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1873 vs 1866 (reproduction) questions.


Copper Sean O Driscoll

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Currently saving my money to buy my first rifle for SASS. I am not sure what to get.  Is there any difference (other than aesthetic) in the 1866 and the 1873? 
 

any difference in length or weight for the same length barrel? 
 

Sorry for all the newbie questions. 

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The '73 has a trigger block safety that will very likely eliminate an out-of-battery discharge.  the '73 is made of Steel, vs. "gunmetal".   The '66 tarnishes, which is a good thing if you like that look.  Otherwise you'll be forever polishing it.  IIRC the Cimarron site lists the various weights of the models they carry.  Any differences will be slight.

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My wife shoots a '66 sporting rifle with 20" octagonal barrel, and I shoot a '73 pistol grip sporting rifle with 20" octagonal barrel.  She likes her "Pretty Brass" receiver but it makes the rifle a bit heavier than the '73.  If weight is an issue, you can always search for a Carbine Model of either one, they have round tapered barrels, which reduces the weight.  A little harder to find, but they are out there.

 

One of the differences is that the '73 has a lever safety that will prevent it from firing without the lever fully closed, the '66 does not have this.  I know of a bunch of folks that had that removed from their '73, but about half of the folks I know put it back in.  Personally I like it, but that's my opinion.  I know that my wife had a few out-of-battery discharges that bent the lever in her rifle a few times.  She is much better about it now, hasn't happened in a while.

 

Caveat:  You can still get an out-of-battery discharge in a '73 with the lever safety if you do bad things or try to force the lever to chamber an oversized round.  There is a video out there of Cypress Sam when it happened to him.  It will shake a person up for sure!

 

Both of the rifles can be slicked up, short-stroked, and made into rifles that will be faster than 99% of the shooters can run them.

 

Take her to a match, ask a few questions, and most folks will let her try theirs to see what she likes.  It can be a pricey investment, so be sure before you buy, unless you like guns, lots and lots of guns, then just buy one of each and let her pick! :lol:

 

 

 

 

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(I edited this because I had the drop reversed. The 60 has the most drop and the 73 is the straightest)

 

Something to consider.

The 1860, 1866 and 1873 rifle have different stock drops.

The 1860 has the most drop on the stock than the other two. You will need to stand more straight up to get down to the sight line.

The 1866 has about 3/4" less drop than the 1860. You can lean in to the stock to acquire the sight line.

The 1873 has the straightest stock of the three. You can lean down on the stock to get your sight line.

 

If you get the chance, put the barrels of these three rifles parallel to each other to see the stock drop for yourself.

The taller you are, the more stock drop you will want, unless you want to stand up straight while shooting.

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My main match rifle is a 66 in 44wcf  with a 24" barrel and when I bought it there was also a 73 44wcf. I had to get the 66 is was to my eye much nicer looking. My wife shoots a 73 I think with a 20" barrel and loves it. If I were to get another rifle in 44wcf I think it would be a 73 as I find them less of a pain to tear down for a deep cleaning.

 

Hochbauer

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As others have said there are differences, most of which are a matter of personal preference and fit. However the removable side plates of the ‘73 make cleaning of the internals much easier than the ‘66 where you remove entire side sections. Also those ‘66 edges can be razor sharp when new. As an OCD cleaner who takes down my guns after each match that alone would/did sway me. 
YMMV

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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IMHO - If you are competitive, then your choice probably should be between a Uberti 73 and a Miroku (labeled Winchester) 73.   Best parts availability, ease of assembly, support by more smiths, etc.  The Uberti 73 shows up in way more action cowboy shooter's hands than all the other guns put together.  

 

If you are driven by the looks, then choose what looks nice to you.  Only you know THAT answer.

 

A fair number of beginner cowboy shooters assume they are in it for the look and styling, then when match times get compared, they suddenly realize "they are in it to win it," and want to learn how to go fast.  Any cowboy gun is just a "parts kit already assembled by the factory", meaning you will do lots of tuning and parts upgrades to really be able to go fast.  Modern cowboy guns are not as smooth from the factory as they were when old guys in New Haven, Connecticut used to hand fit every one.

 

Fastest way to find out what trips your trigger - attend a cowboy match or three.   Realize you have chosen a bad season to start an interest in cowboy gun purchasing in Idaho, though.  If you can hold off until February and get down to End of Trail in Phoenix,

 

https://endoftrail.org/

 

you will have the "entire cowboy bazaar" open to you, including (if you ask the right cowboys) a chance to try several different guns for feel.   Come down a week early for the Fire and Ice warm-up match at Cowtown just west of Phoenix, and I'd bet folks would line up to let you try their guns on the range.

 

https://ccsa-az.com/2023-schedule-match-results/

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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I have both, the stock drop is negligible in my opinion,  the lever safety on the 73 did not prevent me from getting an out of battery  discharge,  lucky lever being bent and sore knuckles was the worst.  I shoot  black powder so cleaning is easier on the 73 since the side plate but when I do deep cleaning not a lot of extra time between the two.  I tend to shoot my 66 more purely because I match it up with my 60s Richard Masons or my opentops. The 66 is a bit heavier.

I know not much help, get to a shoot or shop and see which one you like better. 

Rafe

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i prefer the 66 , i have both and found i just like the feel of it better , ill never try to tell anyone to choose one over the other as both are perfect rifles for this purpose , try them - then buy , you can find someone near you that will allow that , or buy both as i did and have a backup , 

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16 hours ago, Copper Sean O Driscoll said:

Currently saving my money to buy my first rifle for SASS. I am not sure what to get.  Is there any difference (other than aesthetic) in the 1866 and the 1873? 
 

any difference in length or weight for the same length barrel? 
 

Sorry for all the newbie questions. 

You said you were currently saving your money to buy a rifle.  You've received a lot of good advice here.  With the price of rifles I think the very best advice would be to wait until you can have both in your hands and shoot before spending the money. 

 

Kajun

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A '66, because it is brass, runs a bit smoother out of the box. Brass against steel is like running on a bronze sleeve. An ejected case will dent it if it lands back on the action. It's a bit more work to take apart, together is a lot more. I had to put a pad on mine to raise the comb. Without it you need a face like a jackass to get any cheek weld. I like mine but all the rest of my rifles are '73s. 

My '66 runs nice, but I removed a lot of brass before it would feed and unction smoothly. You may find that a pistol grip stock will fit better than straight. I shoot LH now, the pistol grip of the 73 feels better. Because of the difference in stock angles, the straight '66 work well LH. 

 

BTW, a SRC is a no go LH, that stupid ring gets in the way. I'm not fast, or young, to me it's about smooth, feels good when the rhythm is right. 

 

Have fun.

 

What caliber do you want to go with?

 

 

 

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Howdy

 

Just so you know, the lever safety on the Winchester Model 1873, or its replicas, is not a modern lawyer driven feature. Although not on the very earliest 1873 Winchesters, the lever safety was introduced in 1879. The Model 1873 was first chambered for 44-40, which was considerably more powerful than the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge the Henry and 1866 Winchesters were chambered for. Although certainly not a power house by modern standards, my guess is the engineers thought the more powerful cartridge needed the extra safety device.

 

This Model 1873 left the factory in 1887. The two arrows are pointing to the lever safety. It is actually one piece, the part the rear arrow is pointing to is pushed up when the lever closes. That causes the front part to rise up so the trigger can be pulled.

 

pnz46kKqj

 

 

 

 

The side plates have been removed for this photo, showing the toggle links completely folded. Yes, only one screw needs to be removed to take off the side plates in case a deep cleaning is needed. The 1866 requires two screws to be removed, and I believe the lever needs to be removed also to remove the side plates.

 

 

The Henry is even worse, the side plates are dovetailed into the frame. The lever screw needs to be removed and the side plates need to be driven out with a soft faced hammer. And the edges of the side plates are razor sharp, trust me on this I have the scars to prove it.

 

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The upside it, if you are shooting Black Powder with either 44-40 or 38-40 in any of these rifles, the brass will expand and keep almost all the fouling in the bore, very little will wind up inside the action. I have not taken the side plates off my Henry in years, no need to, hardly any fouling gets inside.

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For my money, because of the lever safety and the removable side plates, which make it far easier to clean the rifle, I'd recommend the '73, pencils down.

 

Now all you have to decide is round or octagonal, or even half round/half octagonal barrel, 18', 20' or 24' inch barrel length, straight stock or pistol grip, and curved or shotgun style butt.

 

See how easy i made it for you? ;-)

 

Any way you go, budget a few hundred dollars more for the short stroke and action job you will undoubtedly want, sooner or later.

 

Cheers!

FJT

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1 hour ago, Frederick Jackson Turner said:

...Now all you have to decide is round or octagonal, or even half round/half octagonal barrel, 18', 20' or 24' inch barrel length,...

Don't forget 16", 19", and 30". 

:)

Cheers!

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On 12/17/2022 at 11:28 AM, Copper Sean O Driscoll said:

Currently saving my money to buy my first rifle for SASS. I am not sure what to get.  Is there any difference (other than aesthetic) in the 1866 and the 1873? 
 

any difference in length or weight for the same length barrel? 
 

Sorry for all the newbie questions. 

 

Don’t be sorry for asking questions, that’s what this forum is for.   You’ve been given a lot of good advice, the best is go to a couple of matches to see what feels best for you.  As far as ‘66 vs ‘73 the major differences have already been stated, and other than the lever safety the internals of reproductions are the same.   Aside from the model rifle a bigger thing to consider is what caliber you want to shoot.  Some calibers are more suited for black powder, the “-“ ones (38-40, 44-40) were designed with black powder in mind.  The .38 with smokeless powder is probably the most common in SASS.  Another point to consider are you going to be reloading or buying premade ammo.  Commercial black powder ammo is very limited and expensive, so if $$ is a concern the smokeless .38 would be the cheapest to shoot.  At most matches folks will let you try their guns if you tell them that you’re trying to figure out what to get, and who knows you might be able to buy used and save some money. 

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ill second that - dont ever feel bad about asking , you can learn more by accident in a thread like this than if you intentionally research on your own , most of what you get here is first hand info from a current or prior owner and we seldom hold back on our experiences , you get what we actually know to be facts and our opinions of the topic , you can do with that as you please but its all good info to be considered , best to consider before you invest - and as stated try before as well , 

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I'm a little more optimistic on the fouling issue with cartridges other than the "-" ones.  I've been shooting an 1873 Uberti Sporting rifle in 45 Colt since 1987, most of it with black powder.  I shot CAS in the old "Black Powder" category, wherein you had to use BP and had to shoot percussion revolvers.  Since the fixed sight "Old Army" had yet to make an appearance they were regulated to the "Modern" category, unless one welded up the adjustable rear sight.  BP was also required in rifle and shotgun.  The only difference between it and today's "Frontiersman" is that duelist was not the required shooting style.  Ah... the good ole days!

 

Anyway, the statements about the "-" cartridges (caliber is a diameter measurement, not the same as chambering), sealing the chamber better than straight walled cartridges is true, right up until the point you open the action.  Watch any BP shooter using a toggle link rifle and you'll see a bit of smoke (fouling) coming out the action at the lifter.  So not all fouling is directed down the bore of even the "-" cartridges.  Yes, in 45 Colt, I probably see more fouling in the carrier area than a "-" cartridge might produce... but, I've learned it's quite manageable.  I "clearance" my carriers so that I have an extra 5 - 10-thousandths of clearance along the sides of the carrier in the mortise.  I can usually shoot a 3-day 12-stage match without bothering to clean my rifle.   When I bought my Uberti 1860 Henry in 45 Colt, I couldn't shoot a complete stage (10 rounds) without the carrier sticking in the mortise and having to force the lever back and forth to complete the stage.  Frustrating.  I cleaned the carrier and tried a second stage, it gummed up even faster, clearly I didn't get all the fouling out after stage 1.  I shot the rest of the match with my 1873.  Upon arriving home, I tore the 1860 down and clearanced the carrier to nearly the same as my 1873.  Now I can shoot the same 12 stage match with it over 3 days without cleaning.  Evidenced by me entries in two categories for 2 years running at "Comin' AtCha" in 2020 & 2021.  One of which was Frontiersman each year (2021 being Frontiersman Gunfighter), in which I used the 1873 for one category and the 1860 for the other.  Neither rifle required cleaning before the end of the match. 

 

Here's a video of my last of 12 stages over 3 days of EOT 2021.  Again, no time spent cleaning the rifle between stages or even a day's shooting.

https://youtu.be/n7YWNCbw8OA

 

Yes, I had trouble on this stage with my pistols... wet caps don't ignite well... I'd kept the pistols out of the rain, but forgot about my caps in the straight-line capper being exposed.

 

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i like both but I too prefer the 66 carbine in 44-40, I have had both but sold the 73 (wish I would have kept it), and found that the 73 is very finicky regarding cartridge OAL (Over All Length).  Could have been just that 73 but others have had the same issues.  As for the drop, personally it didn't make a difference for me.  But, like others have said, try them both maybe several times before you buy as they are a major purchase.

 

Charlie

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18 minutes ago, Charlie T Waite said:

... found that the 73 is very finicky regarding cartridge OAL (Over All Length).  Could have been just that 73 but others have had the same issues....

The carrier in the '66 and '73 is the exact same part (large or small, depending on caliber of course).  So they should be the same as far as required cartridge OAL.  Over the years those carriers have changed somewhat, so if one rifle was older than another, that could make a difference.

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Good info here about personal preferences and reasoning.  But don't try to decide just by reading.  Go to matches and carefully observe the different guns in actual use.  Talk to the experienced shooter/owners and ask to handle the actual guns.  If you can, find someone who will let you shoot their guns.   

But be aware that very few 66s or 73s are comparable in terms of aftermarket smithing to other guns of the same model.   A 73 isn't necessarily like every (or any) other 73.   In most cases, the differences afforded by internal fitting and surfacing, and things like modified springs or short stroke kits certainly do change the feel, reliability,  and performance of these guns.

 

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After you narrow down your choices you have another issue which is where to buy. You can buy your model brand new from a gunsmith who has short stroked and smoothed it or you might find one used which had this work done already at a lower price. 

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On 12/23/2022 at 1:17 PM, Griff said:

I'm a little more optimistic on the fouling issue with cartridges other than the "-" ones.  I've been shooting an 1873 Uberti Sporting rifle in 45 Colt since 1987, most of it with black powder.  I shot CAS in the old "Black Powder" category, wherein you had to use BP and had to shoot percussion revolvers.  Since the fixed sight "Old Army" had yet to make an appearance they were regulated to the "Modern" category, unless one welded up the adjustable rear sight.  BP was also required in rifle and shotgun.  The only difference between it and today's "Frontiersman" is that duelist was not the required shooting style.  Ah... the good ole days!

 

Anyway, the statements about the "-" cartridges (caliber is a diameter measurement, not the same as chambering), sealing the chamber better than straight walled cartridges is true, right up until the point you open the action.  Watch any BP shooter using a toggle link rifle and you'll see a bit of smoke (fouling) coming out the action at the lifter.  So not all fouling is directed down the bore of even the "-" cartridges.  Yes, in 45 Colt, I probably see more fouling in the carrier area than a "-" cartridge might produce... but, I've learned it's quite manageable.  I "clearance" my carriers so that I have an extra 5 - 10-thousandths of clearance along the sides of the carrier in the mortise.  I can usually shoot a 3-day 12-stage match without bothering to clean my rifle.   When I bought my Uberti 1860 Henry in 45 Colt, I couldn't shoot a complete stage (10 rounds) without the carrier sticking in the mortise and having to force the lever back and forth to complete the stage.  Frustrating.  I cleaned the carrier and tried a second stage, it gummed up even faster, clearly I didn't get all the fouling out after stage 1.  I shot the rest of the match with my 1873.  Upon arriving home, I tore the 1860 down and clearanced the carrier to nearly the same as my 1873.  Now I can shoot the same 12 stage match with it over 3 days without cleaning.  Evidenced by me entries in two categories for 2 years running at "Comin' AtCha" in 2020 & 2021.  One of which was Frontiersman each year (2021 being Frontiersman Gunfighter), in which I used the 1873 for one category and the 1860 for the other.  Neither rifle required cleaning before the end of the match. 

 

Here's a video of my last of 12 stages over 3 days of EOT 2021.  Again, no time spent cleaning the rifle between stages or even a day's shooting.

https://youtu.be/n7YWNCbw8OA

 

Yes, I had trouble on this stage with my pistols... wet caps don't ignite well... I'd kept the pistols out of the rain, but forgot about my caps in the straight-line capper being exposed.

 

 

I’m shooting BP rifle rounds in .45c without any problems, but I anneal my cases, I didn’t want to bring a whole ‘nother thing for the OP’s question.  My point was to let him think about more than just the type of rifle, buying is one thing owning is another.

 

BTW - Griff it was good seeing you at CAC this year and with those annealed cases the only rifle cleaning I did was a bore snake at the end of the day.  

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