bob #35998]

21 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

There is a story about an Iraqi tank commander.  Rough quote via recollection. "They came in from the desert, even we don't go there.  First the tank to the right of me was hit, then the one to the left, and then mine.  We never even saw them."

A guy in my VFW post was a TC at 73 Easting. He said they never knew what hit em.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

73 Easting is legendary in so many ways.

 

My concern about sending the Abrams is the logistics required to support them, and where those logistics will lead the US and allies in the war’s next phases.

The Abrams runs on JP-8, jet fuel, not diesel.  JP-8 is easy enough to manage at airfields, but start moving to the field and the infrastructure is not there to move the gas.  Helicopters can fly to a FARP site, but JP-8 has to follow tanks in tanker trucks.  Diesel, fuel for the Leopard 2, is ubiquitous on the modern battlefield.  JP-8 is not.  I don’t see the Abrams being effective on a grand scale, other than being used near towns with fuel handling facilities.

 

Then there’s training to use and maintain the Abrams.  Do you think Ukraine is going to send hundreds of troops to the US to learn the trade, then bring them back with a 1-800 support line when things break?  Not!  The generational body of knowledge about Abrams tanks lies in American minds.  Which leads to my nightmare scenario…

 

American technicians will go with the tanks to Ukraine, Russia strikes a training site and kills some Americans, and the stakes just rose exponentially. Hawks around the country and in Congress thump their chests and demand the US “do something”.  And then…
 

Anti-tank missiles and artillery are simple and effective.  This move with Abrams and Leopard 2s gives me great cause for concern.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

8 hours ago, Rip Snorter said:

"They came in from the desert, even we don't go there.

The Americans had first generation GPS, which nobody else had.  We could maneuver in the featureless desert and navigate accurately. That allowed not only 73 Easting but the entire sweep to the north across flat nothingness to cut off the route back to Baghdad.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Somehow staying mixed up in Ukraine does not seem to make good sense. There’s always that law of unintended consequences.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

10 hours ago, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

Somehow staying mixed up in Ukraine does not seem to make good sense. There’s always that law of unintended consequences.

And when has that stopped an American Administration from foreign folly?

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

31 minutes ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

And when has that stopped an American Administration from foreign folly?

It hasn’t. 
 

But that doesn’t stop me from hoping for a different outcome this time. 

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

29 minutes ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

It hasn’t. 
 

But that doesn’t stop me from hoping for a different outcome this time. 

With the current bunch in control?

 

Common sense is a super power almost everywhere these days but inside the Beltway, it's a thing of myths and legends.  This crew doesn't give reality even a passing nod without being forced to do so, so what makes you think that they are capable of thinking things through that far out?

[PowderRiverCowboy]

At 9 mil a piece  thanks US Tax payer while you lower ours even more Great job . SECNAV already states we are severely low in our supply of arms wreaking America one step at a time Good news is reports that Ukraine Army is kidnapping males to come fight . I say all those that support Hunters coke buddy   here we send to help  also.

 

 Another fun fact, for you all those weapons, the new equipment that we left in Afghanistan Taliban is selling it them to Russia . 

[Wrangler Rich SASS #42157]

The only way that I see a victory for Ukraine is total destruction of Russia. Putin will keep going until he draws us into the fight.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

1 minute ago, Wrangler Rich SASS #42157 said:

The only way that I see a victory for Ukraine is total destruction of Russia. Putin will keep going until he draws us into the fight.

Or dies

[J.D. Daily]

15 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

73 Easting is legendary in so many ways.

 

My concern about sending the Abrams is the logistics required to support them, and where those logistics will lead the US and allies in the war’s next phases.

The Abrams runs on JP-8, jet fuel, not diesel.  JP-8 is easy enough to manage at airfields, but start moving to the field and the infrastructure is not there to move the gas.  Helicopters can fly to a FARP site, but JP-8 has to follow tanks in tanker trucks.  Diesel, fuel for the Leopard 2, is ubiquitous on the modern battlefield.  JP-8 is not.  I don’t see the Abrams being effective on a grand scale, other than being used near towns with fuel handling facilities.

 

Then there’s training to use and maintain the Abrams.  Do you think Ukraine is going to send hundreds of troops to the US to learn the trade, then bring them back with a 1-800 support line when things break?  Not!  The generational body of knowledge about Abrams tanks lies in American minds.  Which leads to my nightmare scenario…

 

American technicians will go with the tanks to Ukraine, Russia strikes a training site and kills some Americans, and the stakes just rose exponentially. Hawks around the country and in Congress thump their chests and demand the US “do something”.  And then…
 

Anti-tank missiles and artillery are simple and effective.  This move with Abrams and Leopard 2s gives me great cause for concern.

Gas turbines with liquid fuel systems will run on any hydrocarbon liquid.  In my 34 years working for a CAT dealer'''s engine division there were many times where the end user was the Navy or Air Force.  When the site was an air base the fuel was JP-8.  JP-8 has a lower density than no. 2 diesel.  JP-8 spec. has a wider range of sulfur allowed, lower lubricity & lower energy density.  The lower density means that fuel consumption is higher.  Lower lubricity means injection pumps, unit injectors & high pressure pumps have shorter lives.  Unless the injection system is calibrated for lower heat value the engine derates 5-8%.  I am sure the Leopard II's use JP-8 since it is NATO fuel.  Depending on the ATG-2500's fuel control system there should be no loss in performance running fuel oil available in Ukraine.  GT's fuel control whether mechanical or digital control fuel flow to combustors & compressor guide vanes based on throttle position, compressor discharge temperature & hot stage input gas temperature.  If digital control more parameters are monitored.  In the winter the combustion air density is high & temperature is low which results in lower hot stage gas temperature will be lower so unless there is a fuel flow limiter the shaft power will be higher thanATG-250 factory rating.  Therefore the M1 will be faster than in the sandbox.  The APU will like DF-2 fuel. 

[Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494]

2 hours ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

With the current bunch in control?

 

 

  Problem is, the current bunch is 'out of control'.......

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

1- The biggest problem with this is the computer system in the M1 Abrams is amazingly advanced, but requires CONSTANT updates from the operators to keep it as accurate as it's supposed to be.  The training on this is stupidly complex, and I question the Ukrainians' ability to do this well.  So I fear it's going to be a very expensive waste of resources.

 

2- I'm rooting for Ukraine because I believe in everyone's right to self-determination.  HOWEVER, I do not believe we should be involved in this.  This has the potential to spin out of control much faster than we can get it under control, and I'm also sick and tired of expending immense resources fighting other peoples' battles.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

5 hours ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

So I fear it's going to be a very expensive waste of resources.

I see news footage of Abrams arriving in Ukraine and driving into a “battle” before they turn into pillboxes and get abandoned within a month. 

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Ukraine needs help..fine..BUT I still remember an inept President that caused the unnecessary  loss of life & abandoned USA  armament into the hands of the enemy.!!

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

13 hours ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

And when has that stopped an American Administration from foreign folly?

True. I just find it particularly bad when a half wit with dementia is trying to outwit a ruthless authoritarian that has all of his faculties.

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

I heard one time in WWII we set up cardboard tanks.

Enemy troops spent lots of time money energy attacking cardboard.

Maybe??

Best

CR

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

13 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

It hasn’t. 
 

But that doesn’t stop me from hoping for a different outcome this time. 

Not much hope with these bone heads in the control!

[Blind Squirrel]

My question is since when did Ukraine become an important U.S. “Ally?”

[Rip Snorter]

51 minutes ago, Chili Ron said:

Howdy,

I heard one time in WWII we set up cardboard tanks.

Enemy troops spent lots of time money energy attacking cardboard.

Maybe??

Best

CR

 

Yup, in England, if I recall correctly they even temporarily transferred Patton to complete the illusion.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

1 hour ago, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

True. I just find it particularly bad when a half wit with dementia is trying to outwit a ruthless authoritarian that has all of his faculties.

Sniffy is just trying to earn his daily ice cream.  He'll do whatever he's told.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

33 minutes ago, Blind Squirrel said:

My question is since when did Ukraine become an important U.S. “Ally?”

Never. It’s a proxy war. We are using Ukraine’s Human Resources to beat down on Russia.

 

UAF will send troops to Poland to train on the Abrams. It’ll take a year or more.

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

On 1/27/2023 at 7:13 AM, Chili Ron said:

Howdy,

I heard one time in WWII we set up cardboard tanks.

Enemy troops spent lots of time money energy attacking cardboard.

Maybe??

Best

CR

 

 

I don't know about cardboard, but inflatable tanks were used as an integral part of Eisenhower's deception plan to convince Hitler and the Germans that the D-Day landings were a feint, and the main effort was landing elsewhere.  Coupled with radio transmissions between non-existent units and Patton being sidelined, Hitler bought it hook, line, and sinker.

 

However, this is not 1944 and Russia is not Germany.  Putin may be diabolical, but he's also a political genius, and he has spent his entire adult life studying how the United States conceives of and thinks about war.  He knows us....AAAAAAAND he has multi-spectral satellite technology.  Multi-spectral satellites collect images outside of the visible spectrum of light.  By collecting certain invisible wavelengths, multi-spectral images can determine the material from which an object is made.  So inflatable tanks will show up as rubber, and cardboard tanks will show up as cardboard.