Federal small rifle/ pistol primers compared?

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

A friend prefers Federal small pistol MATCH primers for his rifle ammo, finding more consistent ignition than Federal small pistol standard primers.  He’s been unable to find them but another “scrounger” in my club found some Federal small rifle match primers.

 

Supposedly no dimensional difference between small pistol and small rifle primers, but some manufacturers may use a harder cup for rifle primers.  I have read that CCI states that their small pistol and small rifle primers (the standard version) are the same product.

 

As to Federal, does anyone know whether there is a difference between small pistol and small rifle?  With the match grade primers in particular?

[Captain Bill Burt]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:58 AM, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

A friend prefers Federal small pistol MATCH primers for his rifle ammo, finding more consistent ignition than Federal small pistol standard primers.  He’s been unable to find them but another “scrounger” in my club found some Federal small rifle match primers.

 

Supposedly no dimensional difference between small pistol and small rifle primers, but some manufacturers may use a harder cup for rifle primers.  I have read that CCI states that their small pistol and small rifle primers (the standard version) are the same product.

 

As to Federal, does anyone know whether there is a difference between small pistol and small rifle?  With the match grade primers in particular?

Tough crowd. Slip up even a little and you get the googly eyes.

[Jim Brown]

Large rifle is slightly deeper than large pistol.

Small rifle and pistol are the same size. However, loading manuals recommend not using rifle in pistol

[Ranger Dan]

Some loading manuals recommend not to use small pistol primers in ammo used in semi auto rifle ammo due to the floating firing pin in the AR style rifles.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Having reloaded for CAS commercially for almost 20 years.

 

Small pistol and small rifle primers have the same dimensions.

 

Small pistol primers are thinner than Small rifle primers making SRP a little harder.

Small Magnum Pistol primers are the same cup as the Small Rifle Primers.

Small Magnum Rifle primers a a little thicker than Small Rifle Primers.

 

Small Magnum Pistol Primers and Small Rifle Primers are the same just packaged differently.

 

Small Pistol Primers not recommended for rifle.

Small Magnum Pistol Primers do not have that under their specs.

 

CCI primers are not harder than other primers.

That issue changed several years ago when CCI was bought by one of the other primer manufacturers.

 

[Ranger Dan]

14 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

CCI primers are not harder than another primer.

That issue changed several years ago when CCI was bought by one of the other primer manufacturers.

There are still a lot of older stock CCI primers out there. The older stock have the dark blue packaging.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I stand correct on that!  Sorry about the incorrect information.

[Texas Maverick]

46 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Having reloaded for CAS commercially for almost 20 years.

 

Small pistol and small rifle primers have the same dimensions.

 

Small pistol primers are thinner than Small rifle primers making SRP a little harder.

Small Magnum Pistol primers are the same cup as the Small Rifle Primers.

Small Magnum Rifle primers a a little thicker than Small Rifle Primers.

 

Small Magnum Pistol Primers and Small Rifle Primers are the same just packaged differently.

 

Small Pistol Primers not recommended for rifle.

Small Magnum Pistol Primers do not have that under their specs.

 

CCI primers are not harder than another primer.

That issue changed several years ago when CCI was bought by one of the other primer manufacturers.

 

I take it you are referring to rifles that don't shoot the same bullet we do in CAS. I shoot my 38 loads in both my revolvers and rifles. I don't make any distinction between the two types of firearms when loading my reloads. I use SPP or SMPP depending on what I can find and load them with the same recipe. 

 

Thanks for all the other info. I have saved it for future reference.

 

Texas Maverick

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

My understanding is that small rifle primers are a bit deeper than small pistol primers and may not seat fully depending upon pocket depth.

SP and SR are dimensionally identical in all ways.

LR is taller than LP.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Texas Maverick, cas rifles are pistol caliber.

But primers are listed as pistol or rifle primers.

Rifle primers from manufacturers are rated for rifle calibers and not pistol calibers.

The information is that small rifle primers are the same spec as small pistol magnum primers.

Small magnum rifle primers are much harder and more pressure primers than standard rifle primers.

 

You use SPP, SPMP and you can add SRP if you like.

It just gives one more option when primers are hard to find.

Years ago, SRP where cheaper than the SPMP and worth looking for.

[J.D. Daily]

4 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

Some loading manuals recommend not to use small pistol primers in ammo used in semi auto rifle ammo due to the floating firing pin in the AR style rifles.

Replace the OEM steel firing pin with a Titanium.  That is what some 1911 mfg's did to pass CA's safe handgun drop test.  Others added a firing pin block to their actions.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, J.D. Daily said:

Replace the OEM steel firing pin with a Titanium.  That is what some 1911 mfg's did to pass CA's safe handgun drop test.  Others added a firing pin block to their actions.

Don't 'fix' what ain't broke. 

Use the correct components in your loads.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

5 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

There are still a lot of older stock CCI primers out there. The older stock have the dark blue packaging.

These pistol primers are old rifle are new. 
 

Randy 

 

[J.D. Daily]

Except for 100 Miwall 223 Remington reloads I have only fired factory new in my Colt Sporter & three other AR-15's.  I expect that only 5.56x45 cartridges have mil spec SRP's.  I bought several thousands of 223 & 5.56 in the years between 2015 & 2020 when there when when buying in 1000 round case prices were as low as 23 cents per round of 55 grain FMJ.  For 22LR I started buying when unit price reached 7 cents for 1000 round or higher lots.  I stopped it 2019 when I had 25k.  In 2019 3.5 cents ea. is what I paid including shipping.  The reason I bought factory new 223/556 is the cost of primer, powder & bullet was not enough less than factory ammo.  I have more than enough brass, >4000.  When I run out of my 223/556 I'll set-up my XL650 to make a few thousand using SRP's.

P.S. I installed the titanium firing pin because, I read that it is possible for a M-16 & M-4 to slam fire in auto when firing 223.  With the Echo II trigger in binary it is very hard to control the total number of rounds fired.  You have to force the butt hard into your shoulder & lean forward.  Note: the installation directions recommended that the light buffer weights be replaced by tungsten weights which I did.

[Captain Bill Burt]

So of my match guns reliably fire Federal Magnum SPP they should reliably fire Federal SRP?

 

I have 5,000 SRP I bought a while back. I don’t shoot much 556, so the 10k rounds I have may outlast me.

[Texas Jack Black]

 Shoot them they work in all my competition guns for sass and I have light hammer springs and no issues.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

25 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So of my match guns reliably fire Federal Magnum SPP they should reliably fire Federal SRP?

 

I have 5,000 SRP I bought a while back. I don’t shoot much 556, so the 10k rounds I have may outlast me.

One way to find out 

I would like to hear your findings.

SRP will have just a bit harder cup.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So of my match guns reliably fire Federal Magnum SPP they should reliably fire Federal SRP?

 

I have 5,000 SRP I bought a while back. I don’t shoot much 556, so the 10k rounds I have may outlast me.

I just changed to a heavier spring in my new rifle and I was testing it with the primers in the picture above. I primed an empty case with one of the old CCI pistol primers and it fired so I tried a CCI rifle primer and it fired also. I’m going to load 100 ((actually 99) with the rifle primers and try to test them in my match guns Saturday.

 

 Randy 

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

22 hours ago, Jim Brown said:

Large rifle is slightly deeper than large pistol.

Small rifle and pistol are the same size. However, loading manuals recommend not using rifle in pistol

I've been using up Federal small rifle primers from 30 years ago that i used in Benchrest. I've had absolutely no problems.

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I’d be interested to see the results of testing.

 

My friend ended up ordering Federal small pistol match primers from Natchez.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'll load up a hundred or so and put them in Sharyn's ammo.  Of course I won't tell her so we'll get unbiased feedback.

[Ranger Dan]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'll load up a hundred or so and put them in Sharyn's ammo.  Of course I won't tell her so we'll get unbiased feedback.

This will only work once. Don't ask how I know 

[Null N. Void]

During the worst part of the shortage, I was able to get some CCI small rifle primers.  I used those in my rifle for practice and local matches.  There were no issues.

[watab kid]

ive loaded both - small R/P and large R/P just to see , they worked fine , it was the shortage era , it was also mid summer and ive not used them in cold weather , i had no problems with my guns , your mileage may be different , i dont recommend nor suggest its optional , ill just say it got me thru , 

 

now im good with what i need - just - hope things get better as we go forward , im a bit tired of the shortages then elevated prices , its contrived and predictable to the point we know the outcome , i hope they dont drive all of their clientele away in their efforts to raise prices 

[Palmetto Traveller]

Corpus I've been using CCI 400 Small Rifle and Federal 200s for quite a while now. I'm shooting Spurs OMV 38s for the pistols and my regular main match Uberti '73 .

The only issue I've had was the Federal 200s would occasionally ftf but based upon advice from Scarlett that you have to make sure the 200s are firmly seated my issue ceased. The CCI 400s have always performed without issue.

[Pb Mark]

These are the SAAMI specifications for both primers and primer pockets.

[WOODFOX , sass#34179]

Are Match primers softer than regular primers ? I loaded some federal match large pistol primers the other night and the cup seemed easy to put a mark or slight dent in them .

  Woodfox

[Pb Mark]

If this link works, it has detailed primer differences information beyond the scope of my typing ability or memory. 

 

Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications (sksboards.com)

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:03 PM, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I just changed to a heavier spring in my new rifle and I was testing it with the primers in the picture above. I primed an empty case with one of the old CCI pistol primers and it fired so I tried a CCI rifle primer and it fired also. I’m going to load 100 ((actually 99) with the rifle primers and try to test them in my match guns Saturday.

 

 Randy 

I didn’t have time to do much testing but I ran 10 rounds through my rifle and had 1 FTF, I ran 5 rounds each through my Shotgun Boogie short-stroked pistols and they all fired. I know that isn’t much testing but I think anyone running stock guns should be able to use small rifle primers if that is all you can find. Right now I’m buying any primers I can find locally even some CCI Large Rifle Magnum primers. I had no use for them but was able to trade them to a Cowboy who shoots Long Range  for some small pistol primers. 
 

Randy

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:10 PM, WOODFOX , sass#34179 said:

Are Match primers softer than regular primers ?

My friend believes so, based on FTFs in his rifle with Federal small pistol primers, and good ignition using Federal SP Match.  He’s pretty attentive to technical stuff.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:50 AM, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

My friend believes so, based on FTFs in his rifle with Federal small pistol primers, and good ignition using Federal SP Match.  He’s pretty attentive to technical stuff.

According to what I’ve been told in the past and the link by Pb Mark above the cups are the same the difference is in speed of production and QC?

 

 Randy 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

According to what I’ve been told in the past and the link by Pb Mark above the cups are the same the difference is in speed of production and QC?

 

 Randy 

I’ve heard that, too.

 

My friend’s experience is anecdotal.  A larger sampling might tell a different story.  That’s why I posted.

 

I have seen some instances in which someone went to the trouble and expense to test some assumptions.  An example would be a comparison of velocity between small pistol and large pistol primer .45 ACP ammo, or the difference between standard and magnum primers of the same brand and type.  At times the data confirms the assumption, sometimes it serves as a “myth buster”.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:55 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'll load up a hundred or so and put them in Sharyn's ammo.  Of course I won't tell her so we'll get unbiased feedback.

Any updates, or are you sleeping on the porch now? 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Still trying to get the front door unlocked.  Seems my key doesn't work.