44 - 40 Brass

[Hawk Eyes Hudson]

I am going to start loading my own ammo.  When, Who Knows!  I am picking up bits and pieces for a Dillon xl750 press and when, a die here special parts their.  At least when I decide to pull the trigger on the press I should have some of the components to complete the setup.  Very expensive but intriguing.  I recently went to Starline and backordered 1000/38 Spl and 500/44 mag.  The 38 delivered last week.  Crazy.  No 44 yet.  But someone please tell me why no one is producing 44 - 40.  Starline will not even entertain a backorder.  Anyways, I want to start with 38 spl, 44 Special, 45 acp and yes the notorious 44-40 round.  I ran across a Lee 44-40 Crimp die and brought it.  Now I need to figure our what comes next to fill out the die set for that caliber.  I have read that Redding is compatible but do they sell the individual dies or do I buy a set and just swap the Lee for their crimp tool.  I, like everyone want to save as much as I can.  I want to set up the Quick Change kit for these 4 calibers.  It will be a slow process but I think the end result will be accomplished.  Any input and direction will be much appreciated.  

 

With respect,

HEH

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

My guess would be for the same reason I can't get Starline 32-20 brass. They are going to make and sell the popular brass with the most demand. We might think that 32-20 & 44-40 have a big demand, put in the grand scheme of things probably not.

[T-Square]

Starline ran 44-40 last month.

I check the website frequently (maybe once a week), and the 'taking back orders' button magically appeared one day.  I put in an order, assuming it would be months away ( like every other time ) and darn if the brass didn't show up five days later !

In Summary, they are making it, but you got to be lucky or aware or both  - and pounce when its available.

I would agree with all the business related comments.  You can be sure they are making the most profitable products first - whether that is brass for ammunition manufacturer or retail sales  - regardless of caliber.  But they are making it.

[La Sombra]

Two choices:

1) A classified WTB Ad on the Wire

2) You may just have to pay the piper and buy it off Gunbroker.

 

La Sombra

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I have used both the Lee Factory Crimp Die and the Redding Profile Crimp Die for .44-40.    The Redding performs a lot better.  Gives a tight crimp, and ensures the neck has NO bulges below the crimp (something the Lee can leave you with). 

 

Most straight wall, thick wall pistol cases do not need special attention to crimping.  The bottleneck cases (32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 family) though are thin wall cases which deform (bulge) easily.   A two-step seat then crimp process works much better on these bottlenecks. 

 

good luck, GJ

[Trailrider #896]

I have used RCBS .44-40 dies for years (the regular ones, not the Cowboy Action ones).  The only recommendation I have is to order an extra expander insert normally used for .44 Magnum, which will expand the case mouth enough for .429-.430" bullets, if you determine the larger bullets are suitable for the guns you will be shooting.  I have found Winchester .44-40 brass to have the thinnest walls, which helps in my Rossi '92 and Old Model Ruger Vaqueros. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Much faster caliber change over with a Dillon 550.

[Kid Rich]

The Lee FCD die works fine for 44/40.

kR

["Big Boston"]

My journey into the world of 44 WCF (44-40) is in all likelihood very similar to most reloaders, but I did run into a few nuances along the way. I began with a Winchester '94 Commemorative in 44-40.

 

My brass was from the ammo I'd bought and fired, and some was new Starline brass. I used LEE dies in a turret press and didn't have any issues, it appeared to be a fairly straight forward caliber to load for. Other than having to deal with the odd damaged neck, pretty routine. 

 

Since then I've acquired and sold a few 44-40 firearms and upgraded to a Dillon 550 press. The stable now has a '73 Win Uberti, a  Smokewagon  and a Vaquero. So, three firearms with a few different chamber dimensions. Not that the chambers vary much, but there are differences. 

 

I also added a Redding die set to the tool list. IMO Redding reloading tools are top drawer, pretty nicely built precision tools. LEE dies are made properly, but are not precision tools. 

 

One of the first issues was, when converting from my turret to the progressive, that in one of my firearms, I had difficulties chambering the ammunition. The why was that the shoulder on some of the brass was a bit further forward than others, due to chamber variations. The shoulder was not being set back enough in the FL die to make ammo that would fit in all chambers. This wasn't an issue when I loaded with the turret. The reason being that in the turret, I was setting the FL die a bit past contact, and the shoulder was being positioned back far enough that there were no issues. However, that is not how I set them in a progressive. I set the FL die so it just touches the shell plate or a wee bit of clearance. To my way of thinking so as not to damage the shell plate.

 

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets/redding-profile-crimp-die

 

The 44-40 has a shoulder, but it does not headspace on it. Similar to the 303 Br if one of those is in you repertoire. The LEE and Redding dies only set the shoulder back a few thou, and one of my chambers is cut to near minimum and things get a little close. Handgun ammo works best a little bit on the loose side. One of the dies, I forget which, was a bit better, but I wanted to set the shoulder back more than minimally. Online info called for grinding 0.050" off the bottom of the FL die. This is fairly radical, in the real world a lot less removal of metal is required. I did the rework to the LEE FL die, cheaper and easier to replace than the Redding was my rational. I removed the recommended 050.  FL dies are hardened, just the surface, and 050 will go through that. After shortening the die, you'll want to bell the opening, and because some of the metal is no longer hard, restoring the bell is a bit of a task. I don't have a lathe, I accomplished the task with a drill press and Dremel tool. 

 

I then measured the shoulder position on a bunch of my brass and adjusted the die so that there was sufficient shoulder setback. I could get scientific and refer to the SAAMI drawings, but in reality, you just want enough shoulder setback so that the ammo easily chambers in all your chambers. Don't forget to check the setting of the decapping rod/pin of the FL die when you are done. 

 

That takes care of the FL station. On to sizing the inside of the case mouth and belling the brass. Just because it is a possibility, the FL die may not size the neck of the brass enough if you need 427 dia bullets to fit your gun. I'll assume that your firearms are all Italian or Japanese and are 429 groove. Dillon supplies a #4 funnel with the 550 conversion kit, it is for 427 bullets and would just slip into the neck of my resized brass. I recently purchased a "G" (44 Mag/Spl) funnel, but I've yet to reload with it. My thinking is that it will work a bit better than the #4. I size all my bullets at 430, at or a bit larger than the groove dia of my barrels. It works, so I'm not going to overthink that detail. The 44-40 is like the 38-55 in that respect, there is only so big a bullet that will work before the neck of the ammo will not fit into the chamber. Just one of those nuance things I suppose. 

 

That brings us to the bullet seating station. Here I use my LEE bullet seating die, set so that it does not crimp. The LEE seating stem does not accommodate flat point bullets all that well, so I reworked it, just flat, it works for me. 

 

On the 550 the last station, the fourth, crimps. All my bullets have a crimp groove, and I only bell my cases minimally, so I just use the Redding seat and crimp die. I do not remove the seating stem, I set it for the same seating depth as the LEE. I've had issues with the LEE seating stem screw backing out, the Redding is my fail safe. I check the LEE setting every so often. 

 

For cowboy work, I don't think the LEE FCD is required, nor do I think it is what is what you'd want. The regular Redding die does a decent enough job. I've never had any issues with it or the regular LEE crimper. Both crimp nicely. 

 

If my explanation isn't techy enough, this https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading web site has a poop ton of information. 

 

BB

[Hawk Eyes Hudson]

Thanks Ranger Dan,

That's a lot for this neophyte to digest, but it is just the kind of grind I need.  It makes me think and to me that's where everything starts.  I have read the ups and downs of reloading and is it right for me?  I have always been taught that if you can do it yourself you are miles ahead in any game.  I will make mistakes but your experience has certainly got the grey matter to bubble. 

 

Happy Trails and Happy New Year!

 

Hawk Eyes Hudson

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

Heads up, when you get your brass back at a shoot make sure it is 44-40.  45 Colt will bring your reloading to a halt in a big hurry.  It doesn’t run through your 44-40 sizing die at all well but it looks very, very close.

[Eyesa Horg]

10 hours ago, Desert Pete SASS #42168 said:

Heads up, when you get your brass back at a shoot make sure it is 44-40.  45 Colt will bring your reloading to a halt in a big hurry.  It doesn’t run through your 44-40 sizing die at all well but it looks very, very close.

I put a magic marker stripe across my brass, makes it real fast to sort. The only ones I have to actually read/check are the few I get back with no stripe. Works real well for catching the occasional 357 mixed in with Ellie's 38s.

[Fort Reno Kid]

Howdy Pards

 

Don’t try this at home but let me pass on an experience.

 

Years back a shootin’ buddy (who has now crossed over The Rainbow Bridge) was known to bring two and even three different calibers to a Cowboy Match. Yep … he occasionally mixed cartridges.

 

Now … no way you’re going to stuff a 45 in a 44/40 chamber. 
 

BUT … a 44/40 in a 45 chamber? It did in his shootin’ iron. And he shot a cylinder full of ‘em at a stage. Make a “bang”? Nope. More like a “pop”. And out came a case that was fireformed close to 45 Colt dimensions.

 

He later told us the fireformed brass wouldn’t go into the 44/40 sizing die. So … he reloaded ‘em as 45’s and used ‘em a number of times until they expired from age and repeated reloadings.

 

In my own experience, I once bot a small batch of used 45 brass at a gun show. After I’d polished, sized, and loaded ‘em I noticed that a few had a 44/40 headstamp. I went ahead and fired them without an issue. Afterwards I was able to correctly resize ‘em as 44/40’s.  Best of my recollection that brass held up well despite having gone thru some unorthodox procedures.

Keep on the sunny side 

 

Adios

 

Fort Reno Kid 

 

Side note. When I reload 38/40’s and 44/40’s, I first seat the bullets to correct OAL and then as an additional step, run them through the Lee factory crimp die. It involves an extra step but it’s prevented having a projectile loosen and jam a cylinder or “trombone” in a rifle’s tubular magazine.

 

 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I’ve been loading .44-40 for my Miroku Winchester 1873 for about two years.  I have a lot of experience loading straight wall pistol ammo and I read different articles and posts about loading .44-40.  I was lucky that a fellow cowboy shooter was selling off his dies and a fair quantity of Starline brass.  I really enjoy shooting the .44-40 and it really shines as a black powder cartridge.  Lots of neat history.

 

I’m using RCBS Cowboy dies (a three die set).  I have both the Lee Factory Crimp die and a Redding Profile Crimp Die.

 

The original specifications for this cartridge called for a .427 bullet.  Many modern firearms use the same .429 groove diameter in the barrel as they use for .44 Special/.44 Magnum.  My seller had purchased a second expander plug for .429 which is what I use since my barrel slugged at .429.

 

My rifle has digested two different brands of factory ammo with no issues but the only handloaded ammo that chambers properly is in Starline brass.  Other brands pass my Wilson cartridge gauge but won’t chamber.  That might be my fault but I mostly have Starline brass so I roll with that.

 

Almost everything I read recommended seating and crimping in separate steps.  I am able to get excellent results with the RCBS seat/crimp die.  Go figure.

 

The sizing die is steel so you need to lubricate cases.  I find it sufficient to lightly lubricate one out of 4-5 cases.  Your mileage may very.

[WM. Brocious]

What kind of brass life do you 44-40 shooters get?

 

I have 45 Colt brass that I have fired and reloaded 70+ times.

[Savvy Jack]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:07 AM, Hawk Eyes Hudson said:

I am going to start loading my own ammo.  When, Who Knows!  I am picking up bits and pieces for a Dillon xl750 press and when, a die here special parts their.  At least when I decide to pull the trigger on the press I should have some of the components to complete the setup.  Very expensive but intriguing.  I recently went to Starline and backordered 1000/38 Spl and 500/44 mag.  The 38 delivered last week.  Crazy.  No 44 yet.  But someone please tell me why no one is producing 44 - 40.  Starline will not even entertain a backorder.  Anyways, I want to start with 38 spl, 44 Special, 45 acp and yes the notorious 44-40 round.  I ran across a Lee 44-40 Crimp die and brought it.  Now I need to figure our what comes next to fill out the die set for that caliber.  I have read that Redding is compatible but do they sell the individual dies or do I buy a set and just swap the Lee for their crimp tool.  I, like everyone want to save as much as I can.  I want to set up the Quick Change kit for these 4 calibers.  It will be a slow process but I think the end result will be accomplished.  Any input and direction will be much appreciated.  

 

With respect,

HEH

 

The Cartridge

The 44 W.C.F. (Marlin's 44-40) "caliber" cartridges can be assembled using several different diameter bullets...typically, but not limited to, .4255", .427", .428", .429" and even .430". Dies need to be cut appropriately to load these various diameters with satisfactory results. If you resize a case using a resizing die for for a .4255" and expand for a .4255", then try to cram a .430" diameter bullet into the case mouth, it will get real ugly real fast.
Winchester discontinued their .4255" JSP bullets for handloaders a few years ago and never did offer their .427" swaged lead bullets for handloaders with the advent of CAS. Both the .4255" and .427" is all Winchester ever used.

 

The Barrel

Many early Winchester barrel bores were as small as .4225" and as large as .433", but Winchester only manufactured the two different diameter bullets.

Modern 

Today, Japchester still makes .427" bored barrels from what I hear, while other's (I have an Italichester myself) make typically .429" bored barrels.

 

Chamber Pressures

In order to keep chamber pressures below max, the .4255" JSP and .427" lead is all that Winchester would load. Other larger bore barrels will except larger diameter bullets BUT great care must betaken to not load a large diameter bullet into a small diameter bore. This could cause chamber pressures to exceed max pressures.

In general, many shooters choose to slug each bore and load a size larger than the bore. This is not necessary for lightly loaded CAS loads. Even if accuracy is desired, I use a .428" sized lead bullet in a .429" bore with great accuracy out to 265 yards when loaded to "max loads", creating enough pressures to expand the led into the bore.

Many shooters have success with different applications, you will just have to see what works for you.

1. Slug Barrel

2. Choose diameter to be used

3. Choose dies to said diameter bullets to be used. (make sure they work well with your press)

4. Choose the appropriate crimp (crimp groove vs no crimp groove)
 

Loading The 44-40

 

[Hawk Eyes Hudson]

17 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

 

The Cartridge

The 44 W.C.F. (Marlin's 44-40) "caliber" cartridges can be assembled using several different diameter bullets...typically, but not limited to, .4255", .427", .428", .429" and even .430". Dies need to be cut appropriately to load these various diameters with satisfactory results. If you resize a case using a resizing die for for a .4255" and expand for a .4255", then try to cram a .430" diameter bullet into the case mouth, it will get real ugly real fast.
Winchester discontinued their .4255" JSP bullets for handloaders a few years ago and never did offer their .427" swaged lead bullets for handloaders with the advent of CAS. Both the .4255" and .427" is all Winchester ever used.

 

The Barrel

Many early Winchester barrel bores were as small as .4225" and as large as .433", but Winchester only manufactured the two different diameter bullets.

Modern 

Today, Japchester still makes .427" bored barrels from what I hear, while other's (I have an Italichester myself) make typically .429" bored barrels.

 

Chamber Pressures

In order to keep chamber pressures below max, the .4255" JSP and .427" lead is all that Winchester would load. Other larger bore barrels will except larger diameter bullets BUT great care must betaken to not load a large diameter bullet into a small diameter bore. This could cause chamber pressures to exceed max pressures.

In general, many shooters choose to slug each bore and load a size larger than the bore. This is not necessary for lightly loaded CAS loads. Even if accuracy is desired, I use a .428" sized lead bullet in a .429" bore with great accuracy out to 265 yards when loaded to "max loads", creating enough pressures to expand the led into the bore.

Many shooters have success with different applications, you will just have to see what works for you.

1. Slug Barrel

2. Choose diameter to be used

3. Choose dies to said diameter bullets to be used. (make sure they work well with your press)

4. Choose the appropriate crimp (crimp groove vs no crimp groove)
 

Loading The 44-40

 

Hey Jack Savvy,

A lot to digest and I am new to the game.  I have read some of your info.  and will certainly explore more.  I shoot 38 spl and 44 Mag in Ruger Vaquero's and the same for my Italian  and Henry rifle's.  I have only one Winchester Miroku in 44 40 but nothin burns my biscuit when you cannot find ammo even if you willing to drop the coin.  I like a challenge and this is exactly why I shoot Cowboy!  My reloading for the 44 40 is starting with a set of Redding Dies, Lee Factory Crimp Die and a can of lube.  Hopefully Starline will push some brass out soon or I will start with range brass when I get setup.  That means more startup cost but time will cure.  I am lookin at Badman Bullets.  They have a 44/40 Cal in 165 Grain RNFP Polymer, Size .428.  Looks like it will work.  If you would message me with your setup I would like to see the stats on dry vs wet polishing, dies, powder and brass.  I got to start somewhere.  Happy Trails - Hawk Eyes Hudson

[Ranger Dan]

To add to Savvy Jacks info. The expander die is key to seat different diameter bullets with enough neck tension to prevent them telescoping into the case under recoil or magazine spring pressure. At the same time not deforming the neck causing chambering issues. Crimping is part of this process, but starting with the right expander die is key to when seating the bullet. Seating the bullet as straight as possible prevents deforming the neck. I use the RCBS Cowboy expander die, even though I'm loading on a Dillon 650 progressive press. It has a 2 step expansion that opens up the neck a couple thousands more at the top. When placing the bullet for seating, you can "press" the bullet in and it will sit straight under minimum tension and not move while you press it into the seating die. This keeps the bullet from rocking and deforming the neck because it is crooked while seating.

[Savvy Jack]

I do not know what diameter the Redding dies prefer. The Lee FCD is really designed for a shallow crimp bullet like the .4255" JSP of which Winchester used for a similar crimp for a few years. It can be used on bullets with no crimp groove but the dimeter should be .427" and no larger than .428". It works very well with Dick Dasterdly's Bug Lube bullets which have a shallow groove and soft lead.  Hard lead is less forgiving on everything and more precision is needed.

Some bullets have a deep roll crimp groove and some tight chambers may not like the deep roll if the diameter is too large. It can create a bulge just below the roll crimp and keep the cartridge from chambering in tight chambers. This is common with thick Remington brass. Can happen with Starline but it is thin enough to be forced in sometimes by the lever's action of the rifle without really even realizing there is an issue. It is most noticed when chambering in revolvers.

Starline is the best, not too thin or "elasticy" like Winchester brass and not too thick like Remington! CBC brass sucks (rim issues for some case holders), and I dislike Hornady and other brands for similar issues.

 

If you use .428" bullets, you can use nearly any die set. RCBS Cowboy Dies work well with these sizes. Lee dies work very well with smaller diameter bullets and sometimes you have to use a modified 44 Mag die for larger .433 diameter bullets...and is another can-o-worms.

It can get complicated...but doesn't have to be.

If you are using a Dillon, it would be best to find someone else that uses one and follow them through the process.

 

The 44-40 is very multifaceted than most realize. What works for some, may not work for others.

[Sedalia Dave]

All my rifles like .430" bullets so I use a 44 mag powder funnel. To get a proper crimp with .430" bullets I bought a 44 mag crimp die and then modified it with a carbide hone so that it would work with 44-40 brass. Took a lot of work with a drill press with a vice mounted to it to keep from going too deep into the die but after several hours of honing and test fitting I finally got it to clear the shoulder.