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Send in the Clones and look at the safeties and other differences.


H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

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Not too long ago I shared a post about my Colt revolvers and asked people to do the same.  Some did.  (Huzzah!)  But I limited my post specifically to real Colts and did not include clones.

Well, I was thinking today about the clones and thought it would be fun to share then as well.  (By "clones" I mean things that are supposed to be a copy, of sorts, of the Colt SAA, not things that are very similar like the Remington or Ruger.)  But I also thought just sharing some clones was kinda "why botherish."  But then I realized that there are almost as many different "safeties" on these various clones, or other differences that might be fun to look at. 

So I figured, "why not?"    And with that in mind, I shall now send in the clones.   Like with my real Colts, I'll do it by caliber.

We will start with .44 Special.

 

882522795_44Special.thumb.JPG.f2fd38c165f8a0eef46840d0d3888fc9.JPG

 

The top pistol is an Alder Italy Model 1873, imported by EMF.  The bottom is an Uberti Cimmaron.  

The Alder has got what I consider to be the most offensive, and weirdest, safety I've ever seen on a clone; a kind of rotating cylinder pin.

 

495673668_AlderPin.thumb.JPG.2209f86033409e0631260c86cd1cfe0e.JPG

 

You can tell that it's in the "fire" position by that red dot.  This is also why I hate it so much, it's just plain ugly.

 

386834189_AlderBase.thumb.JPG.364b287443c648bdbe4d3e0211116cba.JPG

 

You can't see it well, but the base of the cylinder pin has a kind of a nub on it.


433224426_AlderHammerNotch.thumb.JPG.a16856c729bc77269b4a3cc4f5e0fc6b.JPG

 

When it's in the fire position, it'll fit in this notch on the hammer, allowing the gun to go bang.  When it's in the safe position, it blocks the hammer from going all the way down.  This safety might actually work, but I'd not recommend it.  Trying to rotate it around to the firing position, while cocked, or at least on half cock, is a fumble and stumble procedure.   Best to ignore it's existence and just carry 5.  It is however, a very easy thing to fix.  A Colt cylinder pin will fit.


The Uberti has a strange feature, I don't know what Uberti calls it, but I refer to it as the "Safety Notch Block," and it seems to be the most common safety I see on Uberti made guns.

988811046_UbertiSafetyNotchBlockBackofHammer.thumb.JPG.83d18d42a708b2ac97929d0061f8f9a9.JPG

 

I am sure almost all of us have seen this little switch like thingee on the back of an Uberti hammer.

 

210107992_UbertiSafetyNotchBlockFrontofHammer.thumb.JPG.ed3ce36d1cd4e46414242dfd4a11a338.JPG

 

And this is what it looks like from the front of the hammer.

1434442288_UbertiSafetyNotchBlockFrame.thumb.JPG.85cb03ff84e7694a5df67489c43a57f6.JPG

 

And there is a hole in the frame the same shape as the block on the hammer.   When the gun is on the first, or safety notch click, this block drops down into the hole, preventing the firing pin from being able to go forward.  Of all the safeties I've seen on the clones, this is the only one that seems to function practically, and would thus actually be a viable one for actual use.  Not that I would, but it does seem that it actually would be safe.   A little more difficult to get rid of, you'd have to replace the hammer with one that doesn't have the block.  Don't think it's worth the trouble.

 

Here's my .44-40 clone....

 

44-40.thumb.JPG.5dac529eede82719b94a1b00ebe6d848.JPG

 

This is an American Arms Uberti.   It has the Safety Notch Block safety.  

Up next, .44 Magnum.

753016798_44Magnum.thumb.JPG.db6a8813c4ad4ef4fcf7edc433ae6969.JPG

 

The top is another American Arms Uberti with the Safety Notch Block thing.  As you can see, it is slightly "upscaled" to, I assume, make it stronger.

In the middle is an original Great Western Revolver, which is also the original clone, and depending on who you ask and believe, the first revolver to hit the market in .44 Magnum.  Interestingly, it's not scaled up any that I can see when eyeball comparing it to my Colts.

The bottom is a Virginian Dragoon, which seems to be more of a copy of the New Frontier than a standard SAA, and it is even more beefed up than the Uberti up top.

 

Here's an interesting feature of the Great Western...

180797647_GreatWesternCocked.thumb.JPG.6035e9eaab272c3303c947cc89869d10.JPG

 

No firing pin on the hammer, giving it a very unique and strange look.

1554542078_GreatWesternFiringPin.thumb.JPG.339581c7c40853d7cb1a33f4bfcadf4e.JPG

The firing pin is in the frame.  Oddly, this is NOT a safety.  With the hammer down, you can see the pin being forward to contact a theoretical cartridge.  I have no idea why Great Western made this change, and can see no way to get rid of the feature.

The Dragoon has something very similar going on.

477566071_VirginiaDragoonCocked.thumb.JPG.7cabb5f84d60f113c0128e327eeb60e7.JPG

 

Again, no firing pin on the hammer....

340530815_VirginaDragoonFiringPin.thumb.JPG.2e91208c4b7d6afb5c64b0aac290b656.JPG

 

...because it's in the frame.   Again, not a safety though.   Instead, it has one of these...

72275900_ViginiaDragoon2PositionPin.thumb.JPG.5172b713f9aa3c33f942cb3ca9b5192e.JPG

 

This is a dual position cylinder pin.   In the rear position, the gun goes bang.  In the front, it causes the pin to stick out the back of the frame, preventing the gun from firing.  It works, but I'd not use it.  To much of a hassle to "deactivate," and when you put it back in after cleaning, make sure you put it on the correct position.

 

And finally, my .45's

 

791849355_.45Colt.thumb.JPG.de9a5637e5b9c2cf27fc0367d3fe3e01.JPG

 

The top is a Uberti Cimarron, with the dual position cylinder pin type safety.

Next is another American Arms Uberti, (Whatever happened to American Arms?) with the Safety Notch Block.

The third gun is an Armi San Marco set up to look like a GI pistol, right down to the US on the frame.  It has the dual position cylinder pin safety.

And last, but by no means, least, is my (in)famous Big Iron.  It's an Armi San Marco that started life as a generic 5.5" barrelled revolver.  It also has the dual position cylinder pin safety.

Here's pic of it...

74786177_BigIron2PositionPin.thumb.JPG.b04a280e95559f9af16e29546137e6b7.JPG

 

It's a little different from the Virginian, but you can see the similarity.

I'll go on record that, in spite of it's being too impractical to actually use, I find this to be the least "offensive" of all the safeties to be found on the clones.  Not only is it not noticeable unless you really look for it, it is easily done away with by replacing it with a Colt pin, which fits.  If an SAA type revolver MUST have a safety, this is the kind it should have.

And those are my clones.

 

Curiously, I don't have anything made by Pietta.  

 

Has anyone encountered a clone with a different kind of safety than what I've seen here?   I'd be curious to know about them.  Or were/are there any other makers of clones?   As soon as I type that, USFA and Standard Manufacturing come to mind, but I don't have any of those either.

Anyone else want to share their clones?

 

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I have 2 Pietta and they both have the dual notch on the cylinder pin. But they are super aggravating because the only have the notch in one place on the pin so you have to get it inserted straight down. Mine also have the super weird spring loaded firing pin on the hammer. I understand that you can make a normal hammer work and there is a YouTube video that addresses this so that is on the list. It would appear that a enterprising gunsmith could make up some normal pins for the cylinder with only one notch milled all the way around. 

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53 minutes ago, Vail Vigilante said:

I have 2 Pietta and they both have the dual notch on the cylinder pin. But they are super aggravating because the only have the notch in one place on the pin so you have to get it inserted straight down. Mine also have the super weird spring loaded firing pin on the hammer. I understand that you can make a normal hammer work and there is a YouTube video that addresses this so that is on the list. It would appear that a enterprising gunsmith could make up some normal pins for the cylinder with only one notch milled all the way around. 

Huh?  Never heard of anything like that on a Pietta.  They have a "floating" firing pin which wiggles around, but that's normal and older Ubertis (before their recent firing pin safety) and Colts (not 1st gen) do the same.  You may be confusing it with the newer Ubertis that have the firing pin pin that will telescope back into the hammer unless the trigger is pulled.  That's what it sounds like you are describing.

 

By the way, you can replace the Pietta cylinder pin with an Uberti pin to eliminate that aggravation.  That's the first thing I did on my one Pietta.

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For the cylinder pin safety, I inserted that cylinder pin all the way to the safety notch. Marked how far it protruded past the frame. Then cut it off the excess. Now it no longer interfere with the hammer. 

 

Problem solved.

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13 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Huh?  Never heard of anything like that on a Pietta.  They have a "floating" firing pin which wiggles around, but that's normal and older Ubertis (before their recent firing pin safety) and Colts (not 1st gen) do the same.  You may be confusing it with the newer Ubertis that have the firing pin pin that will telescope back into the hammer unless the trigger is pulled.  That's what it sounds like you are describing.

 

By the way, you can replace the Pietta cylinder pin with an Uberti pin to eliminate that aggravation.  That's the first thing I did on my one Pietta.

Good tip on the new pin!

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1 hour ago, Vail Vigilante said:

I never have taken this gun apart. Was just told to expect this by someone who has a lot of single actions. The firing pin jiggled, so I assumed it had the spring thingy in it. Either way, I would prefer it look more like a gen 1 Colt....

If you want a fixed conical firing pin, there will also be modifications to the bushing in the recoil plate at a minimum.  Then you will have a Pietta that has a FP that looks like a 1st gen but other things won't look right (sights, for example).

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On 1/2/2023 at 11:23 PM, Vail Vigilante said:

I have 2 Pietta and they both have the dual notch on the cylinder pin. But they are super aggravating because the only have the notch in one place on the pin so you have to get it inserted straight down.

 

I am not sure I understand what that means.   Can you post pics?

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2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

I am not sure I understand what that means.   Can you post pics?

The Uberti Stallion/Lightning/Model P pins are the same way.  Here's a Pietta:

https://www.apexgunparts.com/pietta-1873-base-pin-gd.html

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I have a pair of 45 Colt 4 3/4" USFA Rodeos (U.S. parts, not Uberti), and they have no safeties. They appear to be a genuine clone of a first generation Colt Model P.

 

As I understand it, some of the early USFA guns that were made from Uberti parts had the hammer safety bar, but I've never handled one of those, so it's just hearsay from me.

 

IMG_2281.thumb.jpeg.26a2c69814fb6c2fd9545624ce645cc9.jpeg

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  • 5 weeks later...

I just bought a Uberti El Patron and noticed some inconsistent primer hits.  It has a retracting firing pin, that I believe someone mentioned earlier.  First of all, the gun has no safety notch on the hammer.  The firing pin has a wide slot where the small pin that attaches it to the hammer allows it to move back and forth in the hammer, and it is operated by a "transfer bar" in the hammer.  If the trigger is not pulled, the transfer bar drops below the back of the firing pin, and there is no blocking the backward movement of the firing pin so as to not expose it to the primer.  If the trigger is pulled, the "hand" is moved up engaging the transfer bar and pushing it up behind the firing pin, thus forcing the firing pin in a position to strike the primer.  I have not taken the gun apart to the level to see the parts, yet, but saw it in a diagram in the owner's handbook.

 

I shot the revolver when I was checking sights, and all went well.  When I started firing faster, I got a failure to fire occasionally, and there were light dents in the primer. I'm wondering if I am pulling the trigger, then immediately releasing the trigger such that the transfer bar drops out before the hammer hits the primer.

 

In any case, since this gun is only used for cowboy action shooting, I would like to replace the retracting pin with a fixed pin, and remove the transfer bar.  Have you seen a fixed firing pin that was removed?IMG_1467.jpg.e598c9e18c8bae1a42759d2fd09b511f.jpg  Is there any chance, it could be as simple as removing the retracting pin, and replacing with a fixed pin, and the pin hole in the hammer being at the exact spot to work?

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No.  The pin hole in the side of the hammer is nowhere near where it would need to be.  Some people have had success by putting a piece of metal behind the FP so that it cannot retract.  Some people purchase an old-style hammer and trigger from Taylors to replace the "safety" hammer.  You may be able to use the original trigger by cutting off the extra arm on it.

 

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On 1/3/2023 at 12:26 AM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Huh?  Never heard of anything like that on a Pietta.  They have a "floating" firing pin which wiggles around, but that's normal and older Ubertis (before their recent firing pin safety) and Colts (not 1st gen) do the same.  You may be confusing it with the newer Ubertis that have the firing pin pin that will telescope back into the hammer unless the trigger is pulled.  That's what it sounds like you are describing.

 

By the way, you can replace the Pietta cylinder pin with an Uberti pin to eliminate that aggravation.  That's the first thing I did on my one Pietta.

Exactly.  I purchased a pair of GW2 Piettas about a year ago.  Before they arrived I ordered Uberti “no safety” basepins for them.

 

The Pietta (GW2 or Cimarron Frontier) has a fixed firing pin.  There is so much confusion on the difference between a hammer-mounted fixed firing pin (most of which have, and need, a little bit of wiggle but the pin is still “fixed”, a frame-mounted floating firing pin, a transfer bar ignition (usually paired with a T-bar, and Uberti’s Cattleman 2 retractable firing pin.

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On 2/2/2023 at 4:08 PM, Rum Crook, SASS #55339 said:

The firing pin has a wide slot where the small pin that attaches it to the hammer allows it to move back and forth in the hammer, and it is operated by a "transfer bar" in the hammer.  If the trigger is not pulled, the transfer bar drops below the back of the firing pin, and there is no blocking the backward movement of the firing pin so as to not expose it to the primer.  If the trigger is pulled, the "hand" is moved up engaging the transfer bar and pushing it up behind the firing pin, thus forcing the firing pin in a position to strike the primer.  I have not taken the gun apart to the level to see the parts, yet, but saw it in a diagram in the owner's handbook.

 

IMG_1467.jpg.e598c9e18c8bae1a42759d2fd09b511f.jpg  

Thanks for posting the photo.

 

Uberti calls the connecting rod inside the hammer a “transfer bar”.  They should know very well that this term has an accepted meaning and this isn’t it.  They are adding to the confusion.  Uberti has made revolvers with a transfer bar ignition!  They should know better.

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