Precision rifle build

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

A while back, I posted seeking advice on turning my old Remington 700 in .30-06 into a 600 yard precision rifle.  I have decided to leave the old gun alone (it already has a Timney trigger, which is the extent of the accurizing I'm going to bother with on this gun) and put one together, starting afresh.  The Remington is a good hunter out to 300 yards with a Leupold 3-9X40 scope. 

 

I have already obtained this scope:  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021458259?pid=153697  It cost me an arm and a leg, but holy Moses, that's one heck of a scope! 

 

I'm going to put it on a Weatherby Vanguard in 6.5 Creedmoor.  The caliber is the absolute best for long range shooting, and it's stout enough to take deer-sized game with no problem.  Some argue--and I know a few folks who do it--that it's good enough for elk.  This is going to be my antelope rifle, so I frankly don't care about the elk argument.  The gun is currently on lay-a-way at my friend's shop.  The Weatherby is a solid rifle to begin with, but the caliber is what sold me.  Seriously, look up the ballistics on the 6.5 Creedmoor; it's amazing. 

 

I just ordered a Timney trigger for it.  I'm totally sold on these; there is no factory trigger out there that will even remotely compare.  Sure, you can probably get even better by paying a gunsmith to spend countless hours, but the Timney is remarkable for a 600 yard gun.  The factory trigger on the Weatherby is pretty good, but I've become rather particular about my triggers.  Factory won't do it, and the Timney was only about $125 and is as close to drop-in as anything.

 

Then I'm going to add a solid bi-pod.  No cheapies.  I don't have one picked out yet, although I have bi-pods on my other hunting rifles that do fine. 

 

I'm going to pay my gunsmith to mount the scope, swap the trigger, and glass bed the action/barrel all in one fell swoop. 

 

This is going to be a solid gun, but the key to precision riflemanship is the ammo!  I'm going to use these Redding dies:  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018258755?pid=930915  Notice this box contains a neck sizing die.  Neck sizing, as opposed to full length sizing, will essentially match the ammo to the specific gun; it may not work in another gun of the same caliber, but it's going to be tailored specifically for my gun! 

 

Provided I can find them, this is going to be my go-to bullet:  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010508373?pid=122315  I have had excellent luck with that bullet in other calibers, and this one is not only an extreme version of a spitzer with the highest ballistic coefficient available, but it is designed to expand on impact.  So it gets the best of both worlds -- the outstanding accuracy of a target bullet with the terminal performance of a hunting bullet. 

 

I figure the amount of money I'm dumping into this new gun is about the same I would have spent re-barreling and accurizing the old Remington, but I'm doing it with a caliber specifically designed for long range shooting.  And no, I couldn't rebarrel the Remington in 6.5 Creedmore because the .30-06 is a "long action," whereas the 6.5 Creedmoor is a "short action."  You can only go long to long, or short to short when rebarreling.  So I had previously been considering .300 Win. Mag. to reach out, but I don't need a magnum cartridge to shoot 600 yards, and the 6.5 Creedmore has better ballistics. 

 

So there you go.  Due to the expense of the project, it won't be done any time soon, but I'll keep you up to date.

[JD Lud]

Sounds fun!  What magnification does the reticle read correct MOA on would be my only concern as a hunting rifle?  Hopefully it’s not max power….assuming 12 or 16?  Looks like a nice optic for sure!

 

After trying neck sizing I’m not sure it’s worth the cost of the extra die or potential extraction fun but that’s just me.  

 

I’ll still try and talk you into this light, handy rifle with a 10 round mag good for target shooting and hunting and do nothing to it and easily get under 1/2 moa….but likely too late   Could always go 6.5 prc….glad you avoided the 6.5 Weatherby though.
 

Always exciting to get a new setup!  Congrats and looking forward to the final.

 

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/rifles/tikka-t3x-compact-tactical-black-bolt-action-rifle-65-creedmoor/p/1470281

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

1 minute ago, JD Lud said:

Sounds fun!  What magnification does the reticle read correct MOA on would be my only concern as a hunting rifle?  Hopefully it’s not max power….assuming 12 or 16?  Looks like a nice optic for sure!

 

It's a dual focal plane, meaning the reticle doesn't change when you change the magnification.  So it's ALWAYS reading correct MOA

[JD Lud]

Huh…scope link showed a Second Focal Plane which the reticle would stay the same size but the sub tensions are only correct on a certain power and I haven’t ever seen a dual plane scope so new to me.

 

FFP would have correct readings at any magnification. 

[Sedalia Dave]

26 minutes ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

Then I'm going to add a solid bi-pod.  No cheapies.  I don't have one picked out yet, although I have bi-pods on my other hunting rifles that do fine. 

 

My Grandson builds custom long range hunting rifles for a living. He speaks highly of Atlas Bi-pods.

 

He is also a fan of Bertram Brass.

 

[Chief Rick]

Cyrus,

 

That is a second focal plane scope and the grid for this reticle (ZMOAi-T20 | Reticle 65 Illuminated) will only be accurate at 24x magnification.  The below is from the data sheet from the Zeiss website, and look at reference "F".

 

At 6x magnification, each subtension will be 4 MOA vice 1 MOA.

 

[Pat Riot]

7 hours ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

Provided I can find them, this is going to be my go-to bullet:  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010508373?pid=122315  I have had excellent luck with that bullet in other calibers, and this one is not only an extreme version of a spitzer with the highest ballistic coefficient available, but it is designed to expand on impact.  So it gets the best of both worlds -- the outstanding accuracy of a target bullet with the terminal performance of a hunting bullet. 

I think I found a source. The Bullet Works.

https://www.thebulletworks.net/product-p/nbth-6.5-140.htm
I have never heard of them but they appear legit. 
The reasons I think they’re legit:
They’re out of Asheboro NC and there are multiple business sources that have them listed. 
Their website isn’t smart phone friendly. 
They take credit cards, not Zelle or Bitcoin. 
I cannot see the business on Google Streetview but they appear as a business in Google Maps. 

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

My father (one of the wisest men I've ever known) taught me neck sizing as a child.
Brass is fire formed to the individual rifle's chamber; neck sizing alone guarantees the greatest precision, shot-to-shot, with this custom formed brass.
He's annealed his brass as necessary, and subscribes to the old Everlast case theory: he bought a box of twenty new unprimed .250 Savage, necked them down to .22 for the then-new-wildcat .22-250, and of twenty cases, he still has nineteen. (The twentieth was lost in a Morgan County hayfield while groundhog hunting)

I cannot offer intellectual comment on your choice of scope. I'm used to the external adjustment Lyman Super Target Spot with the quarter inch dot and black widow spider web cross hairs. (Certified old fossil here!)

You are speaking my language when you're discussing precision rifle build: your choices are sound, well thought out and spot-on.

Lead On Sir!

[Chantry]

Here's a link that some might find useful: https://www.6mmbr.com/index.html

 

And something I've learned from personal experience, make sure there is aftermarket support & accessories when selecting a carry gun or building a precision rifle.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

I have a hunting buddy who has a custom built 6.5 Creedmoor that shoots spot on out to 1000 yards. But there is one consideration that isn't talked about much....barrel life. His orginal barrel got less than 500 rounds thu it. He is now on his second barrel and the gunsmith told him that not to expect any better life out of the replacement barrel. 

 

I'll stick with my .300 Weatherby Ruger #1B with a Leupold VXIII 4x14 with a Leupold ballistic turret custom made for my handloads. Shoots less than minute of angle out to 1000 yards and will last longer than me.

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

10 hours ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

It's a dual focal plane, meaning the reticle doesn't change when you change the magnification.  So it's ALWAYS reading correct MOA

As far as I know, the only dual plain scope is made by Quigley - Ford that does not use electronics and that is about 3 grand.

 

[Chief Rick]

32 minutes ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

I have a hunting buddy who has a custom built 6.5 Creedmoor that shoots spot on out to 1000 yards. But there is one consideration that isn't talked about much....barrel life. His orginal barrel got less than 500 rounds thu it. He is now on his second barrel and the gunsmith told him that not to expect any better life out of the replacement barrel. 

 

I'll stick with my .300 Weatherby Ruger #1B with a Leupold VXIII 4x14 with a Leupold ballistic turret custom made for my handloads. Shoots less than minute of angle out to 1000 yards and will last longer than me.

The issue with the 6.5C is similar to that of the 243 Win - they will both eat barrels if allowed to.

 

I'm not sure what kind of barrel or what kind of loads your hunting buddy is running, but 500 rounds is a low number for even the 6.5C.  Most competitive shooters are getting between 1000-1500 before a barrel loses enough accuracy to warrant a change.  Even then, those barrels are still considered to be good enough for hunting at what I consider reasonable ranges.

 

IIRC, the 6.5C was designed to fire bullets with a sweet spot in the 2700-3000 fps range.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

I don't know the maker of his rifle, I do know he paid almost $4000 for it. The barrel (original & replacement) is carbon fiber wrapped around a stainless steel liner.

 

My son shoots a M600 Remington in .243 that I bought for him 45 years ago. He only shoots handloads in it and it has had 1000's of rounds through it. Still shoots MOA groups out to 500 yards. His loads chrono just a little over 3000 fps. Really never heard that .243 was a barrel burner. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The 6.5 C is a known bbl throat burner.

The biggest issue with LR accuracy is bullet run out.

You want a T.I.R. of .003 or less.

[JD Lud]

It’s not so much that the cartridge is a burner as the application that it’s used in.  Numerous shots in rapid succession, getting hot and used when hot helps accelerate throat erosion.   
 

carbon fiber would have a smaller steel profile and be more prone to heat….intended for fewer shots but being lighter to carry as the trade off. 
 

 

[J.D. Daily]

4 hours ago, JD Lud said:

It’s not so much that the cartridge is a burner as the application that it’s used in.  Numerous shots in rapid succession, getting hot and used when hot helps accelerate throat erosion.   
 

carbon fiber would have a smaller steel profile and be more prone to heat….intended for fewer shots but being lighter to carry as the trade off. 
 

 

Carbon fiber has decent heat transfer characteristics along the fiber axis.  Not good perpendicular to the fiber axis.  It would be better for a light weight barrel to use aluminum, titanium or scandium w/SS insert for the application.  For other than a hunting rifle I'd stay away from carbon fiber barrel with cartridges that have a reputation for throat erosion.  Whether the barrel is fabricated from carbon fiber cloth or continuous thread it has the thermal conductivity radially slightly better than glass.

P.S.  Carbon fiber barrels desirable quality is very ridged & light weight.  Desirable for a rifle one will pack up & down mountains.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

I am NOT convinced the 6.5 Creedmore is that much better than the 6.5x55  , at range 

 

 I feel the 6.5x55 , is a much better ctg, given it will do better with a wider range of bullet weights 

 

 Chickasaw Bill 

[Chantry]

7 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

I am NOT convinced the 6.5 Creedmore is that much better than the 6.5x55  , at range 

 

 I feel the 6.5x55 , is a much better ctg, given it will do better with a wider range of bullet weights 

 

 Chickasaw Bill 

Agreed and in a MODERN gun, the 6.5x55 can be loaded a little hotter then the published loads, which are intended for the Mauser 1896 action.  Barrel life should be longer due to the lower SAAMI pressures:   6.5 Creedmoor  - 62,000 PSI;  6.5x55 51,000 PSI

 

[Still hand Bill]

If you want 6.5cm performance in a long action, why not a 6.5-06?   The 6.5 cm is basically a 6.5-08 that’s had the shoulder bumped back to handle longer bullets.  There is nothing inherently special about the cm brass, as the 260 rem and 6.5 55 can all get similar ballistics.  The magic is the 6.5mm bullet.  High bc, reasonable weight.   

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

This will be fun to watch. I have a Remington action/barrel in 300 Win Mag on an old stock that I have been wanting to upgrade.

 

Permission to steal ideas, sir?

[Chief Rick]

3 hours ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

I am NOT convinced the 6.5 Creedmore is that much better than the 6.5x55  , at range 

 

 I feel the 6.5x55 , is a much better ctg, given it will do better with a wider range of bullet weights 

 

 Chickasaw Bill 

One thing that makes the 6.5C more popular is that it is available in a true short-action rifle.  To load the 6.5 Swede with modern ELD bullets requires an intermediate or even long action receiver  The 260 Remington can do the same thing if you order a custom barrel cut for the ELD bullets..

 

Another thing that makes the 6.5C more popular is the readily available match grade ammo that anyone can buy, without having to be a reloader.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I won't get into choices you have already made, it is your build, but I will say that they would't all be my choices  although I do only us Redding dies..   I recommend only ATLAS bi-pods for field use.  On my mid range (out to 900yds) We have 8 of the 10 shooters using 6.5Cr's. Another 260rem. and 1 using 6Cr.  On long range (out to 1 mile) we use magnums  although with hand loads and Berger 140 bullets a good shooter can print descent groups at 1 mile.       I STRONGLY  you consider BERGER bullets if you can find them.   Also the very low drag high BC bullets have a Secant ogive and can be VERY sensitive to OAL (jump to land) setting. The Berger hybrids are a nice balance of tangent and secant ogives and are not sensitive to OAL like the pure tangent bullets.

We do a LOT of long range precision shooting at my place both military and civilian.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

5 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

I won't get into choices you have already made, it is your build, but I will say that they would't all be my choices  although I do only us Redding dies..   I recommend only ATLAS bi-pods for field use.  On my mid range (out to 900yds) We have 8 of the 10 shooters using 6.5Cr's. Another 260rem. and 1 using 6Cr.  On long range (out to 1 mile) we use magnums  although with hand loads and Berger 140 bullets a good shooter can print descent groups at 1 mile.       I STRONGLY  you consider BERGER bullets if you can find them.   Also the very low drag high BC bullets have a Secant ogive and can be VERY sensitive to OAL (jump to land) setting. The Berger hybrids are a nice balance of tangent and secant ogives and are not sensitive to OAL like the pure tangent bullets.

We do a LOT of long range precision shooting at my place both military and civilian.

 

What is it you like about the Berger over the Sierra Match King in the 30 cal range?

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

No dog in the fight; and as stated already, it's your build. If I was going to do a build in the 6.5 mm range, I would start with a 264 Win mag. I believe that's the flattest shooting cartridge in that size. It's a great round that unfortunately has lost favor.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

HI Lumpy,  The issue with the Sierra in 30 cal for precision is that the 168 has the wrong boat tail angle and won't go through transonic. Even here at 5000ft it won't make it to 1000yds. It is OK at 900 at this elevation but not at 500ft ASL. The 175 grain WILL go through transonic. We have a guy who shoots them out to 1620 yds. The military .308 round uses a slightly different jacket but is basically the same as the civilian 175. We have trouble with the plastic tipped ones in both weights. They don't have the consistency of the Berger bullets. MY new Oehler 89 will show up the difference.  Berger just makes a better bullet. For 308 I really like the 168 hybrid and the 185 hybrid if you have fast enough twist(11). For the 300 Win I Really like both the 215 and 230 Hybrids. The 215 is a magic bullet out to 1  mile. Then the 230 out to 1 1/2 miles. I don't  fool with the VLD's because of the  problem with OAL and needing to change it every 200 rounds or so. Hope this helps.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

BTT

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

5 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

BTT

 

Why???

[Buckshot Bob]

On 11/30/2022 at 8:14 AM, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

I am NOT convinced the 6.5 Creedmore is that much better than the 6.5x55  , at range 

 

 I feel the 6.5x55 , is a much better ctg, given it will do better with a wider range of bullet weights 

 

 Chickasaw Bill 

For a production rifle the advantages I see in the creedmore, and many of the newer cartridges that they have set the manufacturer specs much tighter for these new cartridges and chambers also the faster twist rates allow the use of the heavier weight higher bc bullets. For someone who’s going to buy a factory rifle and especially the person who doesn’t reload the newer cartridges offer a big advantage just because they’ve shrunk the allowable tolerances vs something like the Swede. But in a custom application it’s all up to the builder how good it will be. 
But honestly for the majority of hunters out there you can probably go buy a Ruger American rifle “or another manufacturers lower end rifle” put a cheap Leupold/Vortex, etc… scope on it and buy a couple different boxes of factory ammo to find out what shoots best in it , and kill all the big game you want out to 500 yards. It’s amazing how well the the new factory guns and ammunition are compared to 30 years ago. We truly are living the golden age of firearms right now. 

[Buckshot Bob]

On 11/29/2022 at 12:40 AM, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

It's a dual focal plane, meaning the reticle doesn't change when you change the magnification.  So it's ALWAYS reading correct MOA

Here’s an explanation of 1st vs 2nd focal plane. Both have their advantages and disadvantages 

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/first-focal-plane-vs-second-focal-plane-scopes/460483

 

If you’re a military sniper or playing a shooting game I can see the advantages to a 1st focal plane but personally for hunting I honestly prefer a 2nd focal plane. But I’m simply not going to take a rushed long range shot hunting. Everyone’s theory’s and how the go about things vary 

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

12 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

But honestly for the majority of hunters out there you can probably go buy a Ruger American rifle “or another manufacturers lower end rifle” put a cheap Leupold/Vortex, etc… scope on it and buy a couple different boxes of factory ammo to find out what shoots best in it , and kill all the big game you want out to 500 yards. It’s amazing how well the the new factory guns and ammunition are compared to 30 years ago. We truly are living the golden age of firearms right now. 

Yep. We have done it for years. IMHO all the new cartridges are the result of marketing and selling more rifles. Most of us shoot our big game at less than 400 yards and with good shot placement, they are DEAD. If you want to shoot at ultra long ranges (0ver 500 yards in my opinion), go to the range and shoot to your hearts content. I am 81 years old and have hunted big game since I shot my first deer when I was 12. In the last 20 years I have seen lots of hunters try shooting way beyond their skill level with results that leave too many animals ruined or lost by poor shot placement. I am a very good shot, reload my own ammunition and have top of the line equipment (rifle & scope) and I won't shoot over 500 yards, their are to many variables to ruin shots. 

 

Nuff said.