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Winchester WLP Primers & Case Pressure Conundrum


Pengfire

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Hi Everyone,

 

I’ve recently been helping a new pard get involved in this great activity - from reloading his own (on my machines) to getting properly outfitted - and on Saturday we went to the range with fresh reloads and his new revolvers (a pair of Uberti 1860 Transitions in 45 Colt).  Upon firing the first few rounds, we noticed that the cylinder was dragging a bit and, after emptying it, we could see that some of the fired primers had backed out and were rubbing against a small machining step on the recoil shield, just ahead of the firing pin hole.  Same for both guns.  That step needs to be smoothed out - I’ll take care of that - but I was surprised by what I would consider to be signs of low pressure since this was a load I’d been using for years with no issues.  I then remembered that we switched to the hotter Winchester WLP primers for this batch so that’s the variable which I then assumed was causing the issue.  Here’s the rub; I usually get some soot deposit on the case mouth due to the low pressure burn but these cases were CLEAN!  Obviously, there was a good seal in the cylinder which usually indicates more pressure, not less.

 

Alright, given that these were his new guns with a number of potentially different variables, I tried out my 1873 Piettas with the fresh ammo.  Same result - a couple of backed-out primers but no soot.  I then tried some rounds that I had loaded with CCI primers a few months back in both guns and got consistent results - sooty but with no primer issues.  I then tried both loads in two different rifles (a Chaparral 1866 and Uberti 1866) with similar results; CCI’s sooty, WLP’s clean (but no obvious signs of backing out in this case).  Accuracy was good (enough) in all firearms and I couldn’t tell which rounds were which by felt recoil, sound or flash.

 

Some additional background:

 

Powder:  700-X, 4.3 Gr.

Cases:  various, previously fired more than twice, wet tumbled and dried

Bullet:  200 Gr. cast, around 30-1 from Accurate Mold 45-180P

 

I’m going to load a few more of each, checking for charge weights, primer seating pressure, OAL, etc. but thought I’d throw it out there to see if anyone had any ideas or similar experience.  Yes, I can stop using the Winchesters (these unplated ones tend to hang up in my press anyhow so that’s another post) but I’ve got a pile of them and primers are almost impossible to find in Canada these days…

 

 

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Interesting problem.  The charge weight appears to be too light, according to Hodgdon's web site when using Winchester primers.  That may be the variable.  I would try loading to, at least, the minimum, which is 5 grains of 700X and see the results.  Also, if you're shooting in cold weather, that may have an effect on velocity.

 

I had a problem with high primers in one pistol last year when using my regular loads. It turned out the firing pin bushing had cme loose and the spent primer ended up locking up the pistol.  That was relatively easy to solve with the help of Cholla, who diagnosed the problem.

 

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There is no need to polish or grind on the recoil shield.  DON'T.  This is a too-light load when using the Winchester primers, the load is not generating enough pressure to re-seat the primers that get shoved slightly out of case when firing the round, but then the case does not release from the cylinder walls and recoil normally into the recoil shield.

 

Polishing the walls of the cylinders could help, to allow the cases to recoil fast enough to re-seat primers.  But first you need to increase the powder weight a little to get to minimum recommended charges.   Some guns are not subject to this problem, others with rough cylinders can be. 

 

If the shooter really NEEDS very light loads, then the best solution with the largest caliber revolvers is to step down to the Cowboy 45 Special cases, which are much smaller internal volume and will allow a lighter powder weight to re-seat primers with light loads.

 

good luck, GJ

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Thanks for the replies and helpful advice everyone.  I certainly won’t be using that combination of powder charge and primer going forward.
 

Can anyone comment on the apparent contradiction between getting good case seal (a sign of sufficient pressure) but set back primers (a sign of insufficient pressure)?  I had hoped that using Winchester primers, which are supposedly hotter than CCI’s, would have helped my case sooting issue somewhat since the load has worked perfectly for me otherwise for years.

 

 

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Agreed. Speer #14 is showing 5.9 grains for a 200-grain bullet

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It's not a primer issue. Use more powder. When loading lite loads intermittent stuff happens, I've seen more issues with shooters attempting to download ammo than anything else in 27 years of shooting CAS. Pretty much makes for a bad day at the range. Very easy to adjust the powder measure.

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15 hours ago, Pengfire said:

Can anyone comment on the apparent contradiction between getting good case seal (a sign of sufficient pressure) but set back primers (a sign of insufficient pressure)?

 

Those two required pressure levels are not necessarily the same pressure!   And pressure "SIGNS" are indicators, hints, symptoms.  They are not precise measurements.  And no two revolvers react exactly the same, because they are not machined exactly the same.

 

Can be several thing contributing to this.

Already mentioned rough cylinder walls.  Perhaps factory did not get a good final reaming job on the cylinders.   If that happens, the case seals tight against the rough walls of the chambers.  Gas often won't leak back onto case walls, but also the case will not recoil in cylinder as it should to push primer back flush into pocket (which as soon as the priming compound fires off it pushes out most cartridge cases, stopping when the primer hits the recoil shield (or bolt face on rifles)).

 

Could be the Win primers are snugger fit in the pocket, and although CCI primers reset fine, the Winchester won't.

 

Both of these conditions and all other known reasons for high primers AFTER FIRING really get solved by raising the chamber pressure by using either a TIGHTER CRIMP or MORE POWDER, or both.

 

As mentioned by Assassin, this is a common problem in SASS matches!  It is not like we have not seen this before!

 

good luck, GJ

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The .45 Colt case is the hardest case to download to light recoil which is used in cowboy shooting.  GREAT BIG case designed for enough black powder and lead to stop a horse in mid stride.   Current lack of a really fluffy smokeless powder to help fill that case - Trail Boss hasn't been made for years and won't be made at all this year either.  Powder companies making higher energy-density powders designed to fit in very small semi-auto pistol cases (like the trendy new 22, 5.7, 30 and 32 caliber cartridges).

 

That is why lots of folks downloading .45 Colt step down to a smaller case - .45 Schofield or better yet Cowboy .45 Special.   (Adirondack Jack was no one's fool! Hat's off!)

 

good luck, GJ

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I've chased my share of anomalies with lighter than book loads. 

 

I find it odd that the primer would not re-seat. I've always found that if there was enough pressure to get the bullet out of the barrel, the primers would re-seat. 

 

However, in order to be able to evaluate my under the starting loads, I needed to run them over a chronograph. IMHO it is the only way to know if the ignition is consistent and if you are getting the velocities you want. 

I'll share a bit of my theory on the primer backing out phenomenon I did some testing a few years back and posted my observations here, but that post will be way down the list and hard to search for. Basically I was looking into the issue with a squib load, one with no powder in the case. Invariably the primer would back out and lock up the cylinder. So, I primed a case and fired it in my revolver, no bullet, no powder, and the primer backed out and locked up the cylinder. 

I concluded that the flash hole was small enough to contain sufficient pressure to push the primer back against the frame. 

I increased the flash hole diameter in small increments, and my assumption was correct. At a certain size the primer would not back out. 

 

This proved to me that when fired, at the instant the primer explodes, it backs out, then the pressure in the case(chamber) when the powder ignites, would push the case back, seating the primer. 

For your scenario, I'm thinking that because the bullet left the barrel, there should have been sufficient pressure to re-seat the primer. But something was preventing the case from moving back. The hint being that there was no soot on the walls of the case. At this point my brain is just making smoke, somethings just aren't making sense. 

 

I'd try and duplicate your load, but the lightest bullet I have is a 230, or possible a 200, I think I have a 200 mold. However it may be prudent to abandon that load, I'm assuming that you have other options. 

BB    

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You learn something new everyday. I started out reloading for semi-auto pistols and I always just assumed that Min Book Load was the bare minimum needed to get the typical off the shelf gun to cycle the slide reliably. Although thinking about it now I guess this wouldn't apply to 45 colt since I'm not aware of any semi-autos chambered in 45 colt, so if one does exist it's not common at all. 

 

Anyway, I've been messing around in uncharted territory (I'm sure someone has done it before me, but no book data) with loading the 130gr Barnstormers in the Cowboy 45 Special cases using Alliant Promo. Reading Big Boston's post about flash hole size has me wondering if increasing the flash hole size would give me a more consistent and full powder burn. I still get a few flakes of powder out of the cases when I'm at the unloading table. I've only ever shot this load in Sub-Freezing temperatures though. I expect it to run a bit hotter and burn better in the hot summer months. 

 

I haven't had any issues with primers backing out though. I'm using Federal primers and in the 20 degree weather these 130gr bullets averaged 600 fps for 6 shots out of a 5.5" barrel. I'm safely above minimum power factor so maybe I'm not loaded as light as some guys are going when they have issues. 

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1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

I concluded that the flash hole was small enough to contain sufficient pressure to push the primer back against the frame. 

I increased the flash hole diameter in small increments, and my assumption was correct. At a certain size the primer would not back out. 

 

This proved to me that when fired, at the instant the primer explodes, it backs out, then the pressure in the case(chamber) when the powder ignites, would push the case back, seating the primer. 


BB    

 

How do you think blank cartridges are made?

Enlarged priming hole is standard so that the primer won’t back out.

 

Some of the lead free factory loads use enlarged primer pockets too.

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Not a good idea to enlarge flash hole on any case where you (or some other shooter) may load the case with standard pressure loads.  The large flash hole then blows primers out of pockets and causes lots of problems.

 

Unless you mark the cases as for blanks only, leave the flash holes alone please.   I don't want to have to gauge flash holes on every piece of brass I find!

 

good luck, GJ

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I believe blanks and those used for wax bullets are made differently. If I remembering correctly they use a .140 flash hole and they specifically warn not to use them with real bullets. 

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30 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Not a good idea to enlarge flash hole on any case where you (or some other shooter) may load the case with standard pressure loads.  The large flash hole then blows primers out of pockets and causes lots of problems.

 

Unless you mark the cases as for blanks only, leave the flash holes alone please. 

 

good luck, GJ

Ditto on Garrison Joes words. Just cause it’s on the internet doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good plan of action!

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2 hours ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

Some of the lead free factory loads use enlarged primer pockets too.

I doubt that.  Never heard or seen that.

Got an example? 

GJ

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40 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I doubt that.  Never heard or seen that.

Got an example? 

GJ

From American Handgunner magazine:

 

”I asked Fiocchi if their lead-free primers required special cases with enlarged flash holes (as seen with some factory ammo with lead-free primers), or if they required adjustments in the load data. Fiocchi replied there was no special requirement for flash hole size.”


https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/lead-free-pistol-primers/

 

I couldn’t find the pics on the web that I remember seeing but the AH article makes reference to it.

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3 hours ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

 

How do you think blank cartridges are made?

Enlarged priming hole is standard so that the primer won’t back out.

 

Some of the lead free factory loads use enlarged primer pockets too.

Blanks have no PSI to speak of and use some form of BP. 

Like comparing apples to onions :rolleyes:

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A veritable treasure trove of knowledge and experience on here - most excellent!  Yes, this was a relatively soft load (under manufacturer’s recommended minimum as many have stated) that I developed specifically to take advantage of a copious amount of 700-X and CCI 300 primers that I got a smoking deal on.  It was the smallest charge that would meter consistently, go bang every time and work in all my shooting irons.  Never had a misfire but I sure missed a few targets along the way in my rush towards greatness.  Clocks in around 575 fps in my 4.75” Piettas and about 800 fps in the 20” rifles (Marlin, Chaparral and Ubertis).  Unsurprisingly, there’s quite a velocity spread so I wouldn’t use it for anything long range but for punching steel, it’s been very good.  Admittedly, I could just have stayed with the minimum recommended charge but where’s the fun in that?  That being said, I will not be using this combination of powder charge and primer going forward.

 

Since I’m getting fairly consistent results between different guns - some pushed out primers and no soot - I’m going to discount the particular firearm as being the main culprit here for now.  Given what everyone has said, and a lot of head scratching, here’s what I think is happening:

 

My original load seems consistent in operation - it goes bang, hits where I point it, no primer issues or “off feeling” rounds and the cases drop right out of the cylinder - but leaves sooty cases, implying insufficient expansion of the case.  Too little expansion, too little chamber wall friction; the case and bullet part company in opposite directions and the internal pressure pushes the case head towards the recoil shield with enthusiasm.  This ensures the primer stays/gets seated (as per Big Boston) and, except for less-than-stellar velocity spreads and some extra chamber cleaning, everything works.  
 

Switching to the almost-universally-accepted “hotter” Winchester primers (I don’t mean to open that debate, it was simply another great deal I got from last year) could be improving the combustion efficiency and develops a little more pressure or maintains it a little longer; enough to seal the case but perhaps not enough to drive it backwards against the recoil shield and reseat the primer.  It could simply be one of those pressure levels right where cylinder wall friction exceeds case momentum - except for the primer (as alluded to by Garrison Joe).

 

I’ll load a few more with Winchesters and various primers and then try to get out and chrony them some time soon.  This dysfunctional combo might, strangely, be a little more consistent velocity-wise but is obviously too unreliable for regular use;  I was really just curious about what fellow gunslingers might have experienced.
 

Once again, many thanks to everyone on here for your insights.

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6 hours ago, Pengfire said:

A veritable treasure trove of knowledge and experience on here - most excellent!  Yes, this was a relatively soft load (under manufacturer’s recommended minimum as many have stated) that I developed specifically to take advantage of a copious amount of 700-X and CCI 300 primers that I got a smoking deal on.  It was the smallest charge that would meter consistently, go bang every time and work in all my shooting irons.  Never had a misfire but I sure missed a few targets along the way in my rush towards greatness.  Clocks in around 575 fps in my 4.75” Piettas and about 800 fps in the 20” rifles (Marlin, Chaparral and Ubertis).  Unsurprisingly, there’s quite a velocity spread so I wouldn’t use it for anything long range but for punching steel, it’s been very good.  Admittedly, I could just have stayed with the minimum recommended charge but where’s the fun in that?  That being said, I will not be using this combination of powder charge and primer going forward.

 

Since I’m getting fairly consistent results between different guns - some pushed out primers and no soot - I’m going to discount the particular firearm as being the main culprit here for now.  Given what everyone has said, and a lot of head scratching, here’s what I think is happening:

 

My original load seems consistent in operation - it goes bang, hits where I point it, no primer issues or “off feeling” rounds and the cases drop right out of the cylinder - but leaves sooty cases, implying insufficient expansion of the case.  Too little expansion, too little chamber wall friction; the case and bullet part company in opposite directions and the internal pressure pushes the case head towards the recoil shield with enthusiasm.  This ensures the primer stays/gets seated (as per Big Boston) and, except for less-than-stellar velocity spreads and some extra chamber cleaning, everything works.  
 

Switching to the almost-universally-accepted “hotter” Winchester primers (I don’t mean to open that debate, it was simply another great deal I got from last year) could be improving the combustion efficiency and develops a little more pressure or maintains it a little longer; enough to seal the case but perhaps not enough to drive it backwards against the recoil shield and reseat the primer.  It could simply be one of those pressure levels right where cylinder wall friction exceeds case momentum - except for the primer (as alluded to by Garrison Joe).

 

I’ll load a few more with Winchesters and various primers and then try to get out and chrony them some time soon.  This dysfunctional combo might, strangely, be a little more consistent velocity-wise but is obviously too unreliable for regular use;  I was really just curious about what fellow gunslingers might have experienced.
 

Once again, many thanks to everyone on here for your insights.

Up your load to 5.0gn, as per the published minimum by the powder maker for you caliber and bullet weight. 

Don't be DUMB. ;)

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8 hours ago, Pengfire said:

A veritable treasure trove of knowledge and experience on here - most excellent!  Yes, this was a relatively soft load (under manufacturer’s recommended minimum as many have stated) that I developed specifically to take advantage of a copious amount of 700-X and CCI 300 primers that I got a smoking deal on.  It was the smallest charge that would meter consistently, go bang every time and work in all my shooting irons.  Never had a misfire but I sure missed a few targets along the way in my rush towards greatness.  Clocks in around 575 fps in my 4.75” Piettas and about 800 fps in the 20” rifles (Marlin, Chaparral and Ubertis).  Unsurprisingly, there’s quite a velocity spread so I wouldn’t use it for anything long range but for punching steel, it’s been very good.  Admittedly, I could just have stayed with the minimum recommended charge but where’s the fun in that?  That being said, I will not be using this combination of powder charge and primer going forward.

 

Since I’m getting fairly consistent results between different guns - some pushed out primers and no soot - I’m going to discount the particular firearm as being the main culprit here for now.  Given what everyone has said, and a lot of head scratching, here’s what I think is happening:

 

My original load seems consistent in operation - it goes bang, hits where I point it, no primer issues or “off feeling” rounds and the cases drop right out of the cylinder - but leaves sooty cases, implying insufficient expansion of the case.  Too little expansion, too little chamber wall friction; the case and bullet part company in opposite directions and the internal pressure pushes the case head towards the recoil shield with enthusiasm.  This ensures the primer stays/gets seated (as per Big Boston) and, except for less-than-stellar velocity spreads and some extra chamber cleaning, everything works.  
 

Switching to the almost-universally-accepted “hotter” Winchester primers (I don’t mean to open that debate, it was simply another great deal I got from last year) could be improving the combustion efficiency and develops a little more pressure or maintains it a little longer; enough to seal the case but perhaps not enough to drive it backwards against the recoil shield and reseat the primer.  It could simply be one of those pressure levels right where cylinder wall friction exceeds case momentum - except for the primer (as alluded to by Garrison Joe).

 

I’ll load a few more with Winchesters and various primers and then try to get out and chrony them some time soon.  This dysfunctional combo might, strangely, be a little more consistent velocity-wise but is obviously too unreliable for regular use;  I was really just curious about what fellow gunslingers might have experienced.
 

Once again, many thanks to everyone on here for your insights.

 

Velocities all over the map is a clear warning sign that your load is unstable. I'm betting that the reason you are not getting blow by when using magnum primers is because of potentially dangerous pressure spikes. You know the kind that cause firearms to rapidly disassemble themselves. 

 

There is no way a proper load that light would cause a 45 colt case to completely seal the chamber. 

 

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