Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Wild Bunch in your future?


Recommended Posts

I bought one of the 9mm 1911's for $329.  Took 2 weeks to finally ship. The ad says Taylor's & Company but we all know they are just the importer. The pistols are made by ARMSCOR. My research failed to turn up anything truly negative about ARMSCOR firearms so they should be good firearms.

 

Mine looks good and I am hoping to take it to the rage tomorrow if the rain lets up.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I won one several years ago, shot it in a couple of WB matches and bought a 2nd to match it as a backup.  I've not regretted that decision.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looked it up.   Price is great, but it's a mishmash of features.

They call it a 1911-A1, but the frame around the trigger guard is not recessed and it has a flat as opposed to arched main spring housing, which is like a 1911.   Seems to have an A1 style trigger and beavertail.   And no lanyard loop.  

I don't understand mixing some features and leaving others off on what is supposed to be a recreation of a historical design,
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Hendo said:

My wife has the Rock Island 1911 FS in 9mm. She has put something like 6000 rounds through it without a single hiccup. 

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. 

 

Good to know. I bought the ArmsCor 9mm 1911 when it was on sale.  Looks great. Just need to get some time at the range with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Good to know. I bought the ArmsCor 9mm 1911 when it was on sale.  Looks great. Just need to get some time at the range with it.

I must confess that Full-size 1911s in 9mm are stupid fun to shoot.

You'll enjoy it. 

You might want to get better mags for it, though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Hendo said:

I must confess that Full-size 1911s in 9mm are stupid fun to shoot.

You'll enjoy it. 

You might want to get better mags for it, though. 

 

Bought 5 Chip McCormick mags for it from Midway USA as part of a black Friday deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those are good prices! Unfortunately WB will not be in the future for the Burt’s as long as the rifle caliber requirement remains. Buying two more 1911s wouldn’t be that expensive. Buying three race ready 1873s in .45 would cost over $7,000 and I’m not THAT interested in WB.
 

I think that requirement is a major obstacle for many. Not to mention the need to purchase new dies, brass and bullets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many local clubs allow rifles other than .40 caliber minimum to compete in their monthly matches.   Plus, a well tuned Marlin 1894 or Rossi 1892 is well suited to Wild Bunch as well.   The rifle doesn't have the same effect in a WB match that it does in Cowboy.   The rifle round count in WB is often 6 - 8 rounds, seldom 9 or more.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've read about rifle round counts of 7 - 10, but I've rarely encountered a rifle count less than 10... maybe 9 on a very few occasions. I suppose it varies regionally.

 

DON'T MESS WITH THE .40+ CALIBER REQUIREMENT. :angry: You can "expand" interest in ANY category or side match by waiving or changing the rules on caliber, guns, sights, shooting style, leather, costuming, ammunition, smokeless/black powder, etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I've read about rifle round counts of 7 - 10, but I've rarely encountered a rifle count less than 10... maybe 9 on a very few occasions. I suppose it varies regionally.

 

DON'T MESS WITH THE .40+ CALIBER REQUIREMENT. :angry: You can "expand" interest in ANY category or side match by waiving or changing the rules on caliber, guns, sights, shooting style, leather, costuming, ammunition, smokeless/black powder, etc. 

What purpose does the caliber requirement serve other than to make participation more expensive?

 

9 hours ago, Griff said:

Many local clubs allow rifles other than .40 caliber minimum to compete in their monthly matches.   Plus, a well tuned Marlin 1894 or Rossi 1892 is well suited to Wild Bunch as well.   The rifle doesn't have the same effect in a WB match that it does in Cowboy.   The rifle round count in WB is often 6 - 8 rounds, seldom 9 or more.  

Thanks Griff, but a well tuned Marlin is going to run close to $2,000 anyway and I'm not interested in buying three rifles strictly for use in WB. 

 

In my opinion the caliber requirement serves no useful purpose and should be eliminated.  I'm not going to spend my hard earned money jumping through hoops that shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

Edited to add.

 

There's a reason many clubs are ignoring the caliber requirement.  Perhaps someone should take note.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been shooting Wild Bunch, when available, for the past 10-12 years.  It tries to separate itself from Cowboy Action Shooting by imposing caliber and power factor restrictions.  It also minimizes the number of categories available.  The 1911 pistol is by far the dominant firearm in the stage.  The rifle is probably the least important, as long as you hit everything.  Wild Bunch is almost a protest match against the things in CAS that the inventors didn't like.  Gamer rifles, loading shotguns on the clock, mouse fart rounds and 40+ categories.  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I've been shooting Wild Bunch, when available, for the past 10-12 years.  It tries to separate itself from Cowboy Action Shooting by imposing caliber and power factor restrictions.  It also minimizes the number of categories available.  The 1911 pistol is by far the dominant firearm in the stage.  The rifle is probably the least important, as long as you hit everything.  Wild Bunch is almost a protest match against the things in CAS that the inventors didn't like.  Gamer rifles, loading shotguns on the clock, mouse fart rounds and 40+ categories.  

 

 

Bob you know I have a lot of respect for you.  You're a good guy and a smart guy.  I'm going to respectfully disagree here.  Having a .40 caliber restriction on rifles does exactly nothing to reduce gaming in WB.  

 

If I wanted to drop the money I'm quite sure I could purchase a .45 caliber rifle that would run every bit as quickly as my current rifles do.   Recoil, from a rifle?  Come on, that's not a factor.  Shortstroke?  Pretty sure shortstrokes are legal in WB and easily available for .45 rifles.  Power factor?  What does that add to the experience of shooting a rifle?

 

This requirement increases the costs of entry AND participation significantly and does exactly nothing to add to the WB experience.  Please cite one benefit to WB from the requirement....I'll wait, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

It's water under the bridge though.  The requirement isn't going to change and turned me off on shooting WB long ago.  That's a shame, cause I love shooting 1911s and already own a couple of 97s and a rig suitable for WB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Capt. Bill, we don't disagree as much as you think.   I ran a Wild Bunch match at Cherokee for a year and allowed any SASS legal rifle.   Most local matches I've attended also allow any SASS legal rifle.  State and above enforce the caliber and power factor restrictions.  I was just trying to explain the thought process behind some of the restrictive rules.   I don't necessarily agree with all of them.   Most of the matches I've shot recently have had 7 rifle rounds and 21 to 28 pistol rounds.  Obviously, just shooting 7 rounds out of the rifle is a small part of the stage.  I shoot a Marlin 1894 in Wild Bunch because it was cheaper than a 73.  No need for me to upgrade.  Changing magazines, getting lead bullets to work in a 1911 and hitting all those far off pistol targets is much more time consuming than shooting 7 shots out of a rifle.  Even shooting 6 shotgun targets with a preloaded pump shotgun doesn't take very long.  Most of the emphasis has been put on shooting the 1911 with full loads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Bob you know I have a lot of respect for you.  You're a good guy and a smart guy.  I'm going to respectfully disagree here.  Having a .40 caliber restriction on rifles does exactly nothing to reduce gaming in WB.  

 

If I wanted to drop the money I'm quite sure I could purchase a .45 caliber rifle that would run every bit as quickly as my current rifles do.   Recoil, from a rifle?  Come on, that's not a factor.  Shortstroke?  Pretty sure shortstrokes are legal in WB and easily available for .45 rifles.  Power factor?  What does that add to the experience of shooting a rifle?

 

This requirement increases the costs of entry AND participation significantly and does exactly nothing to add to the WB experience.  Please cite one benefit to WB from the requirement....I'll wait, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

It's water under the bridge though.  The requirement isn't going to change and turned me off on shooting WB long ago.  That's a shame, cause I love shooting 1911s and already own a couple of 97s and a rig suitable for WB.

 

Interesting take on the game, and certainly good points. 

 

I began in the Cowboy discipline and occasionally our local runs a WB practice. I didn't question the rules, just got the equipment that was required. i don't think any of the requirements are unacceptable, but you have a good point, are they really necessary? 

 

Fast forward, after a few years of shooting the 1911 at a meet, it does seem like the equipment requirement does hold some from participating. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that noticed. Occasionally the club runs a "Wild Cowboy"  meet. It allows using your Cowboy equipment or your Wild Bunch equipment. It is fun. I'm not a purist so the modified rules to accommodate the two disciplines for one scenario work nicely. Basically we're allowed a 1911, or a 52. Two mags loaded with 5 rounds. Shotgun, any cowboy shotgun or a Model 12. Four in the mag. So the same 10-10-4. I rather enjoy it and I find the 1911 easier on the arthritic hands than a SA. I'm no speed demon, but it does shave a bit of time off, and the speed demons are quick. 

 

Not that I follow it, I did come up with a minimalistic kit to participate in both disciplines. You need your basic Cowboy kit, and if your rifle is not over 40 , add a over 40 and it can double as a spare for shooting Wild. Then add a 1911, and load for the power factor, which makes the 1911 pretty nice to shoot. You can shoot it out of the box with a slightly lighter main recoil spring. If you shoot SxS, add a 1897 or a Model 12. Model 12s are easier to buy, don't break as often, perhaps, but are a bit different to run with the internal hammer. 

 

But to get to the point, I bought a Springfield Armory basic 1911, a big handful of mags, blacked out the white dots on the sights and am having fun. If you have the skills to do the one discipline, the other should be doable as well. I'm not sure that the power factor or the over 40 rifle rules are entirely necessary, but I don't consider those rules to be a deal breaker. I will admit that they don't accommodate youth or some ladies all that well, but I suppose the movie Wild Bunches intended audience was more for the men. 

 

Anyways, not my sandbox, not my rules. If I want to play in their sandbox, I follow their rules. 

 

BB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

Capt. Bill, we don't disagree as much as you think.   I ran a Wild Bunch match at Cherokee for a year and allowed any SASS legal rifle.   Most local matches I've attended also allow any SASS legal rifle.  State and above enforce the caliber and power factor restrictions.  I was just trying to explain the thought process behind some of the restrictive rules.   I don't necessarily agree with all of them.   Most of the matches I've shot recently have had 7 rifle rounds and 21 to 28 pistol rounds.  Obviously, just shooting 7 rounds out of the rifle is a small part of the stage.  I shoot a Marlin 1894 in Wild Bunch because it was cheaper than a 73.  No need for me to upgrade.  Changing magazines, getting lead bullets to work in a 1911 and hitting all those far off pistol targets is much more time consuming than shooting 7 shots out of a rifle.  Even shooting 6 shotgun targets with a preloaded pump shotgun doesn't take very long.  Most of the emphasis has been put on shooting the 1911 with full loads.

I'm looking at it from a financial perspective, pretty much. We all know there's a big upfront cost to joining our game, just the way it is.  The ongoing cost of shooting isn't to great lately either, again just the way it is and we all do the best we can. 

 

If there were no caliber limitation, the cost for me to get all three of us into WB would be two additional 1911s so maybe $1,000.  I suspect your typical CAS shooter is in a similar situation, already has a rifle and probably has either a suitable shotgun, or a suitable 1911, or both.  They might need to add a rig and one gun.  Most will already have the reloading gear needed. 

 

When the caliber requirement gets added that means for many in SASS who are shooting .38, yet another gun is needed, so there's another $1,000 on the inexpensive side, or $2,000+ on the high side.  In my case that number is times three people, cause no way Shootin Sharyn is OKing WB guns if she isn't playing and we're not leaving Iron Cowboy out.  Then of course I'll need a new reloading toolhead, dies, brass.   It just seems a bit much to me.  Is it keeping a bunch of people out?  Who knows, I don't.  Could be.

 

18 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Interesting take on the game, and certainly good points. 

 

I began in the Cowboy discipline and occasionally our local runs a WB practice. I didn't question the rules, just got the equipment that was required. i don't think any of the requirements are unacceptable, but you have a good point, are they really necessary? 

 

Fast forward, after a few years of shooting the 1911 at a meet, it does seem like the equipment requirement does hold some from participating. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that noticed. Occasionally the club runs a "Wild Cowboy"  meet. It allows using your Cowboy equipment or your Wild Bunch equipment. It is fun. I'm not a purist so the modified rules to accommodate the two disciplines for one scenario work nicely. Basically we're allowed a 1911, or a 52. Two mags loaded with 5 rounds. Shotgun, any cowboy shotgun or a Model 12. Four in the mag. So the same 10-10-4. I rather enjoy it and I find the 1911 easier on the arthritic hands than a SA. I'm no speed demon, but it does shave a bit of time off, and the speed demons are quick. 

 

Not that I follow it, I did come up with a minimalistic kit to participate in both disciplines. You need your basic Cowboy kit, and if your rifle is not over 40 , add a over 40 and it can double as a spare for shooting Wild. Then add a 1911, and load for the power factor, which makes the 1911 pretty nice to shoot. You can shoot it out of the box with a slightly lighter main recoil spring. If you shoot SxS, add a 1897 or a Model 12. Model 12s are easier to buy, don't break as often, perhaps, but are a bit different to run with the internal hammer. 

 

But to get to the point, I bought a Springfield Armory basic 1911, a big handful of mags, blacked out the white dots on the sights and am having fun. If you have the skills to do the one discipline, the other should be doable as well. I'm not sure that the power factor or the over 40 rifle rules are entirely necessary, but I don't consider those rules to be a deal breaker. I will admit that they don't accommodate youth or some ladies all that well, but I suppose the movie Wild Bunches intended audience was more for the men. 

 

Anyways, not my sandbox, not my rules. If I want to play in their sandbox, I follow their rules. 

 

BB

I'm in agreement.  Their sandbox, their rules.  Hopefully nobody gets their feelings hurt if I point out a rule that might be keeping folks out of the sandbox without generating a real benefit.  Just my opinion and probably worth what you paid for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Capt Bill, the Belton 5th Saturday Wild Bunch matches allow any SASS legal rifle.  Other firearm rules are flexible as well.

 

The forty caliber rifle requirement has been debated a good bit.  The match director of the prior Greenville WB match felt as you do.

 

I bought a .44-40 rifle in part to have a compliant Wild Bunch rifle.  I used to load .38 Special rifle ammo to meet WB power factor.  I can’t tell much difference in recoil between those loads and a 200 grain .44-40 at 800-ish FPS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would such a proposed rule change apply only to allowing .38/.357 to be added, or could I try to push 110 grain cast bullets @ 1400 fps in my .25-20's to make 154 PF? :ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

Would such a proposed rule change apply only to allowing .38/.357 to be added, or could I try to push 110 grain cast bullets @ 1400 fps in my .25-20's to make 154 PF? :ph34r:

Sure.  I bet allowing 25-20 caliber rifles will attract a bunch of cowboys who are currently using that caliber.  It's much more popular than 38 special.

 

I've yet to hear a reason for the rifle caliber requirement.  I don't think I'm going to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Sure.  I bet allowing 25-20 caliber rifles will attract a bunch of cowboys who are currently using that caliber.  It's much more popular than 38 special.

 

I've yet to hear a reason for the rifle caliber requirement.  I don't think I'm going to.

 

Again...why not ask that question on the WBAS FORUM ?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Sure.  I bet allowing 25-20 caliber rifles will attract a bunch of cowboys who are currently using that caliber.  It's much more popular than 38 special.

 

I've yet to hear a reason for the rifle caliber requirement.  I don't think I'm going to.

Ya, all six of us! :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.