Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Junior Gunfighter


Rye Miles #13621

Recommended Posts

Only thing I see about the proposed change for Juniors, is then every other age-based group will want it also.   Basically, you'll do away with the Gunfighter categories.  So, how do Gunfighters and Frontier Cartridge Gunfighters, (and all the age permutations of those), feel about about losing their niche??   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 72
  • Created
  • Last Reply
26 minutes ago, McCandless said:

Only thing I see about the proposed change for Juniors, is then every other age-based group will want it also.   Basically, you'll do away with the Gunfighter categories.  So, how do Gunfighters and Frontier Cartridge Gunfighters, (and all the age permutations of those), feel about about losing their niche??   

Is that a scare tactic or are you just misinformed? You can shoot duelist in an age based category and there is still a duelist category. You just can't shoot Gunfighter in an age based category. You also can't shoot adjustable sight revolvers in Gunfighter but you can if you hold the gun with two hands. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the Shooters Handbook:

Shooting Style categories allow participants to compete with others utilizing the same shooting style (e.g., shooting revolvers one-handed instead of two-handed). In addition, every shooting style can also be subdivided by gender, age, and propellant depending on demand and sanctioning category mandates. Failure to comply with the rules for any shooting style category will result in the progressive penalty for “Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the shooting category” 

 

This states that anyone can shoot Gunfighter if they want independant of age. If a Club wants to have an age breakdown they can. Why do the rules need to be changed. If the Junior can handle the firearms properly and shoot Gunfighter or Duelist - there is nothing I can find in the rules to prevent it. But, They would be shooting in that class NOT JUNIOR unless they club they are shooting at decides to have a Junior Gunfighter category. (Same as Elder Statesman Gunfighter)

 

The only issue in rules is the statement that if a upper catagory is not filled:

If an offered category does not meet the minimum mandates, the entrant(s) will be entered into the next category down as the categories collapse toward the base categories until the minimum mandate is fulfilled. If you have a Junior Gunfighter they can not move down (age) and would have to be moved up.

 

There is also the statement:

Exceptions to the category mandate include Buckaroo/Buckarette, Junior, Elder Statesman/Grand Dame, Cattle Baron/Cattle Baroness, El Patron/La Patrona, and El Rey/La Reina.   -- So now if I have a Junior Gunfighter then will this be a mandated category- I would be against this.

 

As for closly observing Juniors:

NOTE: Parental consent and supervision is required for all competitors under 21 years of age.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I've been "Under Close Supervision" for years.  Nothing to worry about.

Kajun & I have often wondered if you noticed. Now we know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have 3 boys that will move up to Young Gun this year.  All 3 have been active in SASS for a number of years.  All 3 are very good shooters, exhibiting excellent gun handling, and fully understand the rules.  Any one of them could transition to gunfighter and be comfortable shooting with the gunfighters.  They didn't just become Young Guns, they are also young men.  I can only surmise that this is the case with other Young Guns throughout SASS.  My vote would be No to shooting gunfighter in YG.  We gave them wings.  Let them FLY!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, McCandless said:

Only thing I see about the proposed change for Juniors, is then every other age-based group will want it also.   Basically, you'll do away with the Gunfighter categories.  So, how do Gunfighters and Frontier Cartridge Gunfighters, (and all the age permutations of those), feel about about losing their niche??   

Yeah. Just like the Duelist category was done away with since we can shoot duelist in any category. LOL. The sky isn’t falling. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I've been "Under Close Supervision" for years.  Nothing to worry about.

Nurse Ratchett’s been looking for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I thought the question at hand was about allowing Juniors to shoot GF, not expanding the rules to allow all age categories to shoot GF? 
 

What negative consequences would result from that change?

Why would you allow juniors to do it and not everyone? Why make a change for whatever tiny number of juniors might choose to do it without offering everyone the opportunity?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am a absolute NO on this. If a junior wants to and has the ability/skill level to shoot gunfighter then move into the gunfighter category. 

 

 

JEL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Fretless said:

I can see both sides of this coin.  One last pitch for the change.

The fact that youth shooters are eligible for open age categories is widely misunderstood.  As a result, parents prevent or discourage children from trying all the various options.  This change would eliminate that barrier... at least for those in the 14-17 age range.  

 

1 hour ago, Mister Badly said:

Why would you allow juniors to do it and not everyone? Why make a change for whatever tiny number of juniors might choose to do it without offering everyone the opportunity?

I would think that if you support giving everyone the opportunity you would view giving juniors the opportunity as a step in the right direction?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

I would think that if you support giving everyone the opportunity you would view giving juniors the opportunity as a step in the right direction?

Well if you can send me back in time it might:P. Listen, I'm not anti junior. I think the "except Gunfighter" language in the shb is ridiculous and discriminatory for no good reason. If there is a good reason then that reason applies to everyone regardless of age. Don't make an exception to an exception. Get rid of the exception. I don't know where this idea of a limited change came from but the fact it is limited tells me eliminating the exception all together is not on the table. Why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mister Badly said:

Well if you can send me back in time it might:P. Listen, I'm not anti junior. I think the "except Gunfighter" language in the shb is ridiculous and discriminatory for no good reason. If there is a good reason then that reason applies to everyone regardless of age. Don't make an exception to an exception. Get rid of the exception. I don't know where this idea of a limited change came from but the fact it is limited tells me eliminating the exception all together is not on the table. Why?

I have no idea.  I'm just taking the position of not letting perfect be the enemy of good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I have no idea.  I'm just taking the position of not letting perfect be the enemy of good.

I can understand that. But  after years of contract administration and negotiation I have found exceptions which are not well founded to be the enemy. Whoever pushed this decision forward is more than welcome to explain why an exception to an exception or the exception itself is a good idea. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know I have made some tongue-in-cheek comments above, but I do have a couple of serious comments here, but before that...

 

Anybody else remember when you had to be "Approved" to shoot Gunfighter?  I guess that would have qualified as "Adult Supervision".  B)  There was an actual process and when approved you got an "Official Gunfighter Card" as I recall.  That was the case back in 2002 when I started and was the reason I worked my way up to Gunfighter, I wanted that card.  Of course, by the time I got there, they had done away with that process and, after a couple of the matches I shot last year, they would probably be asking for it back. :lol:

 

As to the new rule proposal...

  1. My first thought was, "Not a fan of this, but it would allow them to use the .22's so that would be a good place to start them out."  Then I reread the rules to see that only Buckaroo's/Buckaretes (13 & Under) can use .22s.  The Junior Boys/Girls (16 & Under), which is the group we are talking about, must use SASS approved calibers like the other age based categories, so there is no advantage for them in doing this.
     
  2. My second thought was, "Does allowing Gunfighter in the Junior Category keep the playing field level for the other Junior Boys/Girls?"  That's a hard one.  We all KNOW that Gunfighters have an advantage over all the other styles which is why they win every match every where. :P (Dang, we really need a SARCASM emoji on this site.)  As a FC Gunfighter, I can say with certainty, that there is an advantage on some stages, but there is a disadvantage on others, it is generally a wash depending on how the match stages are setup and written.
     
  3. My third thought was, "If they have to shoot standard SASS approved calibers anyway, and there is no advantage to them against the other Juniors, then what do they get from this that justifies a rule change?"  The only advantage that I see is that they are not competing against the adult Gunfighters (Assuming all the other Gunfighters qualify as "Adults" and, at least in my case, that is questionable! :rolleyes:).  Is that worth a rule change?  I'm not convinced.
     
  4. My final thought (4 a day is my limit) is that based on past history, at the end of the day this will inevitably lead to one of two outcomes, either Junior Gunfighters will become a separate category (along with Junior Duelists, etc., resulting in 16 additional categories, 8 Boys & 8 Girls) or the Gunfighter style will eventually be extended to all of the other Categories diluting the Gunfighter Category.  Neither of those outcomes, at least in my opinion, is an advantage to the sport.

So, while I support Junior Shooters every chance I get, it is my opinion that while well meaning, this will have to get a NO vote from me.  If the Juniors in question are skilled enough to shoot Gunfighter with Standard Caliber pistols, then they are skilled enough to be shooting with the adults in the Gunfighter Category.  Will they get beat, probably at first, but that is no different from the rest of us.  Heck some of us get beat ALL THE TIME :lol: but that doesn't stop us from trying or having fun.

 

That's my $0.05 (I'm feeling generous today), your mileage may vary,

 

Dogmeat

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

Anybody else remember when you had to be "Approved" to shoot Gunfighter?  I guess that would have qualified as "Adult Supervision".  B)  There was an actual process and when approved you got an "Official Gunfighter Card" as I recall.  That was the case back in 2002 when I started and was the reason I worked my way up to Gunfighter, I wanted that card.  Of course, by the time I got there, they had done away with that process and, after a couple of the matches I shot last year, they would probably be asking for it back.

 

I would like to hear from our senior SASS members (see above) who were part of the creation of the existing rule.  Why was that exception put in place?  I think I know why, but regarding this rule change, I see a value in knowing the original thoughts/reason.

 

THEN, I would like to hear why the original thoughts/reason no longer applies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I am not an authority on the matter, I am old and been at this 20+ years, so I guess I count as a senior...:rolleyes:

 

As I recall it had to do with concerns involving having two loaded guns out at a time, one in each hand.  Prior to that approval process, gunfighter was not allowed.  There were safety concerns regarding muzzle control, how issues such as gun jams would be resolved, and concerns about moving with loaded guns, basically safety related items.

 

After a couple of years of witnessing gunfighters performing safely in those situations, it was determined that the approval process was no longer needed at the SASS level and it was left to the clubs and other shooters to determine an individual's ability to shoot gunfighter safely.  That's my recollection on the matter anyway. Hopefully Palewolf will join in as I am 99% sure that he knows all about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

THEN, I would like to hear why the original thoughts/reason no longer applies

As would I. I'm afraid this is simply a targeted vote to obtain the desired result rather that fix the problem for all affected. If ALL affected don't receive relief from the exception I will be rethinking my support for an organization which doesn't treat me equally. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's already in the rules with age pacific styles. I have been to matches and seen shot categories, Gunfighter, Senior Gunfighter, Silver Senior Gunfighter and have read of matches with Elder Statesman Gunfighter. Now just add Junior Gunfighter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2022 at 6:31 PM, Mister Badly said:

I just have no idea why this is being presented as a "juniors only " fix. Allow Gunfighter in all age based categories. Any argument against doing that applies equally to juniors. 

 

1 hour ago, Mister Badly said:

 If ALL affected don't receive relief from the exception I will be rethinking my support for an organization which doesn't treat me equally. 

I have no idea why this is even being presented AT ALL. If you want to shoot gunfighter then shoot gunfighter. If your a gunfighter and don't like the gunfighter rules? Then petition to change those.  I like having two handed shooters, one handed shooters, and gunfighters separated. You want to shoot mixed styles depending on the stage? There's a category for that. 

 

As for your last comment, relief? In who's eyes? Yours? And then if you don't get your way you'll quit.... well...Bye. 

 

JEL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, John E. Law said:

 

I have no idea why this is even being presented AT ALL. If you want to shoot gunfighter then shoot gunfighter. If your a gunfighter and don't like the gunfighter rules? Then petition to change those.  I like having two handed shooters, one handed shooters, and gunfighters separated. You want to shoot mixed styles depending on the stage? There's a category for that. 

 

As for your last comment, relief? In who's eyes? Yours? And then if you don't get your way you'll quit.... well...Bye. 

 

JEL

Two handed and one handed shooters are not separated. Only gunfighter style can't be  shot in age based groups. I don't know why. But now they are voting on an exception to the Gunfighter exception for juniors only. Why? B-Western is a category that allows any shooting style including Gunfighter. If this vote passes juniors will be allowed to shoot any style also. None of the other groups will have that option. I didn't ask for a change nor did I expect one but I do expect to be treated fairly by an organization I pay to be a member of. My membership expires in May. I will decide then whether or not I will continue my membership. I won't stop shooting monthly matches or setting up stages or my safety role on my clubs board. SASS membership is not required for those things. Quit? No. After May I would not be allowed to participate in sanctioned matches anymore which would be a shame. I just started shooting those matches in 2021 and have enjoyed meeting new people at them. I am a man of principles and sometimes adhering to them costs only me. C'est la vie. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Junior is an age-based category.  As such Gunfighter is not an allowed shooting style.  This change is unwarranted no matter how you wish to frame the logic behind the change.  Frankly, if my son/daughter wanted to shoot gunfighter style, they would be encouraged to sign up as a Gunfighter.  The majority of clubs I've shot at have far more "gun-fighter friendly" stages than not.  That then gives an advantage to the Junior that would be allowed to use that style.  I see this as a silly, selfish request.  If there are enough Juniors wanting to shoot gunfighter against other Junior gunfighters, then have a category for them.  Leave age-based categories (including Junior), alone!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Want to shoot gunfighter ok 16 & under shoot this and when you turn 17 then go, Gunfighter under the Shooting Style Categories of Gunfighter Style. Thats my opinion on this. We certainly have way too many categories and to allow this what are we going to have. Do not take me wrong I want to see lots of youngsters involved both male & female, but we got to look at categories' how many more do we want in this.

This is my opinion on this. Most of the categories 35-37 are protected. We have around 125 categories which got to have at least 5 for Women and 10 for Men's categories. I further say leave it the way it is.

Well, that's its folks so long for now, Merry Christmas & Happy Holiday Season

Best to you & yours.

Jackrabbit Joe #414

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2022 at 6:31 PM, Mister Badly said:

I just have no idea why this is being presented as a "juniors only " fix. Allow Gunfighter in all age based categories. Any argument against doing that applies equally to juniors. 

Apparently it was originally presented at EOT a bit differently.TG_Minutes_EOT_2022.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/16/2022 at 9:25 PM, Mister Badly said:

Two handed and one handed shooters are not separated. Only gunfighter style can't be  shot in age based groups. I don't know why. But now they are voting on an exception to the Gunfighter exception for juniors only. Why? B-Western is a category that allows any shooting style including Gunfighter. If this vote passes juniors will be allowed to shoot any style also. None of the other groups will have that option. I didn't ask for a change nor did I expect one but I do expect to be treated fairly by an organization I pay to be a member of. My membership expires in May. I will decide then whether or not I will continue my membership. I won't stop shooting monthly matches or setting up stages or my safety role on my clubs board. SASS membership is not required for those things. Quit? No. After May I would not be allowed to participate in sanctioned matches anymore which would be a shame. I just started shooting those matches in 2021 and have enjoyed meeting new people at them. I am a man of principles and sometimes adhering to them costs only me. C'est la vie. 

I respect your opinion, but I’m not sure protesting a rule change that expands options for kids but not adults is a hill worth dying on.

 

You’re saying if kids get treated differently than you do you’ll take your marbles and go home?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I respect your opinion, but I’m not sure protesting a rule change that expands options for kids but not adults is a hill worth dying on.

 

You’re saying if kids get treated differently than you do you’ll take your marbles and go home?

 

 

It's not about kids. It's about going through the process to change a rule for one group, whatever the age group, when it should be all age groups. The fact the group being offered is in most instances, but not all, the least experienced makes it all the more confusing. I can shoot every weekend at local matches without being a SASS member so I'm not dying on any hill. The statement is mainly an indicator of my level of disappointment with what I consider a poorly thought out and unfair rule change. And maybe I would like to jump into your category from time to time and use whatever skills I possess to whup ya good!! Lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Mister Badly said:

It's not about kids. It's about going through the process to change a rule for one group, whatever the age group, when it should be all age groups. The fact the group being offered is in most instances, but not all, the least experienced makes it all the more confusing. I can shoot every weekend at local matches without being a SASS member so I'm not dying on any hill. The statement is mainly an indicator of my level of disappointment with what I consider a poorly thought out and unfair rule change. And maybe I would like to jump into your category from time to time and use whatever skills I possess to whup ya good!! Lol

49er tends to be a crowded category, but by all means join the crowd if you want to!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.