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Starline's odd comment about 44-40 brass and Uberti


Abilene, SASS # 27489

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I was just browsing on Starline's website and noticed that their 44-40 page had this statement:

 

"It has come to our attention that some Uberti revolvers have issues with light hammer strikes and will only fire with Federal primers, which we generally recommend for revolvers anyway."

 

Huh?  This makes no sense to me.  I jumped around to a number of various other calibers used for CAS and don't see this statement anywhere else.

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Over the past few years I have only heard of one person having strike issues and he is from overseas (or was it Canada). I have never had an issue nor have I heard of anyone else having issues. I think his handle is Indian Joe. When I run across the topics on other forums, I will try to remember to link them here.

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Hwdy ,

 

My first thought was like Largo's, but then I remembered that this was about revolvers. If the case rim is in spec and the space between the cylinder face and the frame around the firing pin hole is within tolerance the shoulder shouldn't make a difference (except if the shoulder is too far forward to allow fully chambering). To be honest, I don't shoot or know much about the "/40" cartridges, so feel free to show that my thinking is all wet.

 

For what it's worth,

Rev. Chase

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Yep, .44 WCF headspaces on rim, so shoulder location makes no difference- it would be reset back to standard when run through a sizer die if it were not within specs.

 

Sounds like Starline has been reading the Wire too much.   Hearing about how light the springs are that "we" keep using.  :o

 

good luck, GJ

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I recently loaded 500 brand new starline 44WCF and noticed the primers (federal large pistol) seated well below the rim. I hope they go off. Older brass seems to be closer to flush.

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That almost sounds like the factory stuck the tooling for rifle primer pockets in the machinery, due to some employee forgetting they were working on pistol cartridges.  I'd send it back for a replacement!

 

good luck, GJ

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A Facebook friend who loads cowboy ammo but does not shoot matches due to health issues posted some time back that Starline told him that they intentionally made the primer pockets deep in .44-40 cases.  I don’t remember why.  I might ask him.

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I always considered the 44WCF a rifle cartridge because it was introduced in the Winchester 1873 rifle. Then in many other rifles. 

 

A buddy that collects antique Winchester guns gave me a handful of very old 44WCF and 38WCF cartridges.   The primers are small and seated below the base.  My reloads in Starline with large pistol primers seat below flush with base because I want my primers to be seated on the bottom of the pocket.

 

The only reason I can think of for setting the primers deeper is so the bullet of the next cartridge does not hit against the primer in front on a tube magazine. 

 

1909566514_old44WCFJan2023.jpg.ee5610203afa6bda22fb632ebe7cf307.jpg

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Hmm...   

.44-40 revolvers.

(antiques)

1 1st Gen Colt 

1 Merwin & Hulbert
1 S&W Model 3 DA
1 S&W New Model 3
1 Colt 1878

 

(modern)

1 Uberti Clone
1 3rd Gen Colt
1 3rd Gen Buntline, .44 Special with .44-40 Cylinder

2 3rd Gen Sheriff's Model, .44 Special with .44-40 Cylinders

 

I use Winchester primers, the ones labeled "For use in standard or magnum loads."  They always go bang in all of the above.

Don't know what that means, if anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well, you got me interested enough to check the SAAMI standards/guides.   All the "dash-caliber" cartridges are considered by SAAMI to be rifle cartridges.   That of course was the original usage.  The only centerfire cartridge that I find which has a dual-purpose use, showing up in both the Pistol guide and the Rifle guide, is the .44 Rem Magnum.

 

If what Starline has in mind is that loaders ought to load .44 WCF (aka .44-40) with rifle primers, then perhaps it makes sense that they recommend the primer that is commonly recognized as being the easiest to fire (Federal) when using the cartridge in revolvers, where firing pin strike force is much less than in rifles.  And maybe this general information SHOULD be included in the other "Dash" cartridges when used in revolvers.   But if that is what they are advising (and how they are making brass), it would be better if they clearly stated that!

 

Looking through loading manuals, several of them that specify the type of primer used (at least for their load testing), call out large pistol primers in .their .44-40 section found in the rifle pages.   Interestingly, the .44 Rem Magnum also calls for Large Pistol primers when it is listed in pistol or rifle pages.   The SAAMI standards seem to leave open a loophole for proper size of primer to use in cartridges that have common use in both rifle and handguns.

 

Seems Starline may be "bucking the trend" of forming .44-40 brass with pistol length primer pockets and doing their own thing (rifle size pockets).

 

Does anyone want to measure primer pocket depths in all those "Dash" cases to see what they run both in Starline and some of the other manufacturers' brass?

 

good luck, GJ

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7 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

44-40 and 38-40 both seem to have deeper primer pockets than straight walled brass. I have taken 44-40 brass that would give me light strikes and put rifle primers in it and it seats flush and goes off.

kR

 

5 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

That almost sounds like the factory stuck the tooling for rifle primer pockets in the machinery, due to some employee forgetting they were working on pistol cartridges.  I'd send it back for a replacement!

 

good luck, GJ

 

Per SAAMI specifications 44-40 is classified as a rifle cartridge and not a pistol cartridge. If Starline is making their brass to SAAMI specifications then the primer pockets would be the correct depth for large rifle and not large pistol primers.

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1 minute ago, Sedalia Dave said:

If Starline is making their brass to SAAMI specifications then the primer pockets would be the correct depth

 

You are implying that SAAMI, by including the cartridge in the rifle standards, actually wants a rifle size primer pocket.  As I read the standards, that is NEVER stated.

 

And, all loading manuals I have looked at this morning call out the use of Large Pistol primers in .44-40 and .44 Remington Magnum load data found in the RIFLE section.  Lyman, Hornady, Speer, ...

 

When all the loading manuals say to do it one way, is a brass company doing it the other way, correct in what they are making?

 

good luck, GJ

 

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All of the above speculation is interesting, but why would Starling specifically say Uberti revolvers?   Perhaps G.J. got it right that Starline has been reading the Wire too much. :P

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Some quick measurements done carefully, but only with an good dial caliper (not a depth mike, which I don't have).

Five cases, very lightly cleaned pockets, average depth:

 

Starline unfired, from about 2008             0.124"

Starline fired with BP loads 2006?            0.123"

Winchester fired with BP loads                 0.120"

  (some fairly old - maybe back to 1995) 

 

Those all seem to be made to PISTOL depth (0.117 to 0.123", per SAAMI)

Rather than made to RIFLE depth (SAAMI spec,  0.125 to 0.132")

 

Anybody compare to these?  Especially new made Starline?

 

good luck, GJ

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44 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Those all seem to be made to PISTOL depth (0.117 to 0.123", per SAAMI)

Rather than made to RIFLE depth (SAAMI spec,  0.125 to 0.132")

Good info. I don't have any "new" starline thats empty, but I have a bunch of older stuff as well as some mixed head stamped, I'll have to check some out.

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Some quick measurements done carefully, but only with an good dial caliper (not a depth mike, which I don't have).

Five cases, very lightly cleaned pockets, average depth:

 

Starline unfired, from about 2008             0.124"

Starline fired with BP loads 2006?            0.123"

Winchester fired with BP loads                 0.120"

  (some fairly old - maybe back to 1995) 

 

Those all seem to be made to PISTOL depth (0.117 to 0.123", per SAAMI)

Rather than made to RIFLE depth (SAAMI spec,  0.125 to 0.132")

 

Anybody compare to these?  Especially new made Starline?

 

good luck, GJ

Just checked 10 new Starline 44-40 cases.  Miked out (dial caliper) to .120", almost exactly.

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2 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Hard to believe a couple of thousands in primer pocket depth would make any difference.  I got one brand new Uberti Smokewagon Taylor's Tuned that had so much cylinder endshake that I replaced the cylinder bushing. 

 

Mine wasn't Taylor tuned, but same. 

 

Back to the topic. I just bought 500 new Star Line 44-40 a few months back, I felt to bring out the tools and measure. I did 5, close enough for cowboy work IMHO..

 

1583488857_depthmics.thumb.jpg.8eff814cb279b3f748652588efa42827.jpg

 

0.1238"

0.1236"

0.1231"

0.1235"

0.1239"

 

After a couple of loadings, I'd suspect that to be less by a bit as the headstamp gets flattened out. 


Just one off topic remark, The reason that the 44 Rem Mag has a rifle and a revolver standard is because Marlin, in their infinite stupidity were the first to want to make a 44 Mag rifle and with their microgroove rifling and wanting to keep pressures low, or other issues,  decided to bastardize their rifle to have a larger bore with groove diameter larger than the pistol 44 groove with a slow as heck twist. They paid for the standard, and the rest of the American manufacturers had to use it as a standard, Anyone using the CIP standard just made the rifle with the same barrel specs as a revolver. In addition the Italians used the 44 Mag revolver barrel in their 44-40 rifles, and I like them just fine. 

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If the primer pockets are not kept clean, crud can build up and a once short seated primer is not a flush seated primer. I do wish I knew the truth for I have yet to run into a batch of primers with deep seating primers. However, they may seat "deeper" than Winchester.

Anyhow, here are some Winchester/Starline, Large Rifle vs Large Pistol primers.

 

Details and Photos here

 

 

 

On a side note....

 

Yes, the 44-40 and 38-40 were and still are pistol size rifle cartridges that can be used in pistols. The 44 Magnum is a pistol sized pistol cartridge that can be used in rifles. The 50 BMG is a rifle cartridge than can be used in pistols.

 

The language is important when discussing rifle/pistol.

Today the tern "pistol caliber" is used very incorrectly, while "pistol cartridge" would more correctly describe the difference.


The 44-40 is a rifle cartridge that can be used in pistols while the .45 "caliber" is used both for pistol cartridges (45 Colt) and rifle cartridges (45-70)

 

 

G.R. Watrous, Jan 11 1943

 

Note that the 44 Remington is the same as the 44 WCF and 44-40 but all using different patented primers

  • Winchester 44 WCF
  • Marlin - 44-40
  • Remington - 44 Remington

1050643642_G.R.WatrousJan111943a.thumb.png.89c08061c121f226a83b17c1f76cdc4f.png

 

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22 hours ago, largo casey #19191 said:

Maybe the shoulder on the case has something to do with it.

                                                                                                                Largo

New Starline brass has no shoulder until fire formed so???????

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After 3 or more of us have checked Starline primer pocket depth, it seems they are setting the depth squarely BETWEEN the shorter pistol depth and the longer rifle depth.  At 0.124" deep.  One thou over max pistol spec, and one thou under min rifle spec.

 

With both older Starline and brand new Starline brass both running about 0.124" pocket depth, Starline brass is closer to being right with PISTOL primers than with RIFLE primers (as that would lead to primers being proud of the case head, and sticking in recoil shields in revolvers and out-of-battery firing in lever rifles). 

 

Now, if anyone can figure out why Starline is singling out Uberti revolvers (even when some have the old style firing pins), it would be helpful.

 

good luck, GJ

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37 minutes ago, Cholla said:

They have a phone. You could call and ask.

But speculating on the Wire is much more interesting. :)

 

If it had anything to do with the new Uberti safety, I'm not sure why it would only show up on 44-40 revolvers.  

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I've still got Federal primers.  I'm loading. 

 

I haven't loaded any .44 WCF for 10 years.  And I don't shoot that cartridge in an Uberti revolver.   So, no personal benefit in that info.

 

Someone else will have to wait on hold.  B)

GJ

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Weird. Back in April or so bought unerty cattleman in 44-40 Taylor's only had 1 got an older model with slots in hammer where you can see the safety mod pin for lack of a better wave to describe. The older gun had noticibly less effort to cook. Had issues in first match with first round in cylinder going bang and 4 clicks on 2 stages. Was going to send back for repair ended up just cleaning the heck out of it and putting oil around firing pin to help lub the pin for floating firing pin loaded up 50 sheels test fired with 4 different shooters no malfunctions. Shot another cowboy match with no problems. The older gun that is easier to cock (lighter spring?) has never had a problem. Wonder if the firing pin safety mechanism is the cause of light primer strikes. And yes all click rounds fired when shot again

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About 6-7 years ago, I had the problem with a brick of Winchester primers in non-modified Ruger OMV 44-40s.  Winchester had me send them some rounds for testing, & said it was the Rugers (e.g. light primer strikes) and not the Winchester Primers.  Funny thing about this is they apologized to me for the problem, reimbursed me for the brick of primers and gave me $50 in additional gift certificates.  I have not aquired any Winchester primers since, just Federal or CCI.  Because this happened with Ruger OMVs I don't think it is limited to a specific brand of firearm.

 

Charlie

 

Forgot to add that I stopped into Scheel's last evening & ended up with 2 bricks of Federal Match small rifle primers - these work perfect for the 32 H&R Mags

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7 hours ago, Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 said:

Weird. Back in April or so bought unerty cattleman in 44-40 Taylor's only had 1 got an older model with slots in hammer where you can see the safety mod pin for lack of a better wave to describe. The older gun had noticibly less effort to cook. Had issues in first match with first round in cylinder going bang and 4 clicks on 2 stages. Was going to send back for repair ended up just cleaning the heck out of it and putting oil around firing pin to help lub the pin for floating firing pin loaded up 50 sheels test fired with 4 different shooters no malfunctions. Shot another cowboy match with no problems. The older gun that is easier to cock (lighter spring?) has never had a problem. Wonder if the firing pin safety mechanism is the cause of light primer strikes. And yes all click rounds fired when shot again

That safety has a known/documented history of FTF.

 

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Just as an FYI, I just looked it up in Lyman's 50th, and the only "dash" cartridges listed that use a "rifle" primer are the 25-20, 32-20, & 32-40, all of which have no listing in the Pistol section.  Having bought my 1st .44-40 3 years ago, I knew that it was a rifle cartridge & have loaded 'em with rifle primers.  Since the only firearm I own in the .44-40 is an AWA Lightning used in WB, they've worked fine.  They've always "felt" flush as I check them before loading... But, after reading this thread, I went & checked, yep, my rifle primers range from flush to .012" proud.  Checked some once or twice fired brass I just cleaned yesterday, (wet tumbled with pins, so very clean primer pockets & they range from .120" to .130" in depth.  In a sample of 35 rounds with all measurements taken against the side of the primer pocket, 24 of them measured (on my dial caliper), either .120" or .119".  10 measured .123 & one measured .130.  Yep, I'll be switching to pistol primers the next time I load.  I'll keep these for single loading at the range.  Or not!:P  I may have to test some pistol primers & have a look see what they work like!

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