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Smoke Factor Table?


Not Dead Ed

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6 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

... under the right conditions plenty of laughter is had.

 

I consider people laughing are having fun. Ain't that the whole point of playing this game?

 

 

 

My last match I shot FC with 1.9cc APP in 45 Colt with 200 gr bullets.  It was one of the most fun shoots I've done.  And almost all triple taps were "shooting where you think the target is."

 

Having said that, making the rule say "any common BP Substitute" is like saying "as big as a dog".  Not all dogs are the same size, and not all subs smoke the same, let alone variations in bullet lube, presence or type of filler, lead vs. coated bullets, etc.

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Wind, temperature and humidity play far more of a factor in perceived smokiness.  Again not saying there isn't a difference between various subs and even various brands of BP but requiring frontier cartridge shooters to be loading at least 1.0cc of their given choice of a wide range of approved powders doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

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Comparing smoke seems awful subjective to me. Just a slight breeze could change it quickly. Who provides all the rounds to compare yours to? I only shoot BP a couple times a year and run 30 gr. of real BP in my 45 colts and 25gr. In C&B, but would certainly go up if required. I don't go full loads yet as I'm still working on getting my Marlin to like them for 6 stages:lol: Got some annealed brass to try this spring. Right now, honestly, I'm just too damn lazy to have to clean 4 guns after every match.:D

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I would prefer that no standard even mention Pyrodex.  For those living in humid areas, it can be the kiss of death to guns unless you clean repeatedly for several days after a shoot.  It is severely hygroscopic even in minute amounts left in your barrel after cleaning.  Far worse than any brand of BP I've used or other subs.  I would suggest that asking a person to willingly subject their guns to it simply to adjudicate a smoke complaint is cruel and borders on complete disregard of even the cheapest of firearms.

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1 hour ago, July Smith said:

...requiring frontier cartridge shooters to be loading at least 1.0cc of their given choice of a wide range of approved powders doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

 I don't think you understand the testing procedure.  The rule doesn't say you have to load 1.0cc of any substitute.  It says you have to use loads that make the same amount of smoke as 1.0cc  in a 38 with "any BP Substitute".  If someone challenges you, then they shoot your load compared to a Standard Test Load.  If the Standard test load being used has 1.0cc of APP, and it makes more smoke than your load, you get disqualified.  Even if your load is 1.0cc of something like 777.  

 

 

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I understand the issue with the current standards is a lack of Goex powder being in production. If that is the case and the current rule is a good one, why not just drop the word Goex and replace it with 1cc of BP . Is the brand of Black Powder that big an issue. I’ve shot them all Elephant to Swiss and they all smoke about the same as I recall

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10 hours ago, Will Kane said:

As a practical matter, are black powder smoke tests conducted at matches?


 

Several times I made the suggestion that sample rounds that meet the minimum smoke requirement be fired at the shooter safety meeting in an effort to “calibrate” the spotters to the match conditions of the day.  To my knowledge it has never been done.

 

Perhaps instead of a “new” standard, awards in the blackpowder categories should be given on the basis of amount of smoke rather than just raw speed.  The shooter generating the most smoke in each category wins first place.  Use time with penalties as a tiebreaker.  At least competitors would be recognized for doing what you want them to do, shoot lots of black powder.

 

Since I no longer compete, I have no comment specifically on the new proposal.

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7 hours ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

How many cc are in a Grain of Black Powder?

It used to be that 15 grains on 2 f in a 38 case with a 158 Bullet.

As far as i know a CC is something a Doctor uses to give you a shot.

A CC cubic centimeter is a measure of volume. Grains are a measure of weight.  What varies among the different powders is their density (grains / cc ).   CC x Density (grns/cc) = Weight ( grains) 
So 1 cc of Goex will weigh (in grains) 15 grains,  1 CC of APP weighed 12.4 grns (when I measured it the other day). 1 CC of Pyrodex or 777 will weigh different from each other too.   Hope that helps.  

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2 hours ago, Not Dead Ed said:

A CC cubic centimeter is a measure of volume. Grains are a measure of weight.  What varies among the different powders is their density (grains / cc ).   CC x Density (grns/cc) = Weight ( grains) 
So 1 cc of Goex will weigh (in grains) 15 grains,  1 CC of APP weighed 12.4 grns (when I measured it the other day). 1 CC of Pyrodex or 777 will weigh different from each other too.   Hope that helps.  

Not Dead Ed, thanks for those, I did these as well: 1.0 cc of Olde Eynsford 2F =14.4 Gr,  1.0 cc of 777 2F = 12.3 Gr, and 1.0 cc of Pyrodex Select 2F = 11.2 Gr.

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13 hours ago, Diamond Jake said:

 I don't think you understand the testing procedure.  The rule doesn't say you have to load 1.0cc of any substitute.  It says you have to use loads that make the same amount of smoke as 1.0cc  in a 38 with "any BP Substitute".  If someone challenges you, then they shoot your load compared to a Standard Test Load.  If the Standard test load being used has 1.0cc of APP, and it makes more smoke than your load, you get disqualified.  Even if your load is 1.0cc of something like 777.  

 

 

I understand how the current testing is done though have never seen it done. The proposed change would seem to remove a lot of the subjectivity and make a more standard load.

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30 minutes ago, July Smith said:

I understand how the current testing is done though have never seen it done. The proposed change would seem to remove a lot of the subjectivity and make a more standard load.

Check Capt. Baylor’s table, if some chose 1cc of APP, even the holy black at 1cc would fail at testing.  
that’s why the proposed rule isn’t fully cooked yet….   
 

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A couple more questions, please.

The only stated rationale I've seen for the proposed rule change is "shortages of some of the current standard components in a lot of areas".

  1. Is this the only rationale or are there other stated rationales?
  2. Is there any quantifiable data regarding the number of requests made for the proposed rule change, regardless of rationale?
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Let me know if the video works or not.  Whoever can correctly guess the order of loads fired I owe a drink.  All loads used the same bullet, same filler, same primer, and were fired in the same gun.  Five rounds were loaded with 0.7cc of APP, five rounds with 1.0cc of APP, five with 1.0cc of Goex 2fg, and five rounds with 1.0cc of Goex 3fg.

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JS,

I would not call "failed" on any fired.  If I was to say one possibly less than others it would be the last.  The smoke test can be subjective in different folks eyes so I  suggest another's view might be different than mine.  Again, I would not DQ a shooter on what you presented.  On a still, humid morning you couple ten of those with some rifle and/or shotgun and I bet you are scrambling to see a target.

 

Guess I was in on "the ground floor" of this smoke factor thing.  I knew the maker of the original test ammo, Black Dawge.  In fact bought his equipment when he quit.  Then it was Cowboy Goex with filler.  I tested numerous loads with the then standard 145 gr SPG lubed .358 bullet.  I found 9 grains with filler to edge of case could make as much smoke as 15 and filler (less filler of course).  I still have lots of CG left but do not have availability of same bullet anymore.  Incidentally, never got same combo to work with another bullet, at least to my accuracy standards.  Granted my standards may be a little stiff for what we really need in CAS, but I came into this discipline from over twenty years of one requiring much more smaller groups than we really need in cowboy.

Thanks for report.

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I started with 45 Colt 250 grainers over 777. I then went to 200 and 250 grainers over APP. Now I use 200 and 250 grainers over FFg BP.

 

I never had a BP day when I didn't thoroughly have a great time, shot slower and more deliberate 'cause yeah, smoke, and got a huge grin on every stage. I've never had anyone ask me whether I use filler either. The smoke speaks for itself. :D

 

I've also found FFFg BP in 44 Special and 44-40 with 200 grainers is also quite obnoxiously wonderful.

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Howdy

 

This all started a whole bunch of years ago when a video went around showing a shooter grinning after firing Black Powder loads that hardly made any smoke at all. Clearly a gamer pushing the limits. So folks started talking about instituting a Black Powder Standard.

 

At that time I sent an note to my TG saying something like:

 

"It is to be expected that the Black Powder shooter will have to contend with smoke obscured targets."

 

I don't remember exactly what I wrote, but that was the gist of it.

 

My point was, to take a page from President Kennedy, 'we do these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard'.

 

My TG forwarded that statement to the powers that be back then, and it was included in the first iteration of the Black Powder Standard.

 

Here is the latest definition in the Shooter's Handbook:

 

Blackpowder category contestants are expected to understand they will contend with smoke
obscured targets. To ensure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must
produce smoke at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of
blackpowder (see Blackpowder Testing section for additional requirements)

 

 

Yes, shooting Black Powder is not easy and not for the faint of heart. Smoke obscured targets, cleaning messy guns, not to mention that I can only get about 200 45 Colt or 44-40 rounds out of a pound of powder, whereas if I was loading them with Unique I would get over 900 rounds from a pound of powder.

 

I can't tell you the number of times I have had to do the one legged 'basketball move' in order to see my targets when shooting into the sun with Black Powder loads.

 

I have no dog in this fight about how much powder, and what the testing conditions should be.

 

I may not know much about art, but I know what I like, or some such sentiment.

 

Regarding Cubic Centimeters (CC) the reason they are referenced is because that is how the old Lee powder dipper sets are labeled.

 

plLJabEnj

 

 

 

 

A CC is a measure of volume, and it is identical to the more modern term Milli Litre

 

 

Here is a table I made up quite a few years ago showing the actual grain weight of some of the standard Black Powder charges I use in the cartridges I load with Black Powder. Notice Lee Dippers are referenced. Notice different brands of powder actually weigh different amounts. Yeah Elephant is not made anymore, I made up this chart a long time ago. In case anyone is interested, 2.2CC us what I put in my 45 Colt and 44-40 rounds. It fills up the case, and gets compressed a little bit when I seat the bullet.

 

pml7GTgRj

 

 

 

 

This is what it is supposed to look like when you shoot Black Powder.

 

pmPwzFcrj

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On 12/15/2022 at 5:57 PM, July Smith said:

Wind, temperature and humidity play far more of a factor in perceived smokiness.  Again not saying there isn't a difference between various subs and even various brands of BP but requiring frontier cartridge shooters to be loading at least 1.0cc of their given choice of a wide range of approved powders doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

 

Measuring the powder by pulling the bullets is not accurate. 

 

Compressed loads will cause some powders to stick to the inside of the case.

Some shooters use filler. How do you separate the filler from the powder?

Some fillers are the same color as the powder. How would you tell them apart?

 

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Many people talk about how seldom BP shooters challenged.  Well here is my take. 

 

First 99% of the BP shooters easily exceed the smoke standard. It's that pesky 1% that is the problem.

 

Few smokeless shooters have any experience with BP and even fewer understand the smoke standard.

 

At the big matches there may only be 1 or 2 BP shooters on any given posse. Land run had 35 or 36 posses and 78 shooters in the BP categories.  So most posses had only 2 BP shooters. Odds of getting called on the smoke standard are pretty low.

 

I know of at least 1 former BP shooter that worked hard at riding the edge of making the smoke standard. I know because he shot 38 short colts in his pistols and used filler in his 38 specials. I never shot against this shooter at a state or above match so I could never bring forth a challenge. Challenging the shooter at a monthly was pointless as no one had any approved rounds to test against.

I know of at least one occurrence where one shooter wanted to challenge another shooter's rounds. However, he was informed that he couldn't bring forth a challenge as he was not on the same posse as the person he wanted to challenge.

 

 

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On 12/14/2022 at 10:36 PM, Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L said:

My request to the TGs is vote no on the revised  rule. Use the correct one for the time being. There is enough Goex 2f to last a while, and reconsider next year, basing the standard on one powder, something not 20-30% smokier than Goex 2F or Pyrodex P or 777 2f.

So where you findin' all this Goex?

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7 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Many people talk about how seldom BP shooters challenged.  Well here is my take. 

 

First 99% of the BP shooters easily exceed the smoke standard. It's that pesky 1% that is the problem.

 

Few smokeless shooters have any experience with BP and even fewer understand the smoke standard.

 

At the big matches there may only be 1 or 2 BP shooters on any given posse. Land run had 35 or 36 posses and 78 shooters in the BP categories.  So most posses had only 2 BP shooters. Odds of getting called on the smoke standard are pretty low.

 

I know of at least 1 former BP shooter that worked hard at riding the edge of making the smoke standard. I know because he shot 38 short colts in his pistols and used filler in his 38 specials. I never shot against this shooter at a state or above match so I could never bring forth a challenge. Challenging the shooter at a monthly was pointless as no one had any approved rounds to test against.

I know of at least one occurrence where one shooter wanted to challenge another shooter's rounds. However, he was informed that he couldn't bring forth a challenge as he was not on the same posse as the person he wanted to challenge.

 

 

That right there is why I no longer shoot FC, people shooting cartridges that you cannot get close to the minimum of BP in them.

kR

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9 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

This is what it is supposed to look like when you shoot Black Powder.

 

pmPwzFcrj

 

I’m going to have to check, I may not be making enough smoke :ph34r:

 

9A925BB9-2C09-4A84-A648-870B6C86292A.thumb.jpeg.8e2ba11245aede48392edf380f60f58a.jpeg

 

290AD275-CE34-4584-AB8C-6B11E81E433D.thumb.jpeg.5414e07256795b5b091ec3fd42b72916.jpeg

 

These photos have not been photo-shopped. 

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When the smoke from your pistols is still obscuring  your walk back up to the unloading table, you’ve got enough smoke.  
As the TO said, No misses, but you ain’t clean! 

14434F89-FF4F-4D23-8575-447FF2C33755.jpeg

045E303D-212F-4D95-9500-A42E4B367816.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

I’m going to have to check, I may not be making enough smoke :ph34r:

 

9A925BB9-2C09-4A84-A648-870B6C86292A.thumb.jpeg.8e2ba11245aede48392edf380f60f58a.jpeg

 

290AD275-CE34-4584-AB8C-6B11E81E433D.thumb.jpeg.5414e07256795b5b091ec3fd42b72916.jpeg

 

These photos have not been photo-shopped. 

 

Looks like you could do better. Need at least another 40 grains of powder in those shotgun shells. :P

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I am not a BP shooter, but I enjoy watching it.  I also sometimes like to experiment shooting that way, just for fun.  But I have never shot in a BP category.   For one thing, while the pistols and rifles are fun, I find shooting the shotgun with BP unpleasant somehow., so I usually shoot them smokeless.  Which means not shooting in a BP category.   I am told that while you can't shoot smokeless in a BP category, you can shoot BP in one of the other categories if you want too.   The first time I shot BP rounds was at a shoot where were 1 of my pistols was an antique, so no smokeless in that gun.  The first time I fired it, and it was not the first gun shot, there was a lot of unexpected laughter.

Strike that.   I just remembered that the very FIRST time I shot black was at a shoot where I was using my Sheriff's models.   On the last stage of the day, the last round out of my second pistol was loaded with black.   I got applause.  My point is, I have fun.   

And shooting black or a sub is fun.  Yes, the smoke can be confounding if there's no wind, but well, if you don't want to deal with smoke, shoot smokeless.  :)

On the other hand, if you are shooting something like .32 S&W and are worried about it generating enough smoke, well, just shoot Traditional or Duelist that day, use your .32's and have fun.

And if you wanna shoot a BP category, generate lotsa smoke and have fun that way.

 

For what it's worth, here's me shooting.   The pistols are a converted Walker, and a 7.5" SAA clone.   The rifle in obviously a 92. and all are .45's.    The shotgun had reduced loads that didn't generate all that much smoke, and a couple of rounds were smokeless as I ran out of the other stuff.   I shot 49er that day. and had a lot of fun.  (Last stage of the day, IIRC)
 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I am not a BP shooter, but I enjoy watching it.  I also sometimes like to experiment shooting that way, just for fun.  But I have never shot in a BP category.   For one thing, while the pistols and rifles are fun, I find shooting the shotgun with BP unpleasant somehow., so I usually shoot them smokeless.  Which means not shooting in a BP category.   I am told that while you can't shoot smokeless in a BP category, you can shoot BP in one of the other categories if you want too.   The first time I shot BP rounds was at a shoot where were 1 of my pistols was an antique, so no smokeless in that gun.  The first time I fired it, and it was not the first gun shot, there was a lot of unexpected laughter.

Strike that.   I just remembered that the very FIRST time I shot black was at a shoot where I was using my Sheriff's models.   On the last stage of the day, the last round out of my second pistol was loaded with black.   I got applause.  My point is, I have fun.   

And shooting black or a sub is fun.  Yes, the smoke can be confounding if there's no wind, but well, if you don't want to deal with smoke, shoot smokeless.  :)

On the other hand, if you are shooting something like .32 S&W and are worried about it generating enough smoke, well, just shoot Traditional or Duelist that day, use your .32's and have fun.

And if you wanna shoot a BP category, generate lotsa smoke and have fun that way.

 

For what it's worth, here's me shooting.   The pistols are a converted Walker, and a 7.5" SAA clone.   The rifle in obviously a 92. and all are .45's.    The shotgun had reduced loads that didn't generate all that much smoke, and a couple of rounds were smokeless as I ran out of the other stuff.   I shot 49er that day. and had a lot of fun.  (Last stage of the day, IIRC)
 

 

 

 

Well there’s your problem, you’re using a ‘97 instead of an ‘87 :D

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11 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

Well there’s your problem, you’re using a ‘97 instead of an ‘87 :D

Interesting thing the 87...

My original 87 runs Magtech all brass or AA's cut back to 2-1/2" just fine.

My Chiappa reproduction runs 2-3/4" AA's just fine, but if I try running the shorter shells in it, they tend to stovepipe on the way out.  Weird.

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I test loaded a 38 short colt case and you can get 1cc of black powder in it but you have to compress it twice and there is not enough room to seat a bullet in it even slightly. Less than 1/32 of an inch. If you compress the subs that much you will not get a favorable result. I have loaded and tested subs in 45 acp with different compression amounts and you WILL end up with flattened primers and overpressure loads. The point is you cannot compress either BP or a sub enough to even approach a 1cc load in that cartridge. The thing to remember is subs ARE smokiless powders.

kR

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2 hours ago, Lassy LaRock said:

And if you just say the minimum factor revolver is 70 and rifle 120?

On the "larger" calibers, say, .32-20 plus, just load 'em up with a full case of the stuff, and you're gonna be fine.

On the "smaller" calibers, say, .38 Short Colt, .38 S&W, .32 S&W Long and .32 S&W, and maybe some others, well, they won't meet the standard even with a full case of powder.  Perhaps a minor exemption is needed for these little guys?  I have no idea what it should be, or even if it SHOULD be.  In all fairness, when I do shoot a gun in these little calibers, I'm just shooting my regular 49er category anyway.  The .38 S&W seems to make a decent amount of smoke to me, but, yeah, no where near as much as the bigger ones do.

Don't know what the answer is.

 

I will say the first time I shot my New Model 3 in .38 S&W, I had recently acquired a vintage partial box of factory black powder ammo.  Since the box was labeled non corrosive primers, I decided to shoot the ammo.  Only two went boom, the other three did nothing.  Did a "reload" to get the other three shots, two went off, one didn't.  Reloaded again and the last one did go off.  Did not use the gun for the rest of the shoot and broke down the ammo and reloaded it it fresh powder and primers.  :)  That was an oddly fun experience.

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As a "smokiless" shooter being asked by our TG our opinion on how to vote on this I have some questions.   If someone is challenged on their load's smokiness how is this "tested" at a major match (ie, state match)?  In other words where do you get the ammo that supposedly meets the standards?  From another competitor?  But how do you verify their ammo isn't loaded above the requirement and thus makes more smoke than needed to meet the minimum requirement?  I have quite a bit to do with our state match and to my knowledge we don't have BP rounds laying around that would be used as a test.  I don't think I would want to disqualify a shooter from a state match based on their competitor's rounds if I couldn't definitively prove their competitors loads were actually at the minimum and thus they definitely weren't meeting the minimum standard.  As the shooter being challenged I would also definitely want to know what the load was that I am being judged on.  It seems from the comments above that some loads have fillers that look like powder so just pulling the load apart and measuring it isn't a reliable option.  So how do you reliably test this to disqualify someone?  Thanks for the info.

Roper

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