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Smoke Factor Table?


Not Dead Ed

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Our TG recently got an email with proposed handbook changes. 
One of the changes was to the Smoke Factor standard and the use of BP subs “according to the following table”.

However,  the table was not attached to the email he received. 
Does anyone have a copy of the table being proposed for BP subs and equivalent smoke factors to the current GOEX standard?  
It’d be nice to know what the proposed subs smoke factor loads are before voting yea or nay.  
 

thank you, 

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50 minutes ago, Not Dead Ed said:

Our TG recently got an email with proposed handbook changes. 
One of the changes was to the Smoke Factor standard and the use of BP subs “according to the following table”.

However,  the table was not attached to the email he received. 
Does anyone have a copy of the table being proposed for BP subs and equivalent smoke factors to the current GOEX standard?  
It’d be nice to know what the proposed subs smoke factor loads are before voting yea or nay.  
 

thank you, 

The change was due to shortages of some of the current standard components in a lot of areas, (high lighted in red).

 

The current standard BP test load is:

- Standard .38 Special case.

- 1 cc GOEX 2F powder.

- Federal Standard primer.

- 145 grain bullet lubed with SPG.

- Powder lightly compressed with a medium roll crimp.

 

The proposed standard BP test load is:

 - Standard .38 Special case

 - 125 to 158 grain bullet

 - 1.0cc by volume of any common blackpowder substitute

 

FWIT this has been brought up and discussed for a long time by BP shooters even though some are saying it has just came up.  Frontier Cartridge Smoke Factor Cross Reference (From Feb 2022), also on You Tube you can see a comparison using both BP & Substitute (from July 13, 2017)

 

Charlie

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2 hours ago, Charlie T Waite said:

The change was due to shortages of some of the current standard components in a lot of areas, (high lighted in red).

 

The current standard BP test load is:

- Standard .38 Special case.

- 1 cc GOEX 2F powder.

- Federal Standard primer.

- 145 grain bullet lubed with SPG.

- Powder lightly compressed with a medium roll crimp.

 

The proposed standard BP test load is:

 - Standard .38 Special case

 - 125 to 158 grain bullet

 - 1.0cc by volume of any common blackpowder substitute

 

FWIT this has been brought up and discussed for a long time by BP shooters even though some are saying it has just came up.  Frontier Cartridge Smoke Factor Cross Reference (From Feb 2022), also on You Tube you can see a comparison using both BP & Substitute (from July 13, 2017)

 

Charlie

 

I found the cross reference info a while ago, and the YouTube video when I was switching up BP subs and wanted to make sure I didn’t smoke too little (although my pards complain about me being Mr. smoke too much). 

Awesome, thanks….  
 

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I use app in my 38 cases with a 130 gr bullet about 1.3cc of powder. Saturday we had a 3 target stage where you triple tap the outside targets and then 4 on the middle. By the time I got to the middle target it had disappeared. Plenty of smoke. ;)

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BP subs like APP make more smoke than Holy black so that is not a good choice for the test load.   What about the shooters using real black powder?:wacko:

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52 minutes ago, Cholla Bob said:

BP subs like APP make more smoke than Holy black so that is not a good choice for the test load.   What about the shooters using real black powder?:wacko:

Be ready to break down a load and show that you're using sufficient BP.  And if you have a guilty conscience, you're not!;)

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1 hour ago, Not Dead Ed said:

 

I found the cross reference info a while ago, and the YouTube video when I was switching up BP subs and wanted to make sure I didn’t smoke too little (although my pards complain about me being Mr. smoke too much). 

Awesome, thanks….  
 

Ditto on the smoke to much, I just say I'm getting rid of the skitters...:rolleyes:   it does show that you can't really tell the difference in smoke regardless of propellant using 1.0 cc.  To test it make one of each, put them in a bag & shake it up a bit then just start puling them out, load them up & shoot them  since you don't know which is which you won't know the BP from the Sub unless you cheat no matter what some people say or how much they say I am wrong.  I marked mine & had several people standing behind me just to see the smoke clouds from BP & after I was finished I ask them which was BP & which was not.  They as I could not tell the difference & only knew when I unloaded & looked at the cases..

 

Charlie

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The three leading substitutes are not interchangeable. Triple Seven and Pyrodex make less smoke than APP. I've done extensive testing,  published in the Cowboy Chronicle. If you use APP in your smoke standard round, 1cc Triple Seven and Pyrodex would fail.

The chart below was published after the smoke standard was revised using Coex 2F.

Since Hodgdon is unlikely to stop selling Triple Seven or Pyrodex, I would choose one so that there is one smoke standard, not two or three.

 

SmokeStd.jpg

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CGB

 

For FC I usually use the 777 2F as it is most readily available where I have been from ND / MT going south to TX & OK and all in between.  The only reason I have the Pyrodex Select is I got 7-8 lbs from an estate auction.  APP has been hard to find but I have an ample supply of Olde Eynsford for my B&C revolvers & rifles that I can use if need be.  I was just noting what I had tried and what I and others noted.

 

CTW

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I'm not understanding the issue of simply switching to a standard 1.0cc volume?  Seems way easier to verify if you need to pull a load apart rather than a subjective and visual comparison of fired rounds.  Don't get me wrong I do understand that certain subs produce more smoke than others.  For the shooters that are really splitting hairs they might see an advantage to shooting pyrodex.  

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49 minutes ago, July Smith said:

I'm not understanding the issue of simply switching to a standard 1.0cc volume?  Seems way easier to verify if you need to pull a load apart rather than a subjective and visual comparison of fired rounds.  Don't get me wrong I do understand that certain subs produce more smoke than others.  For the shooters that are really splitting hairs they might see an advantage to shooting pyrodex.  

You aren’t pulling a round apart to measure,   You are shooting it and comparing clouds… 

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I've been pulling bullets recently, and the amount of powder that sticks in the case is significant. Now instead of smoke are we going to be measuring small differences in a small volume? Additionally fillers are legal even ones that look like the powder. And, to me, there's something that says if you're judging a smoke standard, you have to judge the smoke. Yes, it's difficult and a kettle of worms.  It was in 2008 or so when we did it the first time. But it worked until powders were discontinued {TWICE). Pyrodex has been here the longest, so it's a logical choice in checking that column. and, volume. for volume it makes the lowest visible smoke {or close enough). But if we need a standard and picked 777 (2F-3F is not approved for cartridges) I don't care which one is chosen, as long as it's not APP. That would be RAISING the smoke standard.

 

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1 hour ago, Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L said:

The three leading substitutes are not interchangeable. Triple Seven and Pyrodex make less smoke than APP. I've done extensive testing,  published in the Cowboy Chronicle. If you use APP in your smoke standard round, 1cc Triple Seven and Pyrodex would fail.

The chart below was published after the smoke standard was revised using Coex 2F.

Since Hodgdon is unlikely to stop selling Triple Seven or Pyrodex, I would choose one so that there is one smoke standard, not two or three.

 

SmokeStd.jpg

Thank you.   So why are the TG’s voting on a 1 CC smoke standard of any BP sub when they vary so much as a SHB change?   
it is still a shoot ‘em off and compare the clouds.   So if for example someone has 1cc of APP and they compare a “more smoke” versus a 1 CC 777 or Pyrodex,  someone’s perfectly acceptable loads could be rejected.   

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2 minutes ago, Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L said:

I've been pulling bullets recently, and the amount of powder that sticks in the case is significant. Now instead of smoke are we going to be measuring small differences in a small volume? Additionally fillers are legal even ones that look like the powder. And, to me, there's something that says if you're judging a smoke standard, you have to judge the smoke. Yes, it's difficult and a kettle of worms.  It was in 2008 or so when we did it the first time. But it worked until powders were discontinued {TWICE). Pyrodex has been here the longest, so it's a logical choice in checking that column. and, volume. for volume it makes the lowest visible smoke {or close enough). But if we need a standard and picked 777 (2F-3F is not approved for cartridges) I don't care which one is chosen, as long as it's not APP. That would be RAISING the smoke standard.

 

The proposed SHB change does not include pulling apart rounds.   It is a 1cc of any sub for comparisons.   1 cc of APP would make all the others rejects if someone has 777 or Pyrodex, as you say.  
It seems the proposed rule change did not look at your correlation data since it was a flat 1 cc for everything.   

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Again I'm not disagreeing that some powders produce more smoke.  I am also not disagreeing that because it's a smoke category we should be comparing smoke. I am just saying a 1.0cc volume standard is a good move because one never knows what powder will be available.  Powders come and go, shortages are still present, what might be common in one area might be impossible to source in another.  1.0cc is not perfect but I don't see how its a big deal either unless you are a shooter barely making minimum smoke powder factor as is with a charge of APP that is less than 1.0cc.  

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40 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Again I'm not disagreeing that some powders produce more smoke.  I am also not disagreeing that because it's a smoke category we should be comparing smoke. I am just saying a 1.0cc volume standard is a good move because one never knows what powder will be available.  Powders come and go, shortages are still present, what might be common in one area might be impossible to source in another.  1.0cc is not perfect but I don't see how its a big deal either unless you are a shooter barely making minimum smoke powder factor as is with a charge of APP that is less than 1.0cc.  

However, should someone use a 1cc APP as the “reference”, all others could fail for not producing enough smoke….  
again it’s a shoot and compare.   Therefore a blanket 1cc doesn’t work for all subs.   
 

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1 minute ago, Not Dead Ed said:

However, should someone use a 1cc APP as the “reference”, all others could fail for not producing enough smoke….  
again it’s a shoot and compare.   Therefore a blanket 1cc doesn’t work for all subs.   
 

Why not?  As long as there is 1.0cc of an approved BP/sub powder in there the shooter is go to go.

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I contacted my TG and requested a NO vote on the proposed smoke standard.  The inclusion of APP as one of the approved subs is the reason.  It IS more smokey  than other SASS-legal BP-category propellants.

1 minute ago, Null N. Void said:

I haven’t tried, but can one meet the smoke factor using .32 H&R Magnum with a 78 grain bullet.  If yes, I may try some of the black powder shoots.

My wife shoots 32 H&R mags loaded with APP and 100 grain bullets and has never had her ammo challenged as lacking smoke.  She did well at EOT (third in her category) and wears a Regional category champion buckle won shooting her .32 H&R mags.  Your 78 grain bullets will make room for even more APP.

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This discussion comes up periodically and is discussed ad nauseum like rank points, boots and Wrangler jeans. 
 

The spirit of the rule was to establish a quantifiable distinction between BP and smokeless loads, or BP loads so light as to negate the spirit of BP shooting. I’ve been shooting for 14 years and have never seen a BP shooter where I’d question the load. Perhaps it happened once upon a time, but I’m unaware of it. 
 

As Capt. Baylor said, Goex smokes less than the subs, so I don’t understand the need for the rule change. Perhaps they could have said, “1 cc of Goex BP or BP substitute.”

 

 

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Assumption:

 

1 CC of any of the subs will safely expel any round from a barrel.

 

Question:

 

Does 1 CC of any of the subs meet the minimum power factor and velocity requirements for this sport?

 

Power factor minimum of 60 will depend on bullet weight, and must also have a minimum velocity of 400 fps.

 

Just wondering if the smoke standard is met before the other physical performance requirements. If so, I have little problem with the standard.

 

If 1 CC of any BP sub does also meet the physical requirements, then I would be against APP being a standard; this could hurt competitors running the other subs. I intend to run APP when I start reloading and would not want to be out of compliance if I later change to running 1 CC of the other choices.

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5 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Why not?  As long as there is 1.0cc of an approved BP/sub powder in there the shooter is go to go.

It isn’t a loading rule.   You shoot the rounds and compare smoke.  It’s a smoke rule. For example .7cc of APP = 1cc of 777 or Goex, or Pyrodex.   
if some uses a 1cc of APP as the standard as the rule says, it will produce more smoke that a 1cc load of all the others.  Therefore a 1 cc APP load would make other legit 777, Pyrodex, or even Goex load fail in a smoke check. 

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25 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

This discussion comes up periodically and is discussed ad nauseum like rank points, boots and Wrangler jeans. 
 

The spirit of the rule was to establish a quantifiable distinction between BP and smokeless loads, or BP loads so light as to negate the spirit of BP shooting. I’ve been shooting for 14 years and have never seen a BP shooter where I’d question the load. Perhaps it happened once upon a time, but I’m unaware of it. 
 

As Capt. Baylor said, Goex smokes less than the subs, so I don’t understand the need for the rule change. Perhaps they could have said, “1 cc of Goex BP or BP substitute.”

 

 

Agreed, but 1cc APP as a standard will fail a correct load of even Goex….    In a smoke check.  That’s why Capt. Baylor said you can’t use 1cc of APP.   However the rule as being proposed says 1cc of BP sub with any qualifications.   That’s the rub, they aren’t all equal, and the proposed rule misses this.   
 

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Are most Frontier Cartridge shooters shooting loads so light that a test load of 1.cc of APP could really disqualify them?  I’ve never seen smoke factor tested.  I figured it was sort of like the belly button rule.

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2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Assumption:

 

1 CC of any of the subs will safely expel any round from a barrel.

 

Question:

 

Does 1 CC of any of the subs meet the minimum power factor and velocity requirements for this sport?

 

Power factor minimum of 60 will depend on bullet weight, and must also have a minimum velocity of 400 fps.

 

Just wondering if the smoke standard is met before the other physical performance requirements. If so, I have little problem with the standard.

 

If 1 CC of any BP sub does also meet the physical requirements, then I would be against APP being a standard; this could hurt competitors running the other subs. I intend to run APP when I start reloading and would not want to be out of compliance if I later change to running 1 CC of the other choices.

 

There is no power factor requirement for the BP categories.
 

Quote

 

AMMUNITION COVENANTS

Power Factors

The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories in all SASS matches, including State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps.

The maximum velocities are 1000 fps for revolvers and 1400 fps for rifles.

SHB p.25

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My request to the TGs is vote no on the revised  rule. Use the current one for the time being. There is enough Goex 2f to last a while, and reconsider next year, basing the standard on one powder, something not 20-30% smokier than Goex 2F or Pyrodex P or 777 2f.

 

Edited. Damn autocorrect is your worst enema.

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2 hours ago, Not Dead Ed said:

Agreed, but 1cc APP as a standard will fail a correct load of even Goex….    In a smoke check.  That’s why Capt. Baylor said you can’t use 1cc of APP.   However the rule as being proposed says 1cc of BP sub with any qualifications.   That’s the rub, they aren’t all equal, and the proposed rule misses this.   
 

And, while many may really like APP, not all BP shooters prefer it.  Those who use 777 may not all like  3f over 2f  or 2f over 3f.  We have our preferences whether it be in availability, loading qualities, or whatever.  Some shooters certainly make more smoke than others but those with lesser smoke are not necessarily below standard assuming standard is equal.  Reading this thread, seems APP is not equal.  Testing smoke can be very controversial with many deviations.  The nice thing for years now has been, we as BP competitors,  all seem to check ourselves amongst fellow competitors.   I can recall of one protest on a competitor and protester lost.  ERSC, you might remember, that the competitor was shooting 32s.

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Does this really get questioned so often we need to vote on a rule/standard change? 
 

Also, Where is the line on how things get changed  in the rule book?  Seems we get to vote on some and some are just posted as approved (stickers on your guns and using more reliable shotgun primers in your ROA’s). 

 

Totes

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15 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

Does this really get questioned so often we need to vote on a rule/standard change? 
 

Also, Where is the line on how things get changed  in the rule book?  Seems we get to vote on some and some are just posted as approved (stickers on your guns and using more reliable shotgun primers in your ROA’s). 

 

Totes

 

The role of the Range Operations Committee regarding review and approval of firearm & equipment modifications can be found HERE.

The role of the Territorial Governors regarding actual rule changes can be found HERE.

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2 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

If you are shooting frontier cartridge and you have to worry about smoke factor you are missing the point of shooting frontier cartridge.

kR

Exactly.

 

When some pards around these parts shoot BP/subs, under the right conditions plenty of laughter is had.

 

I consider people laughing are having fun. Ain't that the whole point of playing this game?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

Exactly.

 

When some pards around these parts shoot BP/subs, under the right conditions plenty of laughter is had.

 

I consider people laughing are having fun. Ain't that the whole point of playing this game?

 

 

Yeah, as long as they are laughing with you and not at you. :)

It's a shame there even has to be a standard.

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One issue with the 15 gr minimum requirement is that it just requires you to produce smoke equivalent to 15 gr of whatever powder they settle on. Then a lot of shooters regardless of what caliber they're shooting just load 15 grs of bp or sub and the rest with filler. Does anyone know if a 38 special with that load produces more smoke then a 44-40 with 15grns of the same powder plus a lot of filler? Does 15grns in a large case produce the same level of smoke as a small case. Of course this is all subjectively judged.

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