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44-40 crimp


Rusty Cuff

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What crimp works best for the 44-40? Got my guns, brass, primers, both smoke and smokeless powder. I load on a Dillon 650, but I also have a Rock Chucker press. All I have ever reloaded before was 38’s. 
 

Thanks, Rusty Cuffs

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Any 3 die set is good, but I think Lee is the best.   I really like the powder through the expander die feature.

That being said, no matter which kind of dies you get, only use the third one to seat.  Don't try to use it to seat and crimp like you do with .38's.   Rather, get a Lee Factory Crimp Die to do the crimping.

You'll be much happier if you do.

 

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25 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Any 3 die set is good, but I think Lee is the best.   I really like the powder through the expander die feature.

That being said, no matter which kind of dies you get, only use the third one to seat.  Don't try to use it to seat and crimp like you do with .38's.   Rather, get a Lee Factory Crimp Die to do the crimping.

You'll be much happier if you do.

 

 

That is what I use also, last loading step, a LEE Factory Crimp Die.

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Just about everything I read about loading .44-40 recommended seating and crimping in separate steps.  That may well be good advice in general.

 

I purchased RCBS Cowboy Dies (a traditional three die set) and a Lee Factory Crimp Die from a friend who had sold his only .44-40 firearm.  I also purchased a Redding Profile Crimp Die which is supposed to be really good.

 

After some experimentation I found that seating and crimping in one station produced ammo that chambered well in my rifle.

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You want a 4 die set where seating and crimping are separate steps. Many people use a 3 die set and adjust the seat/crimp die so that it will only seat the bullet but not crimp the case. They use either a Lee factory crimp die or a Redding profile crimp die. 

Next question is what size bullets you will be using? Traditionally the 44-40 bullet diameter was .427 however some modern reproductions have .430 barrels. ( same diameter as .44 Special/.44 Magnum) This can cause seating and crimping problems.

BTW You can shoot .427 bullets in .430 barrels but you may have issues with leading.

 

I have two 44 WCF rifles that like .430 bullets. I solved the problem by using a .44 Spcl/mag belling/powder die and modified a .44 Spcl/mag crimp die to work with 44-40 cases. Modifying the die was not all that hard it just took several hours with a carbide hone to enlarge the base of the die to accept the larger diameter case. 

 

Unlike 38 specials you cannot rely on the sizing and belling dies to straighten bent case mouths. You need a tapered mandrel of some sort to make the neck round before you resize it. Otherwise the necks tend to wrinkle when seating the bullet.

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When I load using BP I have never had a problem with crimping the bullets. I do use the RCBS cowboy dies on a Dillon 550. But when I have loaded smokeless I had problems with bullets collapsing in the rifle and jamming the gun,when using a lee factory crimp die. I do use the lee crimp die on other calibers with no issues. But I now use the Redding profile crimp die on  the 44-40 and that seemed to solve the problem.

 

Hochbauer

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For pistols, I have a 1st Gen (Antique) and 3rd Gen Colt. an Uberti clone, A S&W NM3 antique, Merwin & Hulbert antique, .44-40 Conversion cylinders for 2 Colt Sheriff's and a Buntline that are nominally .44 Specials, A Colt 1878 antique and a S&W Model 3 antique.  

For rifles, I have an early Navy Arms Uberti 66. a more contemporary Uberti Henry, an AWA Lightning, a Colt Lightning and an Uberti 73.  I've never slugged anything, but I know some of the stuff has .427" bores and others have .429's

I run .428" soft lead bullets in everything in .44-40 and have no problems with anything.

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I've used and tried many including Lee. When I can, it's always the Redding profile crimp. It's the best. Use for smokeless and black.

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If you know how to set up a seater/crimp die, by all means use it.  However, if you never check brass length before running 'em thru a progressive,  do as suggested above and do the crimping in separate steps.  Myself, I learned how to load on a single stage press and fewer steps is mo' betta' in my book.  But, then I also only load in batches of 500 or more... I'm only feeding one 44WCF rifle, I don't bother to load after every match, where I'm only loading 120 rounds, so maybe the extra step is unimportant!  :o  I was told all the horror stories about loading 44WCF, and find that using a little care and not rushing works wonders ...  My RCBS Cowboy dies on the Dillon work great.  

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I have had the best luck with the Redding crimp die, the key to loading and crimping the 44-40 is make sure the case length is ALWAYS the same in each case. SCJ

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Howdy Rusty.  My opinion is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;)  If they chamber with no problems in your guns and shoot fine, then great.  But as Griff mentioned, if you run into any brass that is longer than what you set up for, you might get a bulge at the crimp.  I would measure a random bunch of brass, and set the seat/crimp die for the longest casing I could find.   Just be sure the OAL doesn't get over 1.6" or your rifle will complain.

 

As for myself, I've never measured brass length, and I use the Lee FCD.   :)  

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14 hours ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

 

That is what I use also, last loading step, a LEE Factory Crimp Die.

This ^^^^^^

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I guess I am a little different.  Using a 550, position 1 has a Lee sizing, decapping die.  Position 2 is a Lee belling, through powder die.  Position 3 has a RCBS seating, crimping die.  Position 4 has an RCBS sizing die with the decapping pin removed.

 

I understand I should be able to skip the last step, but am unable to get it right.  I have tried to use a separate seating in P3 and a Lee Factory Crimp die in P4, but to no avail.

 

My setup produces cartridges that feed and go bang.  That's my story and I am sticking to it.

 

Chancy

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Another vote for the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  Works like a charm.  I've never used or seen the results of the Redding doodad, but I expect it's fine too if you're flush with cash.  We're not building guided missiles here.  Good enough is really good enough.  

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1 hour ago, Major Hazzard, SASS #23254 said:

We're not building guided missiles here.  Good enough is really good enough.  

 

Well, I HAVE used both the Lee and the Redding.

 

The Lee FCD die just was NOT good enough to protect my crimping process from bulging the case neck on about 10% of my 44-40 loads, and could not be adjusted to give a real tight crimp without deforming the crimp area.   The Redding die worked real well at fully eliminating bulged case necks, and gave a tighter crimp as well which improved my BP load combustion. The Lee left some of my reloads that would not chamber in my Uberti 73.

 

Tighter crimp was determined by testing the amount of force needed to pull a loaded slug out of the case.   Significantly tighter crimps with Redding die. 

 

good luck, GJ

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I was have occasional issues with a certain brand of brass not wanting to feed due to inconsistent crimp from random case thickness. I went to crimping as a separate step using the Redding profile crimp die and the issue has completely been eliminated. 

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8 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Well, I HAVE used both the Lee and the Redding.

 

The Lee FCD die just was NOT good enough to protect my crimping process from bulging the case neck on about 10% of my 44-40 loads, and could not be adjusted to give a real tight crimp without deforming the crimp area.   The Redding die worked real well at fully eliminating bulged case necks, and gave a tighter crimp as well which improved my BP load combustion. The Lee left some of my reloads that would not chamber in my Uberti 73.

 

Tighter crimp was determined by testing the amount of force needed to pull a loaded slug out of the case.   Significantly tighter crimps with Redding die. 

 

good luck, GJ

Howdy Joe, I've had just the opposite experience. I bought a Redding PCD for .44-40, but can't get a good crimp. When I dial the die down, for a better crimp, it shoves the bullet deeper into the case than when it left the seating die which is past the crimp groove. That leads to bulged and crumpled cases. I can see a ring where the die contacts the bullet. If I back off the die, the crimp is minimal. I'm making tiny changes in the die, but the line between too much and too little is incredibly small and for me, impossible to find.

 

I'm not crazy about the Lee FCD, but it works.

 

Data: Press is a Hornady LNL AP, RCBS Cowboy dies, Starline cases, 200 gr bullet from Missouri Bullet (uncoated), Bullets by Scarlett (coated), Rim Rock Bullets, (uncoated). Bullets are all .428.

 

Do you have any recommendations I can try?

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Sounds like the Redding is hitting something on the ogive of the bullet.   I'd buy a hundred Truncated Cone slugs and try with a nose that "gets out of the way" of the die part that pushes the bullet deeper in case.  But then, I load with the RCBS 200 grain "cowboy" RNFP slug sized to 0.429, and don't get any contact with the nose of the bullet (which is real soft, 6 BN, and takes a mark from a die real easy). That is a pretty wide meplat on that bullet.   So, not really sure what you are running into. It may be that the crimp ring is machined wrong (too small diameter) on your die.

 

good luck, GJ

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28 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Howdy Joe, I've had just the opposite experience. I bought a Redding PCD for .44-40, but can't get a good crimp. When I dial the die down, for a better crimp, it shoves the bullet deeper into the case than when it left the seating die which is past the crimp groove. That leads to bulged and crumpled cases. I can see a ring where the die contacts the bullet. If I back off the die, the crimp is minimal. I'm making tiny changes in the die, but the line between too much and too little is incredibly small and for me, impossible to find.

 

I'm not crazy about the Lee FCD, but it works.

 

Data: Press is a Hornady LNL AP, RCBS Cowboy dies, Starline cases, 200 gr bullet from Missouri Bullet (uncoated), Bullets by Scarlett (coated), Rim Rock Bullets, (uncoated). Bullets are all .428.

 

Do you have any recommendations I can try?


I had similar experience with the Redding die when I began loading .44-40. The barrel of my Uberti 1873 slugged at .429 so I was using .430 sized 200gr bullets which I use for .44 Special. When I lowered the Redding Profile Crimp die it would actually pull the bullet from the case before it would apply a crimp. 
 

I decided to size those bullets down to .427 and see what happened. After sizing the bullets the Redding Profile Crimp die produced an excellent crimp and no longer pulls the bullets.
 

I’ve since shot them through my Uberti and they’re accurate enough for SASS distances and I don’t feel like I see any significant leading. 

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Thanks, Joe.
 

It could be the machining, otherwise I’m stumped. With .428 RNFP bullets from 3 different casters, I get identical results. I’ll give Redding a call, but I’m betting I’m out of luck since I bought the die 6-7 years ago. I set it aside until this a thread popped up. 
 

I’ve too many RNFP bullets on the shelf to switch profiles. A new die would be far more economical. 
 

 

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If it were mine, I'd chuck up a cratex bit in my die grinder and peel a couple thousandths off the contact area and try again.   But, I'm re-tired.   (Sure, just got a set of four last week.)

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14 hours ago, OK Dirty Dan said:


I had similar experience with the Redding die when I began loading .44-40. The barrel of my Uberti 1873 slugged at .429 so I was using .430 sized 200gr bullets which I use for .44 Special. When I lowered the Redding Profile Crimp die it would actually pull the bullet from the case before it would apply a crimp. 
 

I decided to size those bullets down to .427 and see what happened. After sizing the bullets the Redding Profile Crimp die produced an excellent crimp and no longer pulls the bullets.
 

I’ve since shot them through my Uberti and they’re accurate enough for SASS distances and I don’t feel like I see any significant leading. 

The 44-40 Redding Profile Crimp die was not designed for 44 Magnum diameter sized bullets. You need to use at lease .428 or smaller. If the bullet does not have an exposed forward driving band, you might can get away with .429 diameter bullets.

 

Here is some information on the Redding use with the 44-40 bullets: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets/redding-profile-crimp-die

 

The crimp needed for the 44-40 is really based on the crimp groove design on the bullet. However, roll crimping can cause a slight bulge at and just below the roll crimp...hindering chambering in revolvers when using large diameter bullets. The same is for rifle use but the lever gives leverage and the cartridge is forced into the chamber with little resistance, reforming the bulge enough to fit.

LFCD
The LFCD is best used when the handoader fails to understand the crimping design for such a multifaceted cartridge bullet. It reminds me of horse shoes and handgrenades......when "close enough" just seems to work. The LFCD can be used on any crimp grooved designed bullet or any bullet designed without a crimp groove.

Roll Crimp
Some crimp dies are made for .427 bullets and can "over crimp" when used on .430 bullets. Some .429 crimp dies will hurt you trying to crimp small diameter .427" and Winchester .4255" JSP bullets...not enough crimp! Too much roll with most 44-40 brass will leave a bulge below the roll crimp as mentioned above.

Winchester never really used a hard roll crimp and what roll crimps were used are better replicated with the Redding Profile Die....both JSP and Lead bullets.

 

Redding Profile Crimp

 

The RPCD performs two crimps. 1st is the "roll crimp" is performed, and the deeper in the die is turned, the crimp turns into a "U" crimp just like factory Winchester JSP bullets. The RPCD also smooths the neck at the crimp. Some folks crimp with a roll crimp, then run the cartridge back through a RPCD to smooth the bulge back down.

The aforementioned only explains the crimp used, not the proper neck resizing for the bullet to be used.

The below photo shows two different crimps applied with the Redding Profile Crimp Die

 

78926364_567099084077593_2180765710353956864_n.thumb.jpg.fc3131fa8689e343cbeba581d2bfcd61.jpg

 


The proper 44-40 "Profile" does not use exposed foreword driving bands...the O'give starts below the crimp, not above the crimp. This was in part from being designed to sit on top of a full load of BP were such crimps were not needed. This is also what prevents neck bulges below the crimp.

 


Modern 44-40 Bullets
The most popular commercially cast bullet on the market is cast from Magma Engineering's "Cowboy" 44-40 bullet Mold. Each commercial casting manufacture calls it by their own name such as Oregon Trail's "Laser Cast" and another who calls it the "Desperado"....plus many more...as well ass other designs that are very similar. Easily seen is the exposed forward driving band as well as the bulge created just below the roll crimp. This is worse on larger diameter bullets with deeper grooves, where the loader really applies a deep crimp like a 357/44 magnum. This is the main cause for chambering issues in revolvers
945586964_EmbeddedImage(4).thumb.jpg.d1584c44782a0ec94845dbab525f4172.jpg

 

The photo below shows what happens when the Redding Profile Die is used on the wrong designed bullet used for the 44-40. This is not a 44-40 profile bullet.

The Redding Profile Die dislikes large diameter bullets with exposed foreword driving bands

1225667795_EmbeddedImage(3).thumb.jpg.83e70fba99b41c5629ac5652b4ad71e1.jpg

 

 

 



 

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Yep, the 200 grain 44 caliber Cowboy mold I use has NO driving band ahead of the crimp groove.  Ogive starts immediately at the crimp groove.  And my roll crimp ends up looking like the roll crimp on the left side of Jack's first picture.  (If it were a true taper crimp, though, the mouth would be left at same diameter as neck, no turn in.  That left side picture truly is a proper roll crimp that leaves no part of the edge of the mouth proud to catch while entering a sharp-edge chamber).

 

So, my Redding profile crimp die works well, even when I size the bullet at 0.429"  Jack's explanation of the Redding die not working well when there is a full-diameter band ahead of the crimp groove should tell you a lot about why the die won't work on some bullet profiles that are quite a bit different from what the .44-40 has historically used!   Nice job!

 

Of course, if you have soft alloy bullets, you can turn the case mouth into the ogive section above any forward driving band and not have the crimp section of the die catch on that band.

 

good luck, GJ

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Oh yes, soft lead is very forgiving.

 

The bullet on the left in the photo previously mentioned actually has no crimp groove. The case mouth is pressed into the soft lead (Accurate Mold 43-214A) creating it's own crimp groove at the exact location of the start of the o'give. Even if it did have a crimp groove (Accurate mold 43-215C), it would form the same but may have a "void" under the crimp pending the depth of the crimp groove in the bullet. The "void" is not important though....what is important is the resistance, both the crimp and the case neck. The crimp in this photo is a tad bit more harsh.

661590237_EmbeddedImage(6).jpg.267148a11a4190d4e9ecbbd420945d0d.jpg

 

 

982890486_EmbeddedImage(7).jpg.f0318dc587942203ef5a5f698b31b42a.jpg

 

 

 

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It probably should be mentioned that LEE makes two distinctly different styles of FCDs. Straight walled calibers have a cartridge max carbide sizing ring at the mouth of the die and use a sliding ring that applies the crimp. The ring lacks any bullet seating properties, therefore is sized for an optimum, or decently good applied crimp. The other type is a collet style crimper. The collet style is used for bottlenecked cartridges like the 44-40 and 38-40, (and this style is used for the rifle cartridges like 30-06 as well.) Fortunately i own more than one set of dies for 44-40, iIuse one brand for seating the bullet and another brand for crimping. From what I've seen in pictures posted online, the FCD for 44-40 is a bit rough on the case mouth. 

 

It does seem that every time I add another 44-40 to the herd, i end up tweaking the die set-up to accommodate yet another anomaly on my favorite cowboy cartridge.   

 

BB

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1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

The collet style is used for bottlenecked cartridges like the 44-40 and 38-40, (and this style is used for the rifle cartridges like 30-06 as well.) Fortunately i own more than one set of dies for 44-40, iIuse one brand for seating the bullet and another brand for crimping. From what I've seen in pictures posted online, the FCD for 44-40 is a bit rough on the case mouth. 

 

It has been my experience that when using .429 and .430 bullets, the LFCD fully crimps BEFORE the collets fully close allowing a small portion of the case mouth to squeeze in between the collets causing a "bump". This is the "weak" area on cases that have split for me. Even when used on smaller diameter bullets, a harsh crimp leaves a "crease" around the case mouth also weakening the case mouth to allow splits. 

LFCD ISSUES

 

Large diameter bullet (die has been cut for better viewing)

277596681_1202495273890786_7924066671451964214_n.thumb.jpg.f37875282b709996ed132178419216bb.jpg

 

 

.427" diameter bullet

277612286_550582452984068_1730391519103344924_n.thumb.jpg.5c0cf07f390d85da824f5bc5f4d6ee92.jpg
 

 

To be fair, the measurement of the crimp groove is important!!

 

This Accurate Molds 43-219M was specifically designed for use with the "square groove" LFCD!

78565350_2459132124142262_4414203293308289024_nA.jpg.d7d0b32c9d0960f1254cd73652471b4c.jpg

 


Crimping smokeless powder loads can be a bit finicky sometimes. This is typically why Winchester factory 44-40 loads use a cannelure on the case under the base of the bullet. Although I do not have it published, I have been able to make a cannelure using a very small pipe cutter with a rounded blade....consistency was tricky, it works...but I do not need to use it with my methods.

 

Case Cannelure Method



 

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