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Frontier Six Shooter Cartridge Rim Diameters


Sexton

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Dear Sirs, it is a brand new year and I am resolved to join SASS in 2023. Estes Energetics will restart Goex black powder this year and the  .44-40 Winchester beckons to me. May I ask some of you long tempered gentlemen a greenhorn question before I start looking at Colt Frontier Six Shooters and Winchester '73 rifles?

 

1. According to Wikipedia, the very first production Single Action Army, serial number 1, was chambered in .44 S&W American whose rim diameter was 0.506"

2. When the Army specified a change to .45 caliber its rim diameter was limited to around 0.500" since the Model P was already sized for the .44 S&W American.

3. Modern .45 Colt rims are enlarged to 0.512" in diameter which is claimed to be the maximum rim diameter that will work in the SAA.

4. The early .45 S&W cartridge's large rims would only fit every other chamber in the SAA until the Frankford Arsenal's  .45 Schofield was adopted whose rim diameter was 0.510"

5. The .45 Colt 1909 Army Ball Cartridge's rim diameter of 0.540" also would only fit in every other chamber in the SAA.

 

Wikipedia informs that From 1875 until 1880 Colt marketed a single-action revolver chambered in .44 Henry whose rim diameter was 0.518" in a separate number range from no. 1 to 1,863. If 0.512" is the maximum rim diameter for a SAA how was this accomplished?

 

That question leads to the real question of how Colt's Model P Frontier Six Shooter could chamber the .44-40 Winchester whose rim diameter was 0.525"?  I have looked in books and on the Internet during the last several years and searched this site for "rim diameter" and only found three hits for the 50-70. If this is an appropriate question thank you for my first cowboy action enlightenment.  With best regards.

 

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Whew, that’s a whole lotta questions there.   
First, if you are going to shoot in SASS,  GO TO A MATCH first before you even start purchasing. 
Second, some shoot real Colts, but most shoot modern reproductions made by Uberti, Pietta, or Ruger for revolvers.  Most 1st generation colts are highly collectible, and we’re pretty hard on our guns.  
Now in your caliber questions, a 44 Henry was a rimfire, not a center fire round, therefore the firing pin location has to be different than a center fire round.  Therefore a different gun is needed.    
I suspect that the 44 Russian, 44 S&W, &44-40 are all different models when made.  There was a recent article in GUNS magazine Old West Guns that had an article on all the 44 caliber rounds that might help you.  It should still be available online or on the magazine rack. (I found mine before Christmas at my Walmart) 
I think there are many other publications out there beyond Wikipedia, which for the most part, is almost, but not quite, entirely incorrect, but a good place to at least get to real reference materials in which to go down the colt history rabbit hole.  
EDIT: this month’s American Rifleman magazine (Jan 23 edition) has a great article on the history of the 1873 colt.    
Also, cartridges headspace based on the rim, but fit in the cylinder based on the case, not the rim diameter.   …. 
Frontier cartridge is a hoot to shoot, but you’ll be reloading obviously, and you’ll want to look up how best to clean your guns in between and after matches so you don’t wreck’em.   
Have fun, and like I said, get to a match, ask questions, and try things out before shelling out $$$’s.  
 

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I’m going to loop in a few of the forum’s edjumicated types who may be able to answer better than gamers like me who load smokeless in inexpensive calibers like .38 special. @H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619@Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 or @Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933can probably answer these questions.

 

Welcome to SASS!

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I recommend you don't buy genuine Colt FSS for SASS as they can be $3k each or more depending on condition. There are reproductions made by Ruger, Pietta, and Uberti that will work as well as a fraction of the cost.

If you have never reloaded before, I recommend starting with a straight wall case like the .45 Colt, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special, or .44 Magnum. The .44-40 has a very thin wall at the mouth and until you get the hang of reloading, you might be destroying a lot of cases.

I whole-heartedly recommend you attend a match or two as an observer to see what other shooters are using. 

The most popular revolver is the Ruger Vaquero. The most popular cartridge is the .38 Special.

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What is the availability of 44-40 brass? What is the availability of guns that shoot 44-40? What is the cost difference shooting 44-40 vs 38? What shooting style will you be shooting? Some shooters prefer longer pistols when shooting larger calibers. Go to a match. People there will share what they know. 

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1 hour ago, Mister Badly said:

What is the availability of 44-40 brass? What is the availability of guns that shoot 44-40? What is the cost difference shooting 44-40 vs 38? What shooting style will you be shooting? Some shooters prefer longer pistols when shooting larger calibers. Go to a match. People there will share what they know. 

 

I realize this is a rhetorical question but some may not know the answers.

44-40 Brass availability: Poor

44-40 Gun availability: Poor

Cost difference: The 44-40 is almost twice the lead if using a 105 grain bullet vs a 200-grain bullet so an increased cost. .38 special brass is everywhere and cheap.

 

The .45 Colt would be a better choice than 44-40 as far as finding guns and brass. If a shooter is shooting anything but Classic Cowboy, the .38 Special is king.

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As Cholla said, Colts in 44-40 can be pricey.  A consecutive set of 44s with 7 1/2'' bbls was listed on Gunbroker (items closed yesterday), which, when fees and shipping are thrown in, went for over $3,000 each.  As above, availability is hit or miss and because Colt is not listing them as standard production the ones that come up ( 3rd generation models ) are NOS ( new old stock ).  Factory ammo is almost non existent so reloading is a must.  With care, loading 44-40 ammunition can be fairly straightforward, but I wouldn't recommend it for beginners. 

 

The caliber and guns are fun to shoot, but if I were to start out now, clones would be the best, read cheapest, way to start. However, if you have your heart set on Colts then have it it.  You only live once.  I have three now and don't regret buying them.   I also have clones in the same caliber, though.

 

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12 hours ago, Sexton said:

Dear Sirs, it is a brand new year and I am resolved to join SASS in 2023. Estes Energetics will restart Goex black powder this year and the  .44-40 Winchester beckons to me. May I ask some of you long tempered gentlemen a greenhorn question before I start looking at Colt Frontier Six Shooters and Winchester '73 rifles?

 

1. According to Wikipedia, the very first production Single Action Army, serial number 1, was chambered in .44 S&W American whose rim diameter was 0.506"

2. When the Army specified a change to .45 caliber its rim diameter was limited to around 0.500" since the Model P was already sized for the .44 S&W American.

3. Modern .45 Colt rims are enlarged to 0.512" in diameter which is claimed to be the maximum rim diameter that will work in the SAA.

4. The early .45 S&W cartridge's large rims would only fit every other chamber in the SAA until the Frankford Arsenal's  .45 Schofield was adopted whose rim diameter was 0.510"

5. The .45 Colt 1909 Army Ball Cartridge's rim diameter of 0.540" also would only fit in every other chamber in the SAA.

 

Wikipedia informs that From 1875 until 1880 Colt marketed a single-action revolver chambered in .44 Henry whose rim diameter was 0.518" in a separate number range from no. 1 to 1,863. If 0.512" is the maximum rim diameter for a SAA how was this accomplished?

 

That question leads to the real question of how Colt's Model P Frontier Six Shooter could chamber the .44-40 Winchester whose rim diameter was 0.525"?  I have looked in books and on the Internet during the last several years and searched this site for "rim diameter" and only found three hits for the 50-70. If this is an appropriate question thank you for my first cowboy action enlightenment.  With best regards.

 

Howdy, Pard! Welcome to the campfire.  There are a few things you need to decide before you buy any guns:

First, how absolutely "authentic" do you want to be? Original Colt's Frontier Six Shooters (Single Action Army in .44-40) are going to cost thousands of dollars, and, as they haven't been made in quite a while, mechanical condition can be problematic.  The same is going to be true of original Winchester M1873's.  In addition, if you plan on getting into Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS), in SASS, more than just casually, the wear and tear originals will soon be a problem.  If you plan on serious participation, and want to look as near to the originals as possible, there are reproductions available at more reasonable costs.  Alternatively, you can go with Ruger Vaqueros, either the New Vaquero, available in .45 Long Colt or .357 Magnum,  The Old Model Vaquero's, although no longer in production, were available in .45 Long Colt, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and some in .44-40. You can probably find some of these for sale.  The Ruger Vaqueros are sturdier than the Colt's design, and, depending on your age, witll probably outlast you!  The magnums can be shot with the shorter cartridges in the family, e,g,m .357 Magnum can fire .38 Special ammo.  Should you opt for the .44 Magnum, they will handle .44 Russian and .44 Special.  

Next, rifles or carbines are available in modern production Winchester '73 form, and will handle .45 Long Colt, although the originals were not made in that caliber.  They are also available in .44-40 and .357 Magnum, though in the latter caliber, .38 Special ammo can be Overall Length OAL sensitive. 

Replicas of the Winchester M1892 are available from Rossi in most of the calibers mentioned.  They can be a little more sensitive to cartridge OAL.  A lot of the really fast shooters contend the '73's are faster, and can be slicked up.  I would wait to get into that.

 

I would strongly recommend attending a few shoots, and talking to the shooters. Most will let you try their guns, and you can see what suits your needs the best! 

Happy, Healthy and Safe New Year!

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7 hours ago, Cholla said:

 

I realize this is a rhetorical question but some may not know the answers.

44-40 Brass availability: Poor

44-40 Gun availability: Poor

Cost difference: The 44-40 is almost twice the lead if using a 105 grain bullet vs a 200-grain bullet so an increased cost. .38 special brass is everywhere and cheap.

 

The .45 Colt would be a better choice than 44-40 as far as finding guns and brass. If a shooter is shooting anything but Classic Cowboy, the .38 Special is king.

Thanks Cholla. I'm strictly 38 and 357 so I was hoping someone could chime in. That future cowboy has a lot of decisions to make. 

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Let me try to answer some of your queries as best I can.   

1.  SAA #1 was chambered for .45 Colt.  There was a prototype made in .44 American which was the then standard Army caliber, but they wanted a .45.   See the latest issue of American Rifleman for an excellent article on the SAA in general and has SAA #1 on the cover.

2 and 3...  Over the years, the SAA was chambered in many different calibers.   The "originals:" were .45 Colt, .44-40, .38-40, .32-20 and .44 Henry Rimfire, which had a unique serial number range.   Other calibers were .38 Long Colt, .38 special, .357 Magnum, ,41 Long Colt and ,44 Special.   There were also other calibers that were much rarer.   I am not sure exactly when these various calibers were first available or for how long.  As far as rim size differences go, I can't say for sure, but it would have been a small thing for them to made any modifications as needed.  

4.  Your comment on the .45 S&W sounds familiar.   But I can say that modern .45 S&W can fit in Colts with no problems.

5.  I have also heard of that problem with the 1909.  But I can tell you that normal .45 cases will chamber in a 1909 with no problems.   (I have one.)

The "Colt Frontier Six Shooter" is just what Colt called the SAA chambered for .44-40.  If you really wanna go black powder, then .44-40 is a much better choice than .45 Colt.  Or for that matter, .38-40 or .32-20 are good with black as well.   The straight wall cases CAN be loaded with black, but you'll get a lot more blowback.   Others can better explain all of that than I.

As far as guns go....

Well, finding real Colts in this caliber is expensive, but it can be done.

For example...

2066548909_44-40SAA.thumb.JPG.df6fb0d7fd328c6dc85dd56c76c645b5.JPG

 

I got both of these used.  The top is a 3rd Gen, and cost me about $1700 at a gun show about 5 years ago.   (I live in Massachusetts.  Guns are more expensive here.)

The bottom is a 1st Gen antique, so black powder only, that is in excellent mechanical shape but ugly as sin.  I got it for only $500 just before Covid hit.  So inexpensive Colts do exist.

Then there are the clones...

44-40.thumb.JPG.eb3d5ba8df717e0f640e49511cf06619.JPG

 

This Uberti cost even less than the ugly Colt.

 

You might also be able to find something with dual, .44 Special and .44-40 cylinders, but that's gonna push the price up again.

Smith and Wesson also chambered the New Model 3 in the caliber, and would be black powder only.  Modern replicas of various S&W's can also be had, but they tend to be a lot more costly than clones of the Colt.


A real Winchester 73 or 92 in .44-40 is also gonna be pricey, but copies of them, as well as the 66 or Henry are also available in the caliber.

 

Not much else I can tell you, but I hope it's helpful.


 

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I only shoot 44-40 in my Marlin. I can see a difference with blowback and residue getting back into the action shooting 44 Special compared to 44-40. Is there really much difference shooting 44-40 vs 44 special or 45 Colt in a revolver compared to shooting them in a rifle?

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19 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I only shoot 44-40 in my Marlin. I can see a difference with blowback and residue getting back into the action shooting 44 Special compared to 44-40. Is there really much difference shooting 44-40 vs 44 special or 45 Colt in a revolver compared to shooting them in a rifle?

Shooting the original dash calibers makes a big difference in keeping rifle actions clean due to the thin case mouths expanding to seal the chamber.  But it makes little difference in revolvers.

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Howdy Sexton!

 Please understand, SASS is not a historical re-enactment group.  It's more a western fantasy group with live ammo. Few shooters use real Colts or antique Winchesters in any caliber.  Most shooters use modern made single actions and lever action rifles that shoot 38 special with smokeless powder and very light bullets/loads as this is a less recoil/cheaper to shoot caliber and SASS is a timed/speed event nowadays.  Are there those who want to be a bit more historically accurate to the Old West era and shoot 44-40  (or 38-40) with black powder?  Yes, but they are a very small minority in comparison.

Like the others have said; go to a local SASS shoot FIRST and see what goes on before deciding to buy the arms and join.  You might be very disappointed otherwise...

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Yes go to several matches and see what folks are shooting.  Some will actually let you look and hold them and some may even let you shot some to see how they work for you.  Don't buy anthing until you have done that.

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1904 Frontier Six Shooter cylinder with modern (non-ballon head) cases. The rims measure .520" +/- .001".

 

I have to say, I don't like the extra steps in loading the bottlenecks for CAS, where volume is fairly high. I prefer the straight wall cartridges, and use a compression die and properly-sized, soft, heavy bullets for my 45 Colt black powder loads. Leaves the guns just as clean as the bottlenecks, and I can use a carbide sizer with no attendant need for lubricating cases or cleaning lube off after sizing. 

 

 

IMG_2280.thumb.jpeg.70b0d971862eb86a12ad7fe9f49d0c98.jpeg

 

 

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10 hours ago, Uriah, SASS # 53822 said:

5. 1909 Colt, 45 Colt

 

Ah!   A post from the man who is semi responsible for my own Alias.

When I first joined SASS, I wanted to use "Uriah" but it was already taken, so I use "H. K. Uriah," which I do use in several other contexts.

Just remember, Uriah, and H. K. Uriah are not the same pard.

Even if we do both have Colt 1909's.  :)

 

 

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