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which is a safer motorcycle - big one or little one?


Alpo

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4 hours ago, El Chapo said:

wouldn't pick any of those.  The data are overwhelming that the safest motorcycles are those with fairings--touring motorcycles like Electra Glides, Street Glides, Road Glides, Gold Wings, etc.

Where do you find this data? I can’t find it. 
 

4 hours ago, El Chapo said:

The only Harley-Davidson that comes in ccs and not inches is a Sportster which is basically their smallest air cooled motorcycle.  I don't know that much about Japanese motorcycles but if it is only 350 or 650ccs, those are small motorcycles.   The safest motorcycles as far as being seen by idiot drivers are the largest, heaviest touring motorcycles.

 

In 22 minutes I'm going to get out of work and walk to my 103 cubic inch (that's 1790 ccs for those of you who don't speak American) Harley Davidson and ride home.  It was 26 degrees on my commute this morning; fortunately it's 50 or so degrees for my ride home.  It isn't a touring bike but it is much bigger/safer than a tiny motorcycle like you asked about.

Sounds like you’re itching to start an argument with your snippy little insults. 

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i dont think there is any such thing as a safe motorcycle , i think there might be some safe riders but even the safest is at the mercy of the driving public that just dont see or understand , perhaps just dont care 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Where do you find this data? I can’t find it. 
 

Sounds like you’re itching to start an argument with your snippy little insults. 

 

Insurance companies have been studying this for a long time.  I wouldn't have thought it made much difference until I saw the studies, but it makes a lot of sense.   Pretty much only the biggest motorcycles have a fairing to begin with, and it does make the motorcycle more visable, so this is a major factor in intersection related motorcycle crashes, which I thought were the #2 most common crashes, but after googling around, they may even be more common than single-vehicle motorcycle crashes where the motorcyclist errs, whether by overshooting a turn, misuing the brakes, or a combination of those sorts of factors.

 

For motorcyclist error type crashes, mot much "equipment" can make a difference in that, but if I were to guess at the one feature that can make a difference in that, it's antilock brakes.  There are places in the world where new motorcycles must have them, but the U.S. doesn't require them and it's kinda surprising that they haven't been available on motorcycles for as long as they have been on cars, at least not the ones I pay attention to.  The brakes on a motorcycle are probably the most dangerous control.  They can be your best friend or they can put you on the ground if you panic or use them incorrectly.  ABS is the one feature that removes some of that human error element, more than anything else.  Other than that, proper rider training and technique is important.  If you stab the front when going 10 mph with the handlebar turned, you're going to the ground, absent a miracle, so avoiding those kinds of errors is big.  But avoiding those kinds of errors in a panic situation, even with proper training, is asking a lot.

 

Intersection related crashes often occur with a car turning left in front of a motorcycle in an intersection.  Those are the crashes where the big, bold, heavy, fairing-equipped motorcycle is at an advantage.  If the guy who was going to turn left in front of you sees something and hesitates, it can be the difference between life and death.  That is why I think--and studies I've read have shown--that big motorcycles are "safer" in that sense.  The weakness of a study like that is that teenagers don't get all excited and go down to the dealership and buy a Goldwing.  They aren't called "Geezer-Glides" for nothing.  There may be correlation between who the operators are and the crashes.  But unless the facts have changed since I've read those studies, fairing-equipped motorcycles are associated with fewer intersection related crashes, which is a supposed fact that might not be obvious, but makes more sense the more you think about it.  Those bikes have more lights, they're bigger, taller, and have all that painted plastic on them, and maybe that makes them more likely to be seen.  Or maybe geezers are just more defensive drivers.  You be the judge.

 

As to measuring in inches, shooting guns, and not riding Japanese motorcycles, well, this is America after all.  You might be surprised to hear that I shoot guns, too.  I won't hate on you for riding a Kawasaki, but you won't find one of those in my garage.  Not my thing.  If I did ride a Kawasaki, my dad would have told me to park it in the street and not the driveway.  You might have been brought up differently, and that's fine, I wave to all motorcycle riders.  But I won't be buying one or using the metric system anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

Well, at least I've done a few dozens of those.

 

I've done more than a few dozens, which is why I used it as an example.  And yes, of course our own experiences color our perception; it's only human.  Hopefully you get yourself a motorcycle in your (sounds like deserving!) retirement.

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7 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

I'll stick with the backcountry skis; at least the falls are in snow!;)

Oh man, maybe it belongs in another thread, but the deepest bruises I've ever had involved a chubby girlfriend and a snowboard.  I will stick to my motorcycle after that!

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Yes, cagers are always a threat.  A buddy run over a motorcycle when he didn’t see it in the glare of the setting sun.  Here is a half ton that lost a scooter in the glare.  Full fairing bikes are more visible and travel slower when turning.  They have a longer wheelbase and lower parts.  A small bike or scooter can turn left without slowing down where a bike with footplates, bags has to slow down, giving the opposing driver notice.

 

Here is an example of a safe bike, snow too deep for someone to steal parts or ride off.

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6 hours ago, El Chapo said:

As to measuring in inches, shooting guns, and not riding Japanese motorcycles, well, this is America after all.  You might be surprised to hear that I shoot guns, too.  I won't hate on you for riding a Kawasaki, but you won't find one of those in my garage.  Not my thing.  If I did ride a Kawasaki, my dad would have told me to park it in the street and not the driveway.  You might have been brought up differently, and that's fine, I wave to all motorcycle riders.  But I won't be buying one or using the metric system anytime soon.

:lol: Fair enough. 
I go out out of my way to buy American except for motorcycles and sports cars. Though I do really like the new HD Pan America and the new HD Sportster 1250 S. The Indian FTR Scrambler looks interesting to me as well. I just have no desire to ride a couch when I ride a bike. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

I'll stick with the backcountry skis; at least the falls are in snow!;)

How did that work out for Sonny Bono and Michael Schumacher?

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I remembered this morning a situation at a Yamaha dealer I was at while waiting to pick up my bike from service. 
A woman walked in with a young guy, probably 17 or 18. The sales manager asked her if she needed any help and she said “My son wants a motorcycle. What is the safest motorcycle you have here?”

The salesman, without hesitation said “The safest motorcycle is the one you never get on.”

I don’t recall what else was said, but I did ask him later why he said that. He told me that he will not lie to a mother about motorcycle safety and her son’s desire to have one. I asked if she was going to buy the kid a bike and he said “Probably not.”

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I was age 13 with a nifty thrifty Honda 50, then the Yamaha YZ80, then the Yamaha 100 twin (nice!), then 305 Super Hawk, then a slew of 1957 to 1990s Sportsters, then a Yamaha RD400 (!!), then a 1200 Shovel head, then a Suzuki GS1000, and last a 2008 Sportster 1200.

At age 71, I sold the last bike and walked away without needing a cane or walker.
In my area, it is just flat too dangerous to street ride anymore.

The Harley shovelhead was an easy start... AFTER I replaced the factory carb with an S&S modified SU.
The chopped shovehead was very comfortable, and a better fit to my body than the sportsters.

The last 2008 Sportster was a wonderful bike and entirely reliable in every aspect.
I put a computer kit into it, and a set of SmartPartz baffles in the (illegal) Stage 1 off-road exhaust.
Lots of moxie and very smooth running.
It came with forward controls which I loathe, so I swapped with a guy in Illinois who traded his mids for my forwards.

I really like that one, but it just never quite sat comfortable for my hips.  Academic now.

In retrospect, the RD400 was the most "fun" bike, but anemic when packing my big-butt girlfriend at the time.
My GS1000 by far was the fastest of them all.
The 1957XL was a barn find, and my first Harley at age 18.
I had no idea how rare they are...

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14 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

:lol: Fair enough. 
I go out out of my way to buy American except for motorcycles and sports cars. Though I do really like the new HD Pan America and the new HD Sportster 1250 S. The Indian FTR Scrambler looks interesting to me as well. I just have no desire to ride a couch when I ride a bike. \

 

I should have pointed out that one of the biggest reasons I would never own a Japanese motorcycle is that to me, a radiator on a motorcycle is a dirty word.  I think the two models you listed here will be the death of Harley-Davidson if that sort of stuff continues.   There are certainly other reasons why the metric stuff isn't for me, but radiators are high on the list.

 

I don't have a rolling couch yet, but I'm looking forward to one when I find the right deal.  I'm definitely not old enough for it, but I want one anyway. 

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13 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I remembered this morning a situation at a Yamaha dealer I was at while waiting to pick up my bike from service. 
A woman walked in with a young guy, probably 17 or 18. The sales manager asked her if she needed any help and she said “My son wants a motorcycle. What is the safest motorcycle you have here?”

The salesman, without hesitation said “The safest motorcycle is the one you never get on.”

I don’t recall what else was said, but I did ask him later why he said that. He told me that he will not lie to a mother about motorcycle safety and her son’s desire to have one. I asked if she was going to buy the kid a bike and he said “Probably not.”

amen to that and good on him for being an honest salesman , something tells me he never lied to his mother either 

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2 hours ago, El Chapo said:

 

I should have pointed out that one of the biggest reasons I would never own a Japanese motorcycle is that to me, a radiator on a motorcycle is a dirty word.  I think the two models you listed here will be the death of Harley-Davidson if that sort of stuff continues.   There are certainly other reasons why the metric stuff isn't for me, but radiators are high on the list.

 

I don't have a rolling couch yet, but I'm looking forward to one when I find the right deal.  I'm definitely not old enough for it, but I want one anyway. 

I used to think the same thing about radiators on bikes. Sure, they add some maintenance, but they will save your engine, especially if your stuck in traffic for an extended period and you have no way of getting up to speed to cool your engine. 
I saw a guy in Oregon cook the engine on his brand new 1200 Sportster sitting in traffic on the interstate due to a really bad accident. Twice I yelled to him to split lanes or take the berm to cool his engine. He was afraid he’d get a ticket. He finally took my advice. Unfortunately idling and going 2 mph for over an hour took its toll. His engine seized. I offered he and his girlfriend a ride in our Suburban but he wanted to wait for the tow truck. 
One of the reasons California allowed lane splitting was because of motor Patrol CHP officers seizing up their engines back in the 60’s and 70’s. 
Radiators do look silly but they can be a good thing. 

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I feel it is very dependent on the type of riding you do and where you do it. Here in Wyoming where speed limits are high, distances are long, winds are high, and there are some steep grades + high altitudes, a bigger and more powerful bike is safer since it can keep up with traffic, riding isn't as fatiguing, and the bike doesn't get blown around as much. In a more urban environment with lower posted speed limits and more congestion, a smaller bike may have advantages since they tend to be nimble and can dodge into small gaps if trouble arises.  

 

A "do most things well" bike on the market that I consider a fantastic value is the Kawasaki Vulcan S. Small displacement (650 cc) quasi cruiser with a retuned Ninja engine. Rides nice for long trips, accelerates all out of proportion for the powerplant, and handles closer to a sport bike than most big V-twin machines. It can also be configured from the factory with different seats, bars, and foot controls to fit your body.

 

Ultimately- just as with firearms- the safety is in between the ears of the operator. 

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On 12/16/2022 at 9:58 PM, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I used to think the same thing about radiators on bikes. Sure, they add some maintenance, but they will save your engine, especially if your stuck in traffic for an extended period and you have no way of getting up to speed to cool your engine. 
I saw a guy in Oregon cook the engine on his brand new 1200 Sportster sitting in traffic on the interstate due to a really bad accident. Twice I yelled to him to split lanes or take the berm to cool his engine. He was afraid he’d get a ticket. He finally took my advice. Unfortunately idling and going 2 mph for over an hour took its toll. His engine seized. I offered he and his girlfriend a ride in our Suburban but he wanted to wait for the tow truck. 
One of the reasons California allowed lane splitting was because of motor Patrol CHP officers seizing up their engines back in the 60’s and 70’s. 
Radiators do look silly but they can be a good thing. 

 

All of that is true, but radiators are an innovation that does not go along with American motorcycles.  For me it's kinda like the metric system.  There are legitimate arguments that the metric system is better for a lot of things, but it's not the American way.

 

Maybe the better way to think about it is if you tried to explain the strategy of soccer to Americans or you tried to explain American football or baseball to Europeans.  Soccer might be fine contest enjoyed by people throughout the world but it's about as American as the metric system, that is, not at all. 

 

So if the choices are (potentially) cooking my engine in traffic or having a radiator, count me in the former category.  I'd rather have the simplicity of an air cooled engine for all the other times and take the risk. 

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On 12/17/2022 at 2:42 AM, Noah Mercy, SASS #29066 said:

A "do most things well" bike on the market that I consider a fantastic value is the Kawasaki Vulcan S. Small displacement (650 cc) quasi cruiser with a retuned Ninja engine. Rides nice for long trips, accelerates all out of proportion for the powerplant, and handles closer to a sport bike than most big V-twin machines. It can also be configured from the factory with different seats, bars, and foot controls to fit your body.

 

Ultimately- just as with firearms- the safety is in between the ears of the operator. 

I considered the Vulcan S when I bought my Versys 650. Same engine as the Ninja also, detuned, of course. 

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They put kickstands and on/off switches on bikes just for those “stuck in traffic” and standing traffic situations.  You more than likely won’t get where you’re going more than a minute or two quicker inching forward and stopping every ten feet.

 

I’ll pull over have me a break, maybe a swig of water, and watch for the traffic to get moving again!  That’s why I don’t go to all those “trailer week” rallies anymore!!  I bought my motorcycle to ride! Not to push down the street or for everyone else to look at.

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8 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

They put kickstands and on/off switches on bikes just for those “stuck in traffic” and standing traffic situations.  You more than likely won’t get where you’re going more than a minute or two quicker inching forward and stopping every ten feet.

 

I’ll pull over have me a break, maybe a swig of water, and watch for the traffic to get moving again!  That’s why I don’t go to all those “trailer week” rallies anymore!!  I bought my motorcycle to ride! Not to push down the street or for everyone else to look at.

I have done that before. Or I just split lanes or roll down the side, regardless of state laws. 
 

 

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Funny, all you non-metric guys seem to think only Japanese bikes use metric. My favorite bike of all of them were my Laverda 750 twins. Air cooled, chain drive, nice handling but a decently heavy bike. I was working at Honda bike shops at the time and caught some flack, mostly good-natured, as it looked like a Honda 305 on steroids. Nice in the twisties, and yet it worked great for longer distances, like when my best friend and I went on a 10 day ride covering most of California and some of Nevada. It got better mileage than his Honda 500 Four. It did vibrate a bit, making the mirrors mostly decorations. I liked it much better then my Moto Guzzi El Dorado, even though that was bigger.

  For the last 15 years my main ride had been a BMW R100, an air cooled 1000cc twin. I met my wife due to that bike, so she has told me I can never sell it. It now has a sidecar on it, drove the kids everywhere with it. Not a good twistie bike, but I don't do that any more anyway, as I don't heal up as well as I did in my pre 67 year old days.

  A few months ago I bought a used 1982 Honda GL500, a watercooled transverse v-twin, with shaft drive. I always liked them back when I worked on them as a Honda mechanic, so I figured I would try one out again. Yes, I am not crazy about radiators but it allows the bike to have tighter tolerances and help it last longer in spite of the higher revs needed. And they didn't cause any problems back in the day, as it is a simple set-up with all the parts easy to access. I am going to add a small windshield, as one of the things I do not like are huge fairings. You may think a radiator is a non motorcycle item, but it is nothing compared to the huge hunk of plastic hung in front of the handlebars. Blocks your view, gets in the way of maintenance, makes the bike heavier in the worst, top heavy spot. Almost as bad as a huge luggage trunk hung behind the back seat. But then I am still at heart a lo-bar kinda rider, just go slower than I used to. I ride most every day, and haven't managed to get myself knocked off for the last 40 years. Guess those early crashes taught me something.

  

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I have not gone through all 3 pages.

Have had a few bikes. From a Suzuki Boulevard C50. Kawasaki Nomad 1700.

To the 2010 HD Ultra Classic I have now.

 

I only know which one I have felt the safest on. And that's the HD.

Plus, it's just more comfortable to ride. Although that Nomad was a pretty nice ride.

 

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For you Harley guys, you do know that there are Harleys with radiators now don't  ya? Straight from the factory.  Same with Indians.  Not something you can just blame on us metric riders....

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A at least two Harleys measured in CCs ,,, 1,250 to be exacta...

And they have "RADS"...

And I have owned a Harley, and rode a bunch of other's Harleys, and I will never Buy ONE Again...

In my view they are overweight , overpriced , Need far more "Wrenching', And are underpowered, have poor brakes, can't corner worth a Hoot...

Most European and Japanese bikes of 650 cc. and above have more Horse Power and have to haul a lot less Pork...

They have been getting better, but you are still mostly buying into a myth...

Flame away... 

 

Jabez Cowboy 

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Big or small doesn't matter  (mine is a 2003 heritage classic)

Just make sure it's LOUD and VISIBLE (led lighting)

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17 hours ago, T.K. said:

Big or small doesn't matter  (mine is a 2003 heritage classic)

Just make sure it's LOUD and VISIBLE (led lighting)

What’s a real shame is even with LED lighting self absorbed idiots will still find a way to get ya!


Night shots of my bike. In the daylight I run the high beam too. On my way to work in the morning on the freeways of CA I would see CHP, LAPD and other local Motor Patrol officers running all their lights, including their high beam. Most motorcycle cops take their rides home. As luck e would have it, one day I encountered a CHP and an LAPD officer at the gas station on their bikes. I asked them if they were allowed to use their high beams at night. I was thinking they might get a bit testy, but both of them said they were not but they weren’t going to get hit because of idiots in the road. I asked if I was allowed to run high beams at night and the CHP officer said “Not legally, but there isn’t a Motor Patrol Officer in California that would pull you over for it.” The LAPD officer added “But, don’t be surprised if a patrol unit does. They hate bikes. Even us.” Then they both grinned. 
I have a feeling these guys were friends. 
I never run high beams at night though. 

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