First pistol

[Subdeacon Joe]

26 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

it fits her hand comfortably and she is confident with it.

 

Right there are the key factors, comfortable in the hand and confidence.  And comfortable in the hand helps with good shooting which leads to confidence.

[Sedalia Dave]

The link that Deacon KC posted is really informative. 35 Women rated 18 different handguns that were considered ideal for women.

 

In the beginning most of the women thought they would prefer revolvers. However by the end of the testing, all but 1 revolver wasn't ranked at the bottom of the list. The top 5 were

 

1) SIG Sauer P238 

2) Walther CCP 

3) SIG Sauer P320 Compact

4) H&K VP9

5) Springfield EMP4

[Subdeacon Joe]

Used to be an older lady, late 60s or early 70s, taking private lessons at the gun store/range my wife worked at.  I watched her one time with her 1911, isosceles stance, elbows bent at about 120°, and wondered WHY Ken let her shoot like that.  Then I looked at her target.   Ten yards, at least 50 rounds.  Group about the size of a silver dollar right in the center of the target.   Why did he let her shoot like that?   Because for her it worked.  Takes all kinds.

[Sedalia Dave]

Here is a follow on test done a few years later. It focused on concealed carry.

 

Number of pistols was increased to 24 with 55 ladies taking part.

 

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/9/8/results-american-rifleman-ladies-pistol-project-ii-concealed-carry-pistols/

 

Over all the Glock 19 was the most liked pistol for concealed carry

[Sedalia Dave]

18 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Come down to it, in the home for a woman, a basic .22 auto like a Ruger.  Simple to operate, low recoil, capable of accuracy.  No one is going to walk into 10 rounds of .22.

 

Until someone comes up with rimfire ammunition that is as reliable as center fire. I will NEVER recommend a rimfire gun for self defense. And NEVER EVER a semi-auto rimfire.  Attend a rimfire challenge match and count all the rounds that fail to fire.

 

Read the link that DeaconKC posted as well as the follow on test that I linked to. Dispels all the pre-conceived notions about the best firearm for the ladies.

[Rip Snorter]

1 minute ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Until someone comes up with rimfire ammunition that is as reliable as center fire. I will NEVER recommend a rimfire gun for self defense. And NEVER EVER a semi-auto rimfire.  Attend a rimfire challenge match and count all the rounds that fail to fire.

 

Read the link that DeaconKC posted as well as the follow on test that I linked to. Dispels all the pre-conceived notions about the best firearm for the ladies.

I guess.  I've been shooting .22 since I was 8 or 10 years old and down too many decades, in everything from plinking to hunting to Bullseye Match, I may have had a dozen bad rounds.  The Ruger in particular is very quick to clear and stone axe simple. I would have complete confidence in one if my Wife wanted one.  We have very large dogs, and she has other significant skills so prefers not.

[Texas Joker]

Shotgun birdshot

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_accident

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

4 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

How so?  If you're shooting at 20 yards, yeah, there is some validity to that.  But at in the house ranges of three to five yards how much is that shot column going to spread?  

Compared to a .38 or .357 it will be a hell of a lot bigger!

[Texas Joker]

I don't know, how many people miss the shotgun targets at shoots. And they're skilled with the gun and at least prideful enough in their skill to compete.

 

Now new gun user just woke up and confronted with a violent situation. Kinda hope the can aim that thing

[Subdeacon Joe]

6 minutes ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

Compared to a .38 or .357 it will be a hell of a lot bigger!

 

My point is that you still have to have a good aim, not just point in the general direction.   People say things like, "Use a shotgun, you don't have to aim it!" as if at two yards you have a a dense five foot pattern. 

 

True, a shot column with a diameter of 3 inches IS bigger than a solid slug with a diameter of about 1/3 of an inch.  But if you are going to miss with the slug you are likely to miss with the shotgun.  

[Pat Riot]

What is the usual reaction from a new shooter when they pull the trigger on a 12 gauge round, be it 00 Buck or 7 1/2 bird shot?

It usually isn’t “Hey that was fun! Let’s do that again a bunch of times and hey, let’s do this often…like every week until I get good at it!”

 

 

 

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

My point is that you still have to have a good aim, not just point in the general direction.   People say things like, "Use a shotgun, you don't have to aim it!" as if at two yards you have a a dense five foot pattern. 

 

True, a shot column with a diameter of 3 inches IS bigger than a solid slug with a diameter of about 1/3 of an inch.  But if you are going to miss with the slug you are likely to miss with the shotgun.  

With an open choke I believe the pattern at 10' is probably about a foot in diameter, IMHO you don't have to be a great shot to take someone out at that range.

[Sedalia Dave]

11 minutes ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

With an open choke I believe the pattern at 10' is probably about a foot in diameter, IMHO you don't have to be a great shot to take someone out at that range.

 

I suggest you pattern your shotgun using your chosen self defense load and verify that assumption.

 

[Rip Snorter]

Darn, wasn't the OP talking about handguns?  Where are all the moderators when you need one.

[Sedalia Dave]

13 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I suggest you pattern your shotgun using your chosen self defense load and verify that assumption.

 

 

30 feet (10 yards) would be a really long shot in most houses. More likely would be a 10 to 15 foot shot. 

 

For example

 

 

https://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/patterning-shotgun-defense-edition/

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

31 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I suggest you pattern your shotgun using your chosen self defense load and verify that assumption.

 

Like I said in my OP, my self defense is 7 1/2 shot ....not anything any bigger!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

3 hours ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

Like I said in my OP, my self defense is 7 1/2 shot ....not anything any bigger!

If you fear attack by birds - use birdshot.

I prefer something designed for larger and more dangerous animals.

 

A birdshot load unless striking in the face/ eyes will (generally) be bloody, gross, messy AND unfortunately shallow.  

Rounds that do not penetrate into vital organs and structures do not reliably STOP determined attackers.

 

The 12 to 16 inches of penetration recommended by the FBI is not consistently obtained by birdshot. 

I am not saying no one has ever been killed or stopped by birdshot - I have read of kills of elephants with 22 caliber pistols.

But using birdshot for self defense; just like going after the elephant with a 22 - it MAY work but there are many better choices.

[Chantry]

7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

If you fear attack by birds - use birdshot.

I prefer something designed for larger and more dangerous animals.

 

A birdshot load unless striking in the face/ eyes will (generally) be bloody, gross, messy AND unfortunately shallow.  

Rounds that do not penetrate into vital organs and structures do not reliably STOP determined attackers.

 

The 12 to 16 inches of penetration recommended by the FBI is not consistently obtained by birdshot. 

I am not saying no one has ever been killed or stopped by birdshot - I have read of kills of elephants with 22 caliber pistols.

But using birdshot for self defense; just like going after the elephant with a 22 - it MAY work but there are many better choices.

 

I agree #7.5 is too small, however #4 shot (not buckshot) is a viable choice for specific scenarios such as apartment and condo living or where over penetration is a serious issue.  A search resulted in a YouTube test of #4 shot in ballistic gelatin and penetration was 8"-8.5" which is deep enough for a frontal shot at 10 yards or less.

 

I've see references where frangible rounds out of a pistol or .223 rifle MIGHT be a good home defense choice, but I have not found any testing results (I haven't looked very hard though).

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

Has anyone seen what #4 shot does to a slab of pork or beef when shot at 20' away? I have. Probably some YouTube videos somewhere that show the damage. I think that a ragged 3" wide x 2" deep hole in someone is going to completely remove the fight out of anyone that is wacked out on meth or the like. Now 7.5 shot...I wouldn't even consider it for home defense, unless it was the only thing available...but even that is better than nothing.

[Doc Moses]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:17 AM, Rip Snorter said:

Revolver is a good choice, it is what I used to teach girlfriends, and later my kids.  357 is a good because of the broad range of ammunition from target 38 all the way up to exotic full house magnums.  Six guns are fine but if they can afford and find one, a 7 or 8 shot can be an unpleasant surprise for someone bad,  For new folks, it is a K.I.S.S.  solution.

Agreed. Keep It Simple Silly KISS. Medium frame revolvers also have a significant dbl action trigger pull that makes them safer from accidental discharge. While I am RARELY listened to I always advise a revolver for handgun home defense. Not having a magazine to worry about going bad is also a big advantage for people who do not shoot often.  Round butt K or L frame Smith or the Taurus equivalent works great!

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

16 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I suggest you pattern your shotgun using your chosen self defense load and verify that assumption.

 

I second that!

 

When I bought a shotgun specifically for home defense, I did it and discovered that my particular shotgun hated 00 Buck and patterned better with #1 Buck.  No matter which 00 load I used (both 8 and 9 ball loads from the 3 or 4 manufacturers that were readily available when I bought the gun), there was at least one flyer that was 4 to 6 inches wide in one direction or another.

 

With the cylinder bore choke tube in it at 50 feet, it will keep all 16 .30" round balls in in the 2 3/4" Winchester or Remington loads in black of a 100 yard rifle target.  It really likes the 20 ball plated Federal #1 Buck but it is hard to locate.

[Iron City Sage]

For the house, and for carry, I’m a fan of the H&K VP9. 
 

very ergonomic-much more so than Glock and other brick semi-autos

 

more than enough in the mag for most situations. Double, or even triple what a small revolver will carry, so less chance of a reload

 

if you DO need to reload, drop a mag, slam a mag, and back in the fight

 

simple-no safety to fool with. Pick it up. Point. Pull the trigger. 

[Utah Bob #35998]

Without out reading the link to the surveys (I have to go lay some firewood in right now) did they do immediate action drills with the ladies?

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Most home defense accounts I've read of don't involve a running gunfight with a need to reload.

 

In fact I'm not sure I've read of even one.

[DeaconKC]

5 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Without out reading the link to the surveys (I have to go lay some firewood in right now) did they do immediate action drills with the ladies?

No, strictly range handling. Shooters abilities ranged from new shooters to World Champion competitors.

[Pat Riot]

 

23 hours ago, Rip Snorter said:

Darn, wasn't the OP talking about handguns?  Where are all the moderators when you need one.

ADSD - Attention Deficit Saloon Disorder! 
 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is real! 

[Tom Bullweed]

I ask about their experience and expectations. 

I walk them through a hand-eye dominance test.  If they are cross-dominant, I recommend a Ruger 10/22 for a house gun that they can shoot at the local indoor range or a semi-auto shotgun if they have a place to practice.

A mid-sized. 357, 4" barrel, loaded with .38+P is my typical handgun recommendation.

[Alpo]

On 12/25/2022 at 9:29 PM, Rip Snorter said:

Darn, wasn't the OP talking about handguns?  Where are all the moderators when you need one.

Actually, what the OP was talking about (and apparently I phrased my question badly) was how I would normally recommend a k-frame double action six shot 357 because you could shoot anything in it from puny little no recoil 38 wadcutters up to kick ass 357s. But with the ammo shortage, and the ammo makers seeming to only be making 9 mm these days (38s are available, but your choices are pretty much locked into either full metal jacket - which I do not like - or $2 a round defensive ammo - which is awful damn expensive for paper punching), would your suggestions change.

 

Based on the ammunition availability, would your suggestion of a home defense gun change. That was the original question.

 

And nobody has answered that question.

[Chantry]

4 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Actually, what the OP was talking about (and apparently I phrased my question badly) was how I would normally recommend a k-frame double action six shot 357 because you could shoot anything in it from puny little no recoil 38 wadcutters up to kick ass 357s. But with the ammo shortage, and the ammo makers seeming to only be making 9 mm these days (38s are available, but your choices are pretty much locked into either full metal jacket - which I do not like - or $2 a round defensive ammo - which is awful damn expensive for paper punching), would your suggestions change.

 

Based on the ammunition availability, would your suggestion of a home defense gun change. That was the original question.

 

And nobody has answered that question.

 

My original answer is below.  Since I wouldn't have recommended a revolver in the first place (which is supported by the NRA Ladies Pistol Project results), my answer hasn't changed. As for practice, practice is done with whatever the cheapest ammo that is available and closely duplicates the more expensive defensive ammo.  The improvements in design and manufacturing have drastically improved the reliability of the semi-auto pistol since the 1980's.

 

"For a beginner who has little interest in practicing or using a gun for anything but home defense.

 

Glock 17 or perhaps the Steyr M9A1.  I think the Steyr points better and is better suited for smaller hands.  Both are more than accurate & reliable enough for home defense purposes.  The more I hear and read, I'm leaning toward recommending a handgun with a dot on it for home defense.  I base this on a chat I had with a retired LEO who sometimes teaches at a police academy.  Based on what he said to me, more and more police departments are issuing a duty weapon already equipped with a dot.

 

For a long gun, either a pistol caliber carbine (maybe the Ruger PC9) or a semi-auto shotgun.  There are a number of semi-auto shotguns that will run 100% with decent ammo.  A pump is for a more experienced shooter who has put in the time to build up enough muscle memory to where they don't short stroke the shotgun and jam it up.  I've seen too many shooters, cowboy or otherwise, who get empty hulls hanging up in the gun because they haven't racked the gun hard enough to eject the hull.

 

If the person lives in an apartment, condo or some other situation where over penetration is a major concern, I'd recommend the shotgun first because there are more ammo options for a shotgun that will stop the attacker without over penetrating and hurting a relative or neighbor.

 

On edit:

I've been shooting action matches (plates, bowling pins and the local equivalents of IDPA & IPSC) at the local level for almost 30 years and most shooters can't shoot a full sized DA revolver worth a damn and forget a J framed sized revolver.  While the revolver MAY jam less often than a semi-auto pistol, a revolver jam usually locks up the gun and can't be cleared in a hurry or without tools."

[Subdeacon Joe]

3 hours ago, Alpo said:

Based on the ammunition availability, would your suggestion of a home defense gun change. That was the original question.

 

And nobody has answered that question.

 

No, it wouldn't change from a .357 revolver.  Practice mostly with whatever is inexpensive, finishing with a few rounds of your expensive defense loads.  At home load with the expensive defense loads.  

 

Although, truthfully, your inexpensive practice loads would likely be sufficient.

[El Chapo]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:20 AM, Hashknife Cowboy said:

or any handgun you are comfortable in shooting and can manipulate in the darkness and will not go through multiple walls and hit something or someone outside of your home.

 

There's really no such thing.  Even a .380, 9mm, or .38 will go through many--maybe a dozen--sheets of drywall.