Speaking of squibs ...

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

At Thunder River Renegades' annual match this past Thursday-Saturday, a shooter took his first shot with his first pistol and nothing happened.  Or so EVERYONE thought, including the shooter, the TO, all three counters, the brass picker, and all spectators.  It seemed like a failed primer or light strike.  But when he tried to cock the hammer, the cylinder would not turn.  The cowboy declared a broke gun and finished shooting that stage.  I was watching from and overseeing the unloading table and had thought the same -- bad primer or light strike -- until the gun was obviously locked up, a very different problem.  When I inspected his gun (which still had four live rounds in it), it was immediately clear that a bullet had traveled just far enough to bridge the cylinder-to-forcing cone gap, thus locking the cylinder in place.  NOT A SINGLE PERSON HEARD OR CALLED THE SQUIB.  I was able to loosen the bullet from the forcing cone but was unable to push it fully back into the cylinder as the case was still inside that chamber.  Complete disassembly of the front end of the gun was required in order to remove the base pin so that the cylinder could then be wobbled after the bullet was partially backed out.  I repeat: NOT A SINGLE PERSON HEARD OR CALLED THE SQUIB.  Had the bullet traveled a half inch further, the next pull of the trigger would have been disastrous for at least the gun, and possibly the shooter and other humans nearby.  The cowboy assured me that it couldn't be a light or missing charge because he double checks all his cases to verify that they are charged and not double-charged.  Later in the match, said same cowboy had a squib in his rifle; this second time, everyone heard it and the TO stopped the cowboy before he took the next shot.  This time, after we cleared the barrel, I asked him to think about his reloading setup, reloading procedure, reloading bench area, and everything and anything that might be distracting him when he reloads because -- clearly -- something is getting in the way of achieving 100% reliability in his homemade ammo.

[July Smith]

I'd be curious and willing to bet the loads in question were well below published load data.  He may have verified that each load had powder but it just wasn't enough.  Luckily no serious damage occurred.  Load manuals have minimum and maximum weights for a reason, unfortunately a lot of SASS shooters seem obsessed with using a a load that is about 0.1gr over a squib most of the time.

 

Another possible explanation is old or questionable reloading components.  

[watab kid]

1 hour ago, July Smith said:

 

Another possible explanation is old or questionable reloading components.  

 

this was my first thought here 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

A few things:

1. When the first shot didn't produce a bang, and especially after the gun locked up, the shooter should have been told to stop, and restart the stage, or go fix the problem and then restart, since no round had gone downrange.

2. There was most likely no powder in the cartridge, and that's why the bullet stuck in the forcing cone.  Everybody must have had really good hearing protection.  If there had been any powder at all, the bullet probably would have gone further into the barrel, but it also would have increased the sound so more likely that the squib would have been noticed (heard) and called.

3. When a bullet is stuck into the forcing cone, the procedure is to use a squib rod to force the bullet back into the cylinder, which will also force the bullet back into its empty case, which then allows the cylinder to be easily removed without taking apart the pistol.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

"3. When a bullet is stuck into the forcing cone, the procedure is to use a squib rod to force the bullet back into the cylinder, which will also force the bullet back into its empty case, which then allows the cylinder to be easily removed without taking apart the pistol."

That is more theory than practice.  We tried but there is a limit to how hard one is willing to hammer on the end of the brass squib rod.

[Rip Snorter]

These used to be available commercially, brass or resin.  I keep a chunk of brass rod and a rawhide hammer in my kit.

[Sedalia Dave]

41 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

"3. When a bullet is stuck into the forcing cone, the procedure is to use a squib rod to force the bullet back into the cylinder, which will also force the bullet back into its empty case, which then allows the cylinder to be easily removed without taking apart the pistol."

That is more theory than practice.  We tried but there is a limit to how hard one is willing to hammer on the end of the brass squib rod.

 

Have done it and seen others do it many times. The secret is to start with the rod in the beginning and not resort to it after the bullet has been mangled by trying other methods that will not work.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

OK, well, next time I'll tell the poor unfortunate soul that we're going to do that first, and hopefully we'll have better luck with it.  We did try to re-seat the bullet in its case, believe me ... but we failed.  And I don't think we did anything before that to mangle the bullet or the case mouth.  It was his gun I was working on, and I just didn't feel right about hammering any harder than I already was hammering, and I guess neither did he.  (I then moved his gun to an unoccupied and unused (that day) loading table where he did some disassembly and performed the bulletectomy.)

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

"1. When the first shot didn't produce a bang, and especially after the gun locked up, the shooter should have been told to stop, and restart the stage, or go fix the problem and then restart, since no round had gone downrange."

Yes, I may be remembering that sequence incorrectly -- it may have been his second shot of five planned.  No re-start was warranted.

 

"2. There was most likely no powder in the cartridge, and that's why the bullet stuck in the forcing cone.  Everybody must have had really good hearing protection.  If there had been any powder at all, the bullet probably would have gone further into the barrel, but it also would have increased the sound so more likely that the squib would have been noticed (heard) and called."

Exactly.  I kept insisting that he had entirely skipped charging the case.  Given the fact that all of his other rounds went off (during that and other stages anyway, save his OTHER squib), it was not likely bad powder.  We were all amazed that no one heard it though, to be fair, there were four posses shooting and one was on the next  stage immediately to our left, so there was a lot of noise to contend with.  He ultimately suspected that his focus during a reloading session was interrupted by his dog.  It seems to me that allowing a dog in the vicinity of the reloading bench while actually reloading (if that's what happened) is not the best idea, but not being a dog owner, dog person, dog whatever, I'm not in the best position to say.

[John Kloehr]

I am not a reloading expert, but in preparation I have done some reading.

 

From what little I know, a very light load leaving too much air space in the cartridge can also squib, if the primer spark does not reach the powder.

 

So I also suggest evaluating the actual load.

[McCandless]

16 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

At Thunder River Renegades' annual match this past Thursday-Saturday...

 

Sounds like you done good, and helped the shooter with some advice.   

I'm wondering if the shooter perhaps doesn't check inside the cases before putting the powder in... some debris clogging the flash hole?   Maybe a bit of corncob or walnut cleaning media?   All speculation at this time.  Your suggestion for him to revisit every step is a good 'un.  

 

[Hoss]

We used to have a shooter that had ammo all over the place. 
BOOM

boom

KABOOM

Pffft. 
I guess on average his loads were good

 

Many of us offered to help him with his reloading, but he never took anyone up on it. We finally had to tell him factory ammo only. 

[watab kid]

its not that hard but often the nuances escape some of us - ive settled into hand loading , i hand prime , i hand dispense powder to each case and single stage every cartridge , its not that i think the progressives are bad .....its more that i want to know every round is what i built it to be , besides its fun to do and when i have time in the winter its a nice experience , not as good as a shoot but lets me think on that a little , i like shooting my handloads , feels more real 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I also load on a single stage press and have not yet had any problem keeping up with the ammo needs of me and Bullion Rose.  Most of what I load has reasonable +/- tolerance for powder charge variation, but some (like the light 32S&W) require individual weighing of each charge to get to consistent tenth of a grain accuracy.  I don't know any different so I can't say whether I'd like a progressive setup.  With the single stage press, I do feel that I have excellent control over what is going into each case.  I also have created "process sheets" for each cartridge I load -- step-by-step down to the very tiniest steps, movements of the ram, etc. -- and even though I know I can load without looking at them, I always have the one I'm using hanging on the wall right in front of my face and I'm constantly looking at it to make sure I haven't skipped anything whether by distraction or simple oversight or whatever.  And I load in a silent room where no one can bother or interrupt me, and my phone is turned off.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I read a hint years ago.  When using a progressive (Dillon 550 in my case), if you get interrupted or need to stop for any reason, stop with the ram handle in the down position.  When you return, you know exactly where you are so you don't forget something.

[Eyesa Horg]

I usually just finish the ones on the press and start from zero.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

When I get interrupted I'll cycle all the cases out of the progressive press and start over.

 

 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

12 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I usually just finish the ones on the press and start from zero.

This has worked well for me for many years. 
Regards

    
Gateway Kid

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I’ve heard the buzzer sound for powder check but it was for a little to much.  Kept going.  After a few squibs I checked the case when it happens again.  It had grid between the primer and powder.  Now I check those every time. No squibs since.  The last squibs was at an eot and cost me the match

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:20 PM, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

I’ve heard the buzzer sound for powder check but it was for a little to much.  Kept going.  After a few squibs I checked the case when it happens again.  It had grid between the primer and powder.  Now I check those every time. No squibs since.  The last squibs was at an eot and cost me the match

 

I have found wet tumbling with SS chips does a great job of cleaning both inside and out of the cases.  Gets any 'stuff' in the inside out

[Dusty Devil Dale]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:20 PM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

A few things:

1. When the first shot didn't produce a bang, and especially after the gun locked up, the shooter should have been told to stop, and restart the stage, or go fix the problem and then restart, since no round had gone downrange.

2. There was most likely no powder in the cartridge, and that's why the bullet stuck in the forcing cone.  Everybody must have had really good hearing protection.  If there had been any powder at all, the bullet probably would have gone further into the barrel, but it also would have increased the sound so more likely that the squib would have been noticed (heard) and called.

3. When a bullet is stuck into the forcing cone, the procedure is to use a squib rod to force the bullet back into the cylinder, which will also force the bullet back into its empty case, which then allows the cylinder to be easily removed without taking apart the pistol.

In this case, nobody heard the primer pop, so another possibility exists--and a dangerous one. 

 

There is a chance that a loose, uncrimped  bullet is part-way  inside the forcing cone, but still sitting over a fully live cartridge that got a light primer hit.   Pushing the cartridge back hard against a then-extended firing pin could be catastrophic, if the cartridge did have a still active primer and powder.  (How many times have we seen a primer pop on the second or third try?)

 

I've had that situation once before.  I used a wooden squib rod/dowel to push the extended bullet back into the case.  I did not push it by hand, and certainly did not tap or hammer on it.  Instead, I very gently pressed the end of the squib rod into a post.  The bullet easily slipped back into the case, to free the chamber.  

The hammer obviously could not be cocked to withdraw the firing pin, with the cylinder locked up.

 

The bottom line is to think thoroughly through the possibilities before taking action.  Accident scenarios are not always obvious or even visible.

 

Just thoughts. 

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:29 AM, Hoss said:

We used to have a shooter that had ammo all over the place. 
BOOM

boom

KABOOM

Pffft. 
I guess on average his loads were good

 

Many of us offered to help him with his reloading, but he never took anyone up on it. We finally had to tell him factory ammo only. 

 

 

When I am around a shooter with loads like that I try to get behind something that is fairly thick.  I was standing to the left rear of one on a stage one day and he had a REAL KSBOOM.  Half of the pistol cylider went across in front of me and the other half went through a wall on his right.  

 

Blackfoot

[Hoss]

6 minutes ago, BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 said:

 

 

When I am around a shooter with loads like that I try to get behind something that is fairly thick.  I was standing to the left rear of one on a stage one day and he had a REAL KSBOOM.  Half of the pistol cylider went across in front of me and the other half went through a wall on his right.  

 

Blackfoot

My problem is I’m the thickest thing around. All the counters would be hiding behind me!!!