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44-40 1860 Henry questions


Johnny Knight

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Hi all,

Hoping to tap into the knowledge base here to become more familiar with the 1860 Henry.  Fairly new shooter, starting with 45 Colt.  Shifting over to Classic, so working up a set of Vaqueros in 44-40, since I'm looking to shoot black powder.  I've picked up an Uberti 1873 in 44-40, but haven't done anything with the rifle yet, so still in need of some action work.  In kicking around options, I'm intrigued with the 1860 Henry as an alternative to the 1873.  Figure as long as I'm going old school, might try something other than the 1873.  I know Uberti has versions out there under their own name, as well as imported through Navy Arms.  I've seen Split Rails current post for a blued gun, and have been following Major Artillery's search for a case hardened version.  I wanted to ask about the pro's and con's of the Uberti version, vs the New Original Henry's.  Are there other makers that I should be keeping an eye out for?  Any other suggestions regarding the 1860?  Recommended action work?

Thanks in advance,

Johnny

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I have 2 Uberti 1860 Henry rifles. One in 45 Colt, the other 44-40.

 

Perfectly happy with the Ubertis, no need to spend the extra $ on a Henry Henry unless you just want to do so. Them sure is purdy though!

 

Alrhough I prefer the 44-40 for BP, the 45 Colt does just fine with it. Just a little more cleaning involved keeping the 45 Colt happy.

 

 

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First, the .44-40 is a superb choice for a rifle chambering, especially if you shoot black powder.

 

I don’t own an 1860 Henry.  It is SASS-legal, of course, but some local clubs reportedly do not allow them.  That’s not true in my area but I would check around before buying one.

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Be very careful of buying the Navy Arms versions. Their parts are not interchangeable with later versions and are no longer available.

 

I have two Ubertis in 44 WCF. One 1860 and one 1866. Both are excellent shooters. They'll accept any of the aftermarket parts that a 73 will. I shoot a lot of BP in both of them and the actions stay very clean. After a match use a little moose milk or PAM on the carrier. Use a Remington Squeeg-e on the bore followed by an oiled patch. Wipe everything down and it is good to to till the next match.

Take the side plates off once a year and relube the internals. Almost zero fouling inside.  

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Hey Johnny Knight!

 

First off the 1860 is just way too cool, or at least I think it is!  They are heavy guns, but they sure do scream "Classic". I shot an untuned Uberti 1860 Henry this past year at Nationals and made it into the Top 10 of Classic Cowboy category... So they can shoot well! Have transitioned to shooting a Henry full time in 2023... We will see how that turns out..:lol:

 

Pretty much the only two versions out there are the Uberti (Italian Clones) and the American Made (Original Henry).   For the money the Italian Clones work fine, They could use some smoothing up of the internals, and the fit and finish is well ok nothing amazing.

 

Now the Original Henry... Hands down one of the prettiest fit and finish 1860 Henry's you will find, but it will cost you more $. The Stocks are beautiful and the case hardening or brass is gorgeous!  One thing they do I am not a fan of is over polish the octagon barrel edges.  A pro is it will be backed by Henry.. who will take care of any problems you would ever have with the gun.

 

I would stick with a 44-40 if you already reload for them and plan to shoot BP, it just keeps your action and what not so much cleaner.  

 

As far as tuning work, most any work that can be done to a 66/73 can be done to a Henry.  Codymatic, most all short stroke kits will work fine too.

 

Hope you get one.... Sometimes for the Classic Cowboy Showdown we have a buckle put up for the fastest Classic Shooter with a Henry! 

 

Get you a Henry and let's go shooting!

 

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43 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Be very careful of buying the Navy Arms versions. Their parts are not interchangeable with later versions and are no longer available....

That is true of the earliest Navy Arms 1860's, same as their early 1866's.  But later guns are regular Ubertis same as others.  If the carrier opening in the frame is 1.6" long and no notch in the front on top, it is the newer design.

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Abe,

Why would some clubs not allow them?  Haven't heard of that.

 

Dantankerous, thanks for the info on 45 Colt vis a vis 44 WCF.  Currently I've got over 2k brass of the 45 Colt, maybe about 700 of the 44 WCF, so I was wondering if I should consider staying with 45 Colt for the rifle since the brass is so much easier to come by.  Obviously, on the pistols, no concerns about lost brass, but then the whole advantage of the 44 WCF is the better seal over the 45 Colt.  So, still tossing that around.

 

Sedalia, thanks for the input on the Ubertis.  My main rifle has been a slicked up Uberti '73 in 45 Colt that I've been very happy with.  I was just curious how the Henry Original's compared in terms of reliability, ability to use the SS kits, etc.  Obviously aesthetics, fit and finish and their lifetime warranty carry a premium.

 

Abilene, thanks for the details on identifying the various versions of the Navy Arms.

 

Major, I've followed your search for the iron frame case hardened model.  Just personal preference on the looks? Any issues with the brass receiver versions?  Any luck on finding the gun you're after?

 

Regards,

Johnny

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I've got an Uberti Henry, and find it to be not all that much different from shooting a 73 or a 66.  (With one small exception that I'll discuss later.)  The actions on all three guns are identical, so that's why there's not much difference.   My Henry is out of the box stock, and it's never given me a lick of trouble.  I also have an early Uberti, read, Navy Arms, 66, and it works just fine as well.  If you find a used Navy Arms Henry, in spite of what folks have mentioned about hard to find parts, I'd not hesitate, based on how well the one I have works.  But that's just me.  The HRA Henry is a very beautiful gun, and by all accounts top quality, but I'd not shell out the money they are asking for them.   The Uberti ones work just fine as is, for a lot less money.

Now of course, loading a Henry is different, but not all that hard to master.  Just be sure not to do so vertically for safety and you'll be fine.

 

If you are gonna go black powder, I'd stick to .44-40.   Smokeless, .45 Colt.


Where the Henry really has an operating difference is how after you fire 6 or 7 shots, you've got to do what folks call "the Henry Hop," to fire off the last few shots.  You've basically got to move your hand out of the way of the fowler tab to finish the shooting string.

 

Many pards, myself included, get around this problem by using a spacer stick.  Load 10, then you have a stick to take up the remaining space in the magazine, with no need to hop.  It's a really simple fix, and since I don't have a pic handy of mine, hopefully someone will post a pic of theirs before I get home from work.  :)

The other nice thing about the Henry is that they have a maximum amount of style points.  In other words, they are wicked cool looking, and you can't go wrong with that. 

But they are not as cool as a Lightning, IMO.

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

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I don't think that any of the short stroke kits that are available will fit the HRC 1860 (someone will correct me if that is wrong).  Not sure about other parts like springs.  So you could always have an action job on the HRC, polishing stuff and thinning springs as needed, but if you want a short stroke it will need to go to one of the guys who do a cut/weld.  And while that is possible, I don't know if they do it or not since they might need a separate alignment jig for the HRC, you would just have to ask them (unless someone has already had it done and knows).

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My first SASS rifle was a Navy Arms (Uberti) M1860 Military Henry rifle, in .44-40.  I must have put 3500 rounds of smokeless loads (never did go BP), and the headspace checks out like new. The loads were 8.0 gr. Unique behind a 213.5 gr bullet.  The only reason I quit shooting it was the muzzle-heaviness having an effect on my back (NOT the only cause by any means!).  I went to Rossi '92's for easier balance. Between the pandemic and the weather, plus the calendar having snuck up on the number 80, haven't done any shooting lately. No relatives interested in any of my iron, but I haven't quite got to the point where I'm gonna "sell my saddle" or my iron. 

 

So, I'd say go for a Uberti Henry, if that suits.

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On 1/4/2023 at 12:22 PM, Johnny Knight said:

Why would some clubs not allow them?  Haven't heard of that.

 

 

Some clubs ban them because if loaded improperly there is a possibility of a cartridge in the magazine tube being set off.

 

The first way is holding the rifle vertically or nearly so and dropping the rounds into the magazine. The impact of the round striking the nose of the round before it could cause the primer to go off.

The proper way is to lay the rifle on the loading table upside down. Slide the follower all the way to the muzzle and the turn the barrel shroud to the left. Notice that the depression in the barrel shroud makes a convenient place to lay each round before pushing it into the magazine.  

 

The second way is after loading is allowing the follower to move under spring pressure alone when closing the magazine. When it snaps down on the column of cartridges it could cause a round to go off.   

The proper way is to place your had around the barrel and magazine about 1/2" above the top round. Be sure you have a grip on the follower before twisting the barrel shroud back to the right. Once the follower is back in line with the mag tube move the follower by hand until it rests on the top round. The reason for your hand around the barrel and mag tube is so that if you accidentally drop the follower it will hit your hand and not the rounds in the magazine. 

 

 

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What Dantankerous and Major said. 

 

Since you're going to shoot BP, there's no better cartridge than .44-40. It's super clean. You can get by with .45 Colt, but its straight wall construction with comparatively thick brass at the case mouth means it doesn't seal the chamber very well, resulting in a fair amount of blow-by and soot in the receiver. Some negate that issue by annealing the case, but that's too tedious for me. I'd rather watch paint dry.

 

As for your pistols, it makes no difference in blow-by because of the barrel to cylinder gap. Depending on the manufacturer, cylinder throats can be a problem for .44-40s. Unless you've just gotta have .44-40 pistols, you might want to stick with .45s. An added benefit is you can shoot smaller .45 cases like Schofield and C45S Cowboy Special. It's more economical and easier on recoil. A full case of BP in .45 Colt or .44-40 is a bit much for me. The C45S case has the added benefit of using the same shell holder or shell plate as the .45 Colt. It's basically a rimmed .45ACP.

 

Some shooters do the Henry hop, while others use a spacer stick. Then there's Major who does neither. He has a mystifying technique of holding the gun with his fingertips to avoid the follower. It's amazing to see.

 

I use a spacer stick as shown below. It allows me to hold the gun between the follower and receiver and avoid the "hop". It's mildly awkward to hold as there as balance isn't ideal with such a long barrel, but it works well for me.

 

BTW, my rifle is a late '90s vintage Uberti. I put a 3rd gen short stroke kit and lighter springs a number of years ago. The SS kit came from Cowboys and Indians Store. Love it!

 

Good luck!

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Regarding the pistols, they are already in the works.  I picked up a pair of OMV in the 44-40 with two different barrel lengths, so the answer was to re-barrel them both to a 6 1/2" length (just seemed like the right length for me), and swapped to a set of Bisley grip frames (just point more naturally to me).  The cylinder throat issue common to the Vaqueros in that caliber has already been addressed with a Manson reamer.  Waiting on them to come back from Boomstick, hopefully in time for EoT.  When I get the pistols in, I'll work up the load I want to settle on.  I've got both real black and some APP, so going to experiment with some different loads to see what works best for me.

 

I understand the guns tend to be on the heavier side, ooc, I am assuming most folks are shooting the 24" barrels, but I noticed they also make a carbine length of 20", how much are folks finding that to be an issue?

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In addition to what Sedalia Dave said about some clubs banning the Henry due to possible magazine detonations, there is also a danger potential when the rifle has to be drawn from a scabbard, as the follower can snag on the leather and pull forward, then pop loose and slam down on the cartridges when it clears the scabbard.  However, I haven't seen a stage with long guns in scabbards in a long, long time.  None of the clubs I have shot at in central Texas have banned the Henry.

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PM Largo Casey, he runs a 20" carbine Original Henry.   Dantankerous and I gave it a good looking over this past year at the CC Showdown.  Beautiful lil carbine.  The shorter Uberti Henry's are harder to find I think.  They do show up from time to time on Gun Broker.

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My ultimate 1860 Henry would be a color case Trapper. Not picky on caliber as long as it's 44-40.

 

:o

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To Abilene and Sedalia (or anyone who wants to chime in), how much is the round going off while loading a documented issue vs. the theory that it could happen?

I figure folks have been shooting these for awhile, so with all the rounds that have gone down range at SASS matches, any idea how many times this has actually happened?  Trying to get a feel for just how differently the loading sequence needs to be with the rifle.

As a side note, one of my past horses was a 3 year old stud colt.  Some of the groups I rode with had a flat out ban on studs, while others couldn't have cared less.  With the former groups, they always had a story about 'something that could happen' if a stud went to mount while someone was riding a mare.  I had ridden primarily mares, but after working with him for just a bit I could high line tie him up with mares without any of the 'stud behavior' issues some folks were so worked up over, as a result I've learned to ask about the actual history.

Johnny

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3 minutes ago, Johnny Knight said:

To Abilene and Sedalia (or anyone who wants to chime in), how much is the round going off while loading a documented issue vs. the theory that it could happen?...

It has definitely happened more than just a couple times.  I have read first hand reports here on the Wire a number of times over the years.  Just like round nose bullets in tubular magazines, which have also been documented to chain fire, though I think I've read about more Henry magazine accidents than the round nose bullet issue.

 

Likely some will chime in who have seen it personally, but if not, well that's just statistics.  Plus most shooters never go on the Wire.

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A magazine chain fire in the 1860 Henry is not theoretical, they've actually happened.  Rare, but the potential is still there, just as described above.  I have a 2009 Uberti production 1860 Steel framed Henry in 45 Colt.  I don't find it a problem once I "clearanced" the carrier about .010-.015".  I've shot several 3-day matches without any problems or cleaning.  I have a Taylor's & Sons carbine length 1860 Henry on order, again, a steel framed version that will be converted to shoot the C45S cartridge.  Enabling the carbine to hold 10 rounds.  My 24-¼" length 1860 hold 19 rounds after it's conversion.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The carrier length on the OLD Navy Arms Henry's is the same as the newer ones.  The biggest difference is that the bolt and firing pin extension are completely different from the newer ones.  On the old Navy Arms the firing pin extension is .040" larger in diameter than the newer versions.  That also means the hole in the bolt and the hole in the receiver are larger.  I had one of these new in the box for years and when I finally decided to fool around with it found the bolt was defective and the firing pin could not hit the primers.  No big deal I thought so I just grabbed a new bolt from the parts bin.  Nope, won't fit.  The gun had other problems so I just junked it and used the parts for other projects.

 

First photo, the new firing pin extension on the left and the old on the right.  Second photo.  New style bolt on the left, old on the right.  Hopefully everyone can see the difference in size without having to put a dial indicator next to the parts.  The old Navy Arms is scarce and this one is the only one I have ever seen.

 

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If you want the best caliber for shooting "Black Power" bar none and legal for CC... Get a 38 WCF. also Known as the 38-40 ( but it's really a .40 caliber )

I take the side plates of every 4 or 5 years to inspect and relube things.... the outside of my fired cases are cleaner than 85% of the Heathen Fad powder shooters cases as they come out of the gun. and I use Full case loads of Goex 3f. 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Thanks for that education, Larsen.  I guess it is only the older '66's with the short carrier (other than those first Navy Arms Henrys in 44 Rimfire).  So, if one runs across a really old Navy Arms Henry, just take a good look at the firing pin extension?

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I saw a Henry with a short, braided leather strap with a knot on the end, attached to the sling attachment on the rifle barrel. About 4 1/2” long. Shooter held it in fist, pulling rifle into shoulder instead of gripping barrel, so no Henry Hop required. Looked like it would work pretty well. Not sure if it would be SASS  Legal or not. I’m my opinion, it’s not a sling, could easily be made with period correct gear, ought to be legal! Anybody ever used one or gotten a ruling on it? 

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6 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

In addition to what Sedalia Dave said about some clubs banning the Henry due to possible magazine detonations, there is also a danger potential when the rifle has to be drawn from a scabbard, as the follower can snag on the leather and pull forward, then pop loose and slam down on the cartridges when it clears the scabbard.  However, I haven't seen a stage with long guns in scabbards in a long, long time.  None of the clubs I have shot at in central Texas have banned the Henry.

 

Thanks I forgot about that. I've had the follower get caught on a prop edge a couple of times when I first started shooting my Henry.  

 

Any more I only shoot it at NCOWS matches and we almost always stage rifles vertically so it became an non-issue.

 

For SASS matches I shoot my 66 in 44 WCF.

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I saw a Henry with a short, braided leather strap with a knot on the end, attached to the sling attachment on the rifle barrel. About 4 1/2” long. Shooter held it in fist, pulling rifle into shoulder instead of gripping barrel, so no Henry Hop required. Looked like it would work pretty well. Not sure if it would be SASS  Legal or not. I’m my opinion, it’s not a sling, could easily be made with period correct gear, ought to be legal! Anybody ever used one or gotten a ruling on it? 

Never heard of it or seen it. I can’t imagine it being much more stable than a water ski rope or shooting bag handle. At least not my hand. 

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59 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Thanks I forgot about that. I've had the follower get caught on a prop edge a couple of times when I first started shooting my Henry.  

 

I had that happen once when picking the rifle up at the beginning of the string. Although with a full magazine and spacer stick, the follower could only have moved 3/4" before stopping. Not enough force to be an issue.  However, it unlocked the barrel just enough to rotate it slightly, thus taking pressure off the stack of rounds so it wouldn't feed. Oops! 

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Back when I lived in Indiana, I shot a Henry on occasion. I had several members from northern Indiana tell me they were no longer allowed at their matches due to injuries. According to one guy, it happened to him. He said the issue was staging the rifle with the follower past the edge of the table. When he shot the stage, the follower caught on the table edge and caused the chain fire. Since that time I have made sure the follower is not past the table edge.

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2 hours ago, Jeffrey l said:

Will the older uberti's imported by navy arms parts interchange with the newer ones. 

I've seen several posts over the years that say no.

I have an early Navy Arms 66, and I can see several differences from a much later Henry, so I tend to believe those who say it can't be done.

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I got the original Henry 20 in. carbine.What I wanted-What I got.Definitly had to have action work .Griner Gun Works did the work.Runs smooth & I'm very happy with it.Shoots BP with no problems.Gonna shoot it at the CC shoot at Pampa Tx.Hope to see a lot of CCs there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Largo

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Howdy Pard

 

 I have an Uberti Henry in 45 Colt (also a Uberti 1866 Yellow Boy in 45 Colt) and dearly love it. The original Henrys had a reputation for accuracy due to their heavy barrel. My replica shoots far more accurately than I. 
 

That said, if I had it to do over again I’d get a 44-40. There’s a lot more carbon blowback from the straight-walled 45 than from the bottlenecked 44-40.

 

Either way you’ll have a great shootin’ iron.

 

Adios

 

Fort Reno Kid 

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On 1/4/2023 at 5:22 PM, Johnny Knight said:

To Abilene and Sedalia (or anyone who wants to chime in), how much is the round going off while loading a documented issue vs. the theory that it could happen?

I figure folks have been shooting these for awhile, so with all the rounds that have gone down range at SASS matches, any idea how many times this has actually happened?  Trying to get a feel for just how differently the loading sequence needs to be with the rifle.

As a side note, one of my past horses was a 3 year old stud colt.  Some of the groups I rode with had a flat out ban on studs, while others couldn't have cared less.  With the former groups, they always had a story about 'something that could happen' if a stud went to mount while someone was riding a mare.  I had ridden primarily mares, but after working with him for just a bit I could high line tie him up with mares without any of the 'stud behavior' issues some folks were so worked up over, as a result I've learned to ask about the actual history.

Johnny

This happened to Blackwater Desperado several years ago. The follower slipped in his hand while loading resulting in a chain fire. Repairable damage and stained pants later we found the flat nose bullets actually had a very slight cone shape, probably only a few thousandths of an inch, but enough to play firing pin. It does happen.

 

Imis

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9 minutes ago, Johnny Knight said:

So are there particular bullets that folks are fond of for the Henry to mitigate this concern?  Looking at 44-40 loaded with both real BP as well as APP.

Johnny

I would check any new bullets with a straightedge to make sure they are absolutely flat on the tip.

 

Imis

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