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On the subject of squibs...


Black Angus McPherson

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There have been a couple threads about squibs lately, and it got me wondering about Cap and Ball guns.

 

I have had a few, maybe several, times in the last few years when the cap on my C&B guns have popped but did not ignite the powder charge.  I have never had the experience of such a Failure to Fire pushing the bullet even partially out of the chamber.  Frankly, I've never heard of another C&B shooter complaining of such a phenomenon.  Yet, I think we've all heard of such occurrences with cartridge guns.

 

My question is for all Cap and Ball shooters - Have you ever had an instance when the percussion cap went off, failing to ignite the powder charge, which resulted in the bullet being pushed out of the chamber?

 

Just wondering,

 

Angus

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I have not had this experience though have had many caps go off and fail to ignite the powder charge.  This is why I load real black powder in cap and ball revolvers.  Real black powder ignites more reliably than subs.

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A long time ago I was told by someone that I know is very knolagable about these things that black powder substitutes need a higher egnition temperature to egnite then real black powder.  I was able to verify this at a Civil War reenactment.  I  met a man that was having trouble getting his musket to fire.  He had drilled out the cone but could not  get the musket to go boom.

He told me that he was using Pyrodex for  his cartridges and I suggested that he try one of mine made with real black powder.  After cleaning out the Pyrodex he tride 3 of my cartridges and they all went boom.  I sold him some of the extra packages I had and when I saw him Saturday night after the battle he told me every one he got from me went boom.  There are some other factors involved in musket blanks but this is the main differance.

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5 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

A long time ago I was told by someone that I know is very knolagable about these things that black powder substitutes need a higher egnition temperature to egnite then real black powder.  I was able to verify this at a Civil War reenactment.  I  met a man that was having trouble getting his musket to fire.  He had drilled out the cone but could not  get the musket to go boom.

He told me that he was using Pyrodex for  his cartridges and I suggested that he try one of mine made with real black powder.  After cleaning out the Pyrodex he tride 3 of my cartridges and they all went boom.  I sold him some of the extra packages I had and when I saw him Saturday night after the battle he told me every one he got from me went boom.  There are some other factors involved in musket blanks but this is the main differance.

 

Pyrodex is know for being hard to ignite. Some inline muzzle loaders have issues igniting the pellets. From my research this has more to do with poorly drilled and dirty flash channels than it has to do with the pellets themselves.

 

I haven't had any ignition issues with APP or Triple 7. in cartridge guns or my C&B pistols.

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The above recommendations are spot on.  Never use subs with cap and ball. I prefer real 3F in my Navies.  Make sure the chambers are clean and dry.  Make sure the nipples are clean with no obstructions from the cleaning process.  
 

Gringo

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In 36 years of shooting 1851 Navies in cowboy action (starting the year BEFORE SASS was born), I've had one round ball stuck in the forcing cone.  I was a pretty simple matter of taking the barrel off and then removing the ball.  I can only surmise that in using my flask I simply dropped an short charge, just the exact amount of powder to get the ball moving that far.  Probably, the result of inattention or distraction.  

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21 hours ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

My question is for all Cap and Ball shooters - Have you ever had an instance when the percussion cap went off, failing to ignite the powder charge, which resulted in the bullet being pushed out of the chamber?

 

Just wondering,

 

Angus

With cap and ball the ball is pressed tight against the powder charge and if it is the correct size will shave off a ring of lead when seated.  SO if the cap goes off and does not egnite the power then there is nothing to push the ball foward into the cylinder.  A cap going off and not egniting the powder charge is not the same as a squib.  If there were too light of a charge as Griff described above and the then the power actually egnited and pushed the ball forward, that would be a squib.  With metallic cartridges a squib could be from too light of a powder charge or no powder at all.

 

I have seen someone use too small of a ball and as they shot the revolver the undersized balls moved forward from recoil and that jambed the cylinder.

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This has [de]volved into a much more entertaining thread than I expected.  I found great humor in it when the discussion turned to the use of substitutes instead of real BP.  I had said nothing about real BP vs. Subs.  For what it's worth I use real BP in my CB revolvers.

 

Griff mentioned having a ball stuck in the forcing cone after a light charge, or partial charge, was ignited by the cap.  That seems to be a "real" squib.  But doesn't quite answer the question about only the percussion cap going off.

 

Cowtown Scout admonished me that if only the cap goes off and does not ignite the charge it isn't a squib.  I can get behind that argument.  But, pushing my own post further off topic, what would you call it?  Failure to fire?  The cap fired.  What would you call a cartridge that only fires the primer, does not ignite the powder charge, but still pushes the bullet out of the chamber?   Isn't that a squib?  What if the primer fires but does not push the bullet out of the chamber?  What's that?

 

I am not the least upset by the turn of the conversation, so please feel free to comment on any portion that sparked an interest in you.

 

I am still interested in knowing if anyone has had only the power of a percussion cap push a proper sized bullet out of the chamber of a Cap and Ball revolver.

 

Thanks,

 

Angus

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A cap that fires, yet fails to set off the powder charge in a C&B revolver is much different animal than a cartridge primer doing the exact same thing.  For one, the C&B has a "pressure relief valve" at the rear of the charge, that flash hole will vent some of the pressure caused by the cap firing back against the cap and possibly around the nipple.  The cartridge primer is firmly held in the case of the cartridge and all pressure must be released forward.  Secondly the powder charge in a C&B revolver is weightier than its cartridge counterpart (smokeless), and lastly, the percussion cap has far less brisance than a standard cartridge primer.

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Hi Angus

I was not admonishing you at all.  I was just trying to explain that a cap not egniting the powder charge was differnt than a primer not egniting powder in a metallic cartrige.

Scout

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52 minutes ago, Griff said:

A cap that fires, yet fails to set off the powder charge in a C&B revolver is much different animal than a cartridge primer doing the exact same thing.  For one, the C&B has a "pressure relief valve" at the rear of the charge, that flash hole will vent some of the pressure caused by the cap firing back against the cap and possibly around the nipple.  The cartridge primer is firmly held in the case of the cartridge and all pressure must be released forward.  Secondly the powder charge in a C&B revolver is weightier than its cartridge counterpart (smokeless), and lastly, the percussion cap has far less brisance than a standard cartridge primer.

 

I agree.  Those are all valid reasons why a percussion cap alone won't push a ball out of the chamber.  I've just been wondering if anyone had any experience with it ever actually happening.  So far, the answer is no.  That is really the answer I expected, but it is in the realm of possibility that I could, someday, be wrong. :D

 

 

8 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

Hi Angus

I was not admonishing you at all.  I was just trying to explain that a cap not egniting the powder charge was differnt than a primer not egniting powder in a metallic cartrige.

Scout

 

Aw, heck, I was just funnin'.  Tweren't no offense taken, nor meant, by me at all.

 

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

Angus

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