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Smoke Factor Table?


Not Dead Ed

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1 hour ago, Renegade Roper said:

As a "smokiless" shooter being asked by our TG our opinion on how to vote on this I have some questions.   

The SASS Standard load recipe is very straightforward, and the test procedure is outlined in the handbook.  SASS headquarters does not provide these test loads, so as part of what I see as my responsibilities a TG, I made up 50 rounds by following the recipe exactly.  We have these rounds available for a protest at any match of the two clubs for which I am TG.  In the 5 years we've had them, no one has filed a protest.  If someone did, we would follow the procedures and judge accordingly...The fact is that, yes, the outlined test ultimately is subjective, but is the only practical method.   In the 16 years I have been shooting BP exclusively, I have seen no more than a couple of shooters whose loads were suspicious, but have never known a protest to be filed.  I did hear that one competitor was approached by a Match Director with a concern that was corrected for the next match, but that purely is hearsay.  

 

As for my personal opinion, as I have said elsewhere, folks are free to consider me a "Black Powder Snob," but my objection to the proposal is basing a Black Powder Standard on the use of a substitute as the propellant.  Genuine BP is not universally unavailable, and a couple of pounds of it would make up sufficient test loads for a large number of clubs.  Considering the paucity of protests on smoke, a few rounds loaded with genuine BP would last a very long time.

 

CS

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14 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

What is the opinion on the amount of smoke made in this video?

Rifle is a 32-20, 12-gauge shotgun and 38 pistols

I'm not a regular BP shooter, but that looks fine to me. In dead humid air he surely would've obscured the targets and given the TO black lung.:lol:

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3 hours ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

What is the opinion on the amount of smoke made in this video?

Rifle is a 32-20, 12-gauge shotgun and 38 pistols

 

As the level of smoke varies depending on the weather it is impossible to say.

Comparing the level of smoke out of a pistol to that of a rifle is comparing apples to oranges.

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I know those guys! As a matter of fact, that looks like the Tri State held at the Harvard club this summer. Yes?

 

Anyway, it looks fine to me.

 

As has been stated, the amount of smoke visible will vary with the relative humidity, whether or not the sun is out, and the angle the viewer is watching from.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbyTnUjxQMw

 

The video above is from 5 months ago. According to the video, Estes is on track for producing Goex  with availability at dealers by 2/1/23. 

 

For those not familiar w/ Hogdon's sale of Goex to Estes here is some information  https://www.ilovemuzzleloading.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-estes-energetics-buying-goex

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43 minutes ago, Grizzly Peak Jake SASS 256 said:

...The video above is from 5 months ago. According to the video, Estes is.. on track for producing Goex  with availability at dealers by 2/1/23. ...

That's good, although I recently bought enough Scheutzen to last me a long time!

 

I am wondering if anyone has done any smoke comparisons between just different brands of real BP.  Say, FFFg Goex vs. FFFg Scheutzen vs. FFFg Swiss, etc.  disregarding the subs.  If they are all pretty similar, then the answer to what powder for the standard is pretty easy.

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If you load your ammo to whatever you choose and get a "no misses but not clean" ruling from your spotters at the end of the stage, then you make enough smoke. Don't make this harder than it is. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

For those interested the shooting order in the video I posted earlier is as follows:

1) 1.0cc of GOEX 2fg

2) 1.0cc of GOEX 3fg

3) 1.0cc of APP 3fg

4) 0.7cc of APP 3fg

 

In my opinion the only load that produced significantly less smoke was the last load of 0.7cc of APP.  All the other loads were pretty close.  Again I stand by my earlier claim that humidity and wind make far more of a difference in perceived smoke than the type of powder so long as the amount of powder is the same.  

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I am new to black powder shooting. Do I understand that at the end of the day, regardless of the criteria used, someone just eye balls the actual smoke to see if it is enough.  The only issue is what load to compare it to?

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On 1/3/2023 at 8:21 AM, July Smith said:

For those interested the shooting order in the video I posted earlier is as follows:

1) 1.0cc of GOEX 2fg

2) 1.0cc of GOEX 3fg

3) 1.0cc of APP 3fg

4) 0.7cc of APP 3fg

 

In my opinion the only load that produced significantly less smoke was the last load of 0.7cc of APP.  All the other loads were pretty close.  Again I stand by my earlier claim that humidity and wind make far more of a difference in perceived smoke than the type of powder so long as the amount of powder is the same.  

I knew that one of them was BP only because I could see flame when the video frame happened to catch it. :)

 

As far as humidity and wind, that is true.  But if someone's load is challenged, it would be compared to the standard with one shot right after the other, so the humidity and wind would be the same for the comparison.

 

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13 hours ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

I am new to black powder shooting. Do I understand that at the end of the day, regardless of the criteria used, someone just eye balls the actual smoke to see if it is enough.  The only issue is what load to compare it to?

JWH, you should be able to have your way with this one if pressed.

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Brought this up to everyone who showed up last Mo. - & called a few more.  Explained the changes up for vote and the consensus of the members was no to both as currently written.   As I was told RE:

 

#1) Juniors can currently shoot Gun Fighter if they choose to and that most that choose to usually shoot it better than some adults.

 

#2) As for the test rounds for the smoke comparisons.  We have several shooters that shoot the Dark-Side from time to time.  Of note regarding the subs is that Triple Seven and Pyrodex make less smoke than APP.  Their opinion is that if the wording were 1.0 cc. of either real BP / BP Sub  (excluding APP) and changing the bullet weight to that of one that is commonly used in .38 Cal would work.

 

FWIW - As Sedalia Dave said "Few smokeless shooters have any experience with BP and even fewer understand the smoke standard. "  I know for sure of only 1 time a challenge was made & heard of another in the past 15+ years.  Doing the test is a pain as it takes up a bit of time away from the posse for the shooter being challenged, the tester, & the observers.

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Jailhouse Jim, if you don't think it's being enforced, then make an official protest of everyone who you think isn't meeting it.

 

Since it was put in place, in the hundreds of matches I'be attended, I have protested everyone I thought wasn't meeting the standard....

which means I haven't made any protests.

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22 minutes ago, Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L said:

Jailhouse Jim, if you don't think it's being enforced, then make an official protest of everyone who you think isn't meeting it.

 

Since it was put in place, in the hundreds of matches I'be attended, I have protested everyone I thought wasn't meeting the standard....

which means I haven't made any protests.

You have observed many Capt B.  We have shot a many a match together ourselves.  I am not saying some loads are not questionable  as Jim may have witnessed but maybe not to point of protesting to that observer.   At the end of the day, I believe we as BP shooters "police" amongst our fellow shooters.  If one has question just simply tell shooter that you see lack of smoke compared to some other.  There are always those who are just going to make far above standards due to choice, availability of powder, etc.  Sharing observation is simple and if you are new to BP it does not hurt to just get an opinion from another BP shooter.   

Perhaps irreverent to OP , but I suggest there as many smokeless shooters who could be shooting under PF at times not even realizing it..  If running border-line speed with position sensitive powders as we often do one can certainly catch a load that might not make the minimum.. 

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Billy, 

I agree we police ourselves. The smoke standard doesn't need much outside enforcement as a result, and most BP shooters are proud of their smoke. We laugh when people cough and wheeze as we walk off the stage. I just thought Jailhouse Jim's comment was nonproductive.

 

As for power factor, I've had several shooters who told me their load, and I knew it was going to produce a PF from testing. I'll let the subject go at that. We BP shooters just get more attention  from smokeless shooters because they're jealous of our awesomeness. ;) 

IMG_5690.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L said:

Billy, 

I agree we police ourselves. The smoke standard doesn't need much outside enforcement as a result, and most BP shooters are proud of their smoke. We laugh when people cough and wheeze as we walk off the stage. I just thought Jailhouse Jim's comment was nonproductive.

 

As for power factor, I've had several shooters who told me their load, and I knew it was going to produce a PF from testing. I'll let the subject go at that. We BP shooters just get more attention  from smokeless shooters because they're jealous of our awesomeness. ;) 

IMG_5690.jpeg

I mentioned the PF as I was a bit shocked recently in testing a new powder (to me).  I have been at this a long time and I was very surprised in what a difference position could make in fps.  I do not advocate heavy loads because many of US can not be comfortable with them due to age, arthritis, category, etc,  but I now see more need in running over chronograph rather just being pleased with recoil and accuracy (if that be a criteria to the shooter).  Watching PF is much like making smoke in BP, one does not have to go "overboard" but need to be aware. 

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6 hours ago, Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L said:

Jailhouse Jim, if you don't think it's being enforced, then make an official protest of everyone who you think isn't meeting it.

I was a member of SASS for 25 years and have watched the rules and enforcement of the rules get diluted down to the point where it does no good to make a formal protest to anything thus may statement.    

 

The worst smoke violation I ever saw was at WR by our posse leader who was also a member of the Territorial Rough Riders.  When I brought the subject up, it was quickly dismissed and I was considered a whiner.  Right there told me the rules didn't apply to everyone.

 

I rarely shoot SASS matches anymore due to the inconsistent rules enforcement, lack of movement, and being blasted with shrapnel from in your face targets.  It's simply not worth my time so I shoot other disciplines where the written rules are regularly enforced and the courses actually offer something more challenging than the old 10-10-4.

 

So while my comments may seem unproductive to you, this whole thread is unproductive since there will likely be no realistic changes or meaningful enforcement after days of debate.  Agree or disagree, that's my opinion based on 25 years of shooting SASS.

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Absolutely amazing that folks think that not making protests against those not meeting the rules is a waste of time... for that only cheats the rest of us of a fair match.  I don't care who it is, a cheat is a cheat.   Hey!  I'm still going to finish last, but at least I can do it with my head held high.  For if there's one thing I can't do... it's practice.  Remember, it's a sin!  But not cheating!

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THREAD HIJACK ALERT!!

 

I will gladly stipulate to any and all smoke tests, blood, urine, DNA, STP, etc; if the TO or other posse leaders could have the spotters spread out for BP shooters. Would appreciate NOT hearing, "I didn't really see the target but I didn't "hear" it hit." 

 

Here endeth the hijack.

Return to thread.

 

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On 1/7/2023 at 9:09 AM, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

THREAD HIJACK ALERT!!

 

I will gladly stipulate to any and all smoke tests, blood, urine, DNA, STP, etc; if the TO or other posse leaders could have the spotters spread out for BP shooters. Would appreciate NOT hearing, "I didn't really see the target but I didn't "hear" it hit." 

 

Here endeth the hijack.

Return to thread.

 

Spotters must all sing the Mexican Hat dance before spotting.

I YOU KNOW IT'S A HIT IT'S A HIT

IF YOU THINK IT'S A HIT I'S A HIT

IF YOU THINK IT'S A MISS ITS A HIT

IF YOU KNOW IT;S A MISS IT'S A MISS.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L said:

Spotters must all sing the Mexican Hat dance before spotting.

I YOU KNOW IT'S A HIT IT'S A HIT

IF YOU THINK IT'S A HIT I'S A HIT

IF YOU THINK IT'S A MISS ITS A HIT

IF YOU KNOW IT;S A MISS IT'S A MISS.

 

 

to which we could dance this ditty:

 

IF YOU KNOW IT'S SMOKEY ENOUGH IT'S SMOKEY ENOUGH

IF YOU THINK IT'S SMOKEY ENOUGH IT'S SMOKEY ENOUGH

IF YOUR UNSURE IF IT'S SMOKEY ENOUGH IT'S SMOKEY ENOUGH

IF THERE'S NO SMOKE IT'S NOT SMOKEY ENOUGH...:P...:rolleyes:

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