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Historical .38 S&W


German Jim

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I want to load some Black Powder cartridges for my pre-1900 H&R .38S&W top-break.  In the late 19th century, for this cartridge, what would have been a "normal" bullet weight? (or was there one)

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In my 38SWs I load full case APP and a 105 grn 357 Bullet (same Bullet I use in my main match vaqueros)  yes slightly undersized, but at PP distances it doesn’t really matter 

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.38 S&W was a 146 grain round nose bullet of .361" diameter.   .38 Colt New Police, which was what Colt called the round, but it is the same thing, used a 145 grain round nose flat point bullet of the same .361" diameter.   I'm not sure what the "official" charge of powder was.  Full case of black slightly compressed, I suppose.   Early cases were also balloon headed to allow for a smidge more powder.

I have found a good bunch of .38 New Colt Police brass over the years, and so far everything I've found with that headstamp is balloon headed cases, even rounds that were in old boxes marked smokeless powder.   As such I have no fear in reloading them.   I use the NCP brass for black powder loads, regular .38 S&W brass for smokeless so that I can know just by looking what is what.

When I first started reloading, FINDING .360" or .361" bullets was difficult.  I eventually found a .360" 158 grain RN bullet that I use for my smokeless rounds, and Buffalo Arms has a 150 grain round nose hollow base bullet that is lubed for either black or smokeless powder.  I use that round in BP .38 S&W.   The hollow base expands to grab the rifling.  (I also use it for .38 Short and Long Colt, both smokeless and BP loads)  It's a rather expensive bullet, but since I don't shoot the load all that often, it's "affordable" in my estimation.

A word now about nickeled Winchester .38 S&W brass.  It's oddly sized.  If you seat a .360" bullet in said brass, you will see the case being bulged where the bullet is, and it WILL NOT CHAMBER in your ,38 S&W revolvers.   So, for this brass, I use the above mentioned .358" diameter bullet, and since it seats not as deeply in the case as the .360" bullet, there is more powder capacity.  This brings up something called the .38-200 round.  The case is identical to the .38 S&W, but it was loaded to much higher pressures for use in the Webley Mark IV .38 revolvers used by the Brits in WW2.  You will also find many S&W Victory Models and Colt revolvers that were lend leased to British and Commonwealth forces that are chambered for this much hotter round.   While I have not been able to find any data for the .30-200, (which used a 200 grain bullet) I use the nickel Winchester stuff, with the smaller bullet and a max charge of my smokeless powder of choice.  This loading seems to be about the same, or perhaps slightly hotter than modern factory .38 S&W, which is downloaded due to the many old guns out there chambered for it.  Anyway, this ammo I use ONLY on my Webley, and WW2 or later made DA S&W and Colt revolvers.  You can of course chamber regular ,38 S&W ammo in those guns as well.  If ever I I find good data for .38-200 and some properly sized 200 grainers, I will again use the nickel Winchester for those loads for easy of visual identification.  

And then there's .38-44..  Not the hopped up .38 Special that was the predecessor of the .357 Magnum, but a much older round that is basically a .38 S&W with the case elongated to be the same length as the cylinder of a S&W New Model 3.  The bullet would be set entirely in the case, and the theory was that with the case being cylinder length, the gun would be more accurate as their would be less jump for the bullet to overcome.  Finding this .38-44 brass is all but impossible, and if and when you do, it is stupid expensive.  That being said, any gun chambered for this original .38-44 can safely chamber and fire BP loads of .38 S&W.

.38 S&W is a fascinating cartridge.  It has a long history with many interesting guns chambered for it over the years.  Even more when you consider the variations of the cartridge that exist.  With more modernly made guns, a rather potent round can be developed if you are so inclined.  It is a VERY addictive cartridge.

 

Colt even chambered the SAA for it, albeit in very limited numbers.   I greatly desire to find one of these guns, but am not holding my breath.


Good luck with it, and happy shooting.

 

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13 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

That undersize matters a lot as it contributes to gas cutting and leading. 

Never been an issue. I thoroughly clean after each use, never noticed any excess leading. At typical pocket pistol distances accuracy is really not important. 

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I modified a mould in order to cast 125 grain .360 bullets for my pockets. No reason to stress them any more than necessary, as I am not worried about any effectiveness other then hitting the steel plate.

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Howdy Pards

 

I previously had two 38 S&W’s, an old top-break and a WW2-vintage Smith&Wesson. Gunsmith told me the top-break was safe for factory ammo and factory-spec reloads but not hotter. I loaded some for less-than-factory-spec for the old iron and some hotter loads for the S&W. 
 

The issue that arose? I used the same brass for both loads and then (wish I had the intelligence level of a flatworm!) forgot which was which. 
 

My solution was to fire every last one of ‘em in the stronger S&W pistol and … then going forward … used only the load data for the lighter loads.

 

Some old (very old!) reloading manuals will give 38 S&W load data for the old top-breaks and hotter data for Colts and Smith&Wessons of more modern manufacture.  Both Colt and S&W manufactured 38S&W pistols well into the modern era, at least past WW2 according to some old “Gun Digest” publications.
 

Nowadays? Perhaps because of perceived legal liability issues, about all you’re going to find is data for mild loads. And that’s probably the smart thing for the reloader.

 

Side note. I have a stub-nose Ruger SP101 in 9mm Luger. It’ll handle +P 9mm loads … but that does not make for the most pleasant of shooting experiences. For it, for plinking practice, I’ve reloaded some 9’s using the light 38S&W load data and then that pistol purrs like a contented cat. And yes, those light loads will not function in my Glock 19.

 

Keep on the sunny side 

 

Adios 

 

Fort Reno Kid 

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3 hours ago, Fort Reno Kid said:

Howdy Pards

 

I previously had two 38 S&W’s, an old top-break and a WW2-vintage Smith&Wesson. Gunsmith told me the top-break was safe for factory ammo and factory-spec reloads but not hotter. I loaded some for less-than-factory-spec for the old iron and some hotter loads for the S&W. 

OP said pre 1900. That’s a whole different different ballgame than WWII vintage. 

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As black powder ammo, it was 200gn bullet over a full case of 3f... fill to  the rim, seat the bullet, done... as a smokeless its a lighter 145/146 bullet due to the increased pressures of smokeless powder. i have never had a gun fail shooting modern remington or magtech ammo out of one of my antiques and they get shot a lot! my 1st model iver johnson is used in side matches year after year and i run modern magtech or remington through it. but YMMV, do as you wish...

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