Women are slower shooters?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I recently unearthed my copy of Doc Shapiro's "Breaking The Shot" and was reviewing it.  In the final chapter, "Parting Shots", Lass Cahl SASS #21259 was giving her thoughts and stated: "...As in most sports men dominate the sport. But why is that in Cowboy Action Shooting? There are no real physical tasks that should give them the advantage over us. Through my observation and training I have found that most men approach a stage aggressively and most women approach the stage cautiously..."  She goes on to say that she as she consciously overcame that hurdle, her times improved.

 

I have occasionally wondered why the fastest women aren't as fast as the fastest men.  In many or most sports, strength plays a significant role.  But in this sport, we've had some very young kids that are at the top of the game.  So it certainly isn't brute strength, nor size.  While there are some amazingly fast female shooters, they just aren't at the top of the heap the vast majority of the time.  I'm sure some of the top women must practice and train as hard as the top men.  There must be a physiological reason other than strength.  Are females just not able to move their muscles as fast as males?  Their fast-twitch muscles just don't twitch as fast?

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Last weekend, we shot the 20 something-th annual Great Northfield Raid.  A 15 year old girl, Bright'N, won two of the stages.  Midwest Hale just took Top Overall shooter, at the North Carolina State Championships.  And everyone in Wild Bunch got girled in 2022 by Holy Terror, who was the Top Overall shooter.

 

Cheers,

FJT

 

 

[Texas Jack Black]

 Motor responses  are faster in males. plain and simple.  Biology 101

 

 Best wishes

[Captain Bill Burt]

I read an interesting article on reaction times recently.  60 men and 60 women between 18 and 20 were tested.  The results were very statistically significant and indicated a few interesting things.  

 

Both women and men reacted more quickly to auditory stimuli than to visual stimuli.

 

Men had faster reaction times than women for both types of stimuli.  

 

Physically fit people of both sexes reacted faster than people who were less physically fit.

 

The more physically fit the men and women were the smaller the difference in their reaction times, but even at the elite level men still had significantly faster reaction times. 

I don't recall the exact language, but I believe the difference was attributed to message speed and processing, not the speed at which muscles contracted which was pretty much the same for both males and females.

 

The conclusion I reached was that at the elite levels men had the edge, but not enough of an edge for non-elite men to compete successfully against elite women.

[Equanimous Phil]

That sounds interesting!

I wonder if this applies for all movements in general, as the only "reaction" is the first movement after the beep. Almost everything after are planned actions and movements (if the stage runs smoothly).

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

When speed and physicality is involved, given all things equal, usually men are better. As far as marksmanship itself, women definitely hold their own.

 

https://www.nrawomen.com/content/are-women-naturally-better-shooters-than-men/

 

GG ~ 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

It appears to be a complex and interesting topic.  Some studies suggest that "decision time" is faster in adult females, while "movement time" is faster in adult males, largely thought to be a product of muscle size, body size, and some other physical factors.  For some tasks, these differences cancel out and thus male and female "response time" -- which includes both components -- is similar in both sexes.  Other studies suggest that methods used to test response time by measuring application of force to a sensor after the stimulus or triggering signal is given are biased toward stronger individuals, or merely those with larger muscle groups.  Also, some studies have shown that the response time difference observed in adults is not shown to exist in children, which suggests that the difference develops along with development of secondary sex characteristics -- and is a product of the effects of sex hormones on the brain and body.  All very interesting stuff.  At any rate, the response time differences between top male and female athletes have been measured to be on the order of milliseconds, so it is not clear why any truly noticeable differences would exist in our sport based on gender alone.  Response times of active, fit people are always faster than those of sedentary, less fit people, regardless of gender, as are times of people who practice a lot, and especially those who specifically practice "fast muscle" movements.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Men populate this sport about 8:1 over women shooters.  (just my estimate based on experience)  You are pulling your top male shooters from a much larger pool.  This will sway your results.  If the male vs female ratio was closer to 1:1, you would see a lot more Holy Terrors and Midwest Hales. 

[Nickel City Dude]

Many years ago I read an article about men and women learning to type.  They said that it is harder for women to learn how to type than for men.  That is not to say that they can’t learn or that they can’t be very good and fast typists, it just means that it is harder to achieve this preseason for women than men.  They went on to say that the reason is because each side of the brain handles different things.  One side handles mussel movement and the other side does visual input.  The difference according to this article is that the connection between the two sides is larger in men than it is in women and thus the signals between the two side travel faster and with more information in men than in women.  I don’t know if this is true because I am not a doctor but that is want the article said and I thought that was interesting so I never forgot it.

[Dream Chaser, SASS #79316]

I have long had the view, if one stereotypes women (because there are always exceptions) you will find women grew up being less “competitive”.  By this I mean most young girls who were not surrounded by a lot of young boys did not look at a tree and decide to race their buddies to the top.  They did not race across a yard to see who could get there fastest.  I have a female friend who is more competitive than any other person, male or female, than I have ever met but most of us are just more conservative.  Men tend to take the challenge.  Men are more likely to make the jump and change jobs and even types of careers often where women are more likely to stick with their job/ career unless moves made by the spouse require it.

I have definitely found that my female conservatism has really held me back.  I shot my guns at perhaps  65 percent of my speed at Nationals rather than the ninety percent I should have shot at.  Lack of confidence to do what I really can do.  My goal now is to go for it at annual and club matches and let the chips fall where they are.  Another thing, there are so many men and winning is tough no matter what your category.  One little slip up and you go down a notch so many hone their skills where others are happy to shoot a good match considering how much they have put into it.  My guess and that is all it is, is that at perhaps half the women, are shooting only because their husband does.  Of those perhaps 1/3 to a half are just along for the ride and hardly practice.  They enjoy the shooting and even more enjoy shooting with their spouse.  
For those who say I am crazy about my take on the subject you are likely correct, but it is my belief.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

Left brain vs. right brain.

[Cypress Sun]

Doc hasn't shot with Midwest Hale.

[Doc Shapiro]

3 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

Doc hasn't shot with Midwest Hale.

Keep in mind I didn't write the passage in question.  Lass Cahl did.

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

2 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Keep in mind I didn't write the passage in question.  Lass Cahl did.

 

 

 

Doc, you're a great shooter in your own right. I've read your book, a ton of good information on improving and maintaining one's game. My post wasn't meant as a slight toward you or the book, not at all. It was meant as a shout out/compliment to Hale...who's been kicking everyone's butt (male or female) lately.

 

Hope all is well (as it can be) with you.

 

Sun

[Doc Shapiro]

26 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Doc, you're a great shooter in your own right. I've read your book, a ton of good information on improving and maintaining one's game. My post wasn't meant as a slight toward you or the book, not at all. It was meant as a shout out/compliment to Hale...who's been kicking everyone's butt (male or female) lately.

 

Hope all is well (as it can be) with you.

 

Sun

 

No worries.  Just highlights the shortcomings of communication like this.  It's fraught with misunderstandings as there's no vocal inflection or body language. 

 

Hope you're well.

[Itchy Trigger]

2 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

  One side handles mussel movement and the other side does visual input.  The difference according to this article is that the connection between the two sides is larger in men than it is in women and thus the signals between the two side travel faster and with more information in men than in women.

 

Most of what you wrote is true, but that part didn’t make sense. The signals should not travel faster and Men have fewer connections between the left and right side of their brains. This is one reason they typically are less emotional.
 

If anything, it probably means they have LESS information which “might” speed up any decision process that requires both sides, but I have never read that.

 

1 hour ago, Dream Chaser, SASS #79316 said:

… will find women grew up being less “competitive”.  
…

My guess and that is all it is, is that at perhaps half the women, are shooting only because their husband does.

I don’t believe that physiological differences are a significant differential in our sport. It is more the theory of large numbers with a greater ratio of naturally competitive males vs females competitors. This is amplified at monthly matches where one has to train/compete at their absolute best (as opposed to not making a mistake) with more/stronger competition in their male category and only a few in the equivalent female category.

 

That said, I am beaten at most matches by women older than me.

[Hendo]

13 hours ago, Frederick Jackson Turner said:

Last weekend, we shot the 20 something-th annual Great Northfield Raid.  A 15 year old girl, Bright'N, won two of the stages.  Midwest Hale just took Top Overall shooter, at the North Carolina State Championships.  And everyone in Wild Bunch got girled in 2022 by Holy Terror, who was the Top Overall shooter.

 

Cheers,

FJT

 

 

You forgot to mention Clancy, who about put you to shame last weekend, my friend. She is truly awesome.

[Waimea]

Midwest Hale is a highly focused and motivated female shooter.

99% of al men aren't as....

Wait was that a squirrel.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

23 hours ago, Itchy Trigger said:

 

 

That said, I am beaten at most matches by women older than me.

 

   What a way to go...Sign me up!

[Matthew Duncan]

Same reason why it takes a woman longer to get dressed then a man.  She is slower because she has more curves to navigate.  

[Nickel City Dude]

21 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Same reason why it takes a woman longer to get dressed then a man.  She is slower because she has move curves to navigate.  

Viva La Differance!

[Texas Jack Black]

 I am starting to detect a bit of WOKENESS setting in.

[July Smith]

Just out of curiosity how would female shooters feel about doing away with gender based categories?  In a lot of threads it frequently gets mentioned how SASS already has way to many categories, would seem like combining the genders would be a simple way to half the categories.   Most female shooters I have talked to (both fast and average) are sometimes embarrassed to get a buckle or award in a category that only had 2 or 3 shooters.  

[Tennessee williams]

Well. I guess I'll comment on this too. Here is your answer:

 

  Women have more going on in their brains. They have to analyze and overcome these things throughout the stage(albeit quickly).

  The only thing men have to get out of their head is boobies. Shorter route to nothing in our head. Sometimes it's the simple answer!

  

I may add this too. Women are shooting their rifle right next to those same boobies we guys are trying not to think about. My thought is, we fellas would take a heck a lot longer with a rifle string if we "shouldered" our rifle on our inner thigh.

[Mister Badly]

2 hours ago, July Smith said:

Just out of curiosity how would female shooters feel about doing away with gender based categories?  In a lot of threads it frequently gets mentioned how SASS already has way to many categories, would seem like combining the genders would be a simple way to half the categories.   Most female shooters I have talked to (both fast and average) are sometimes embarrassed to get a buckle or award in a category that only had 2 or 3 shooters.  

Not likely. They are having ladies only shoots now.

[Black Hills Barb]

Many years ago I was told that, in his experience as an RO, women got far less procedurals than men.  Whether it's true or not, I don't know.  But, I'm fairly certain that I have gotten far less than my husband.  

[Dream Chaser, SASS #79316]

J.S., I would prefer not to eliminate the women’s designation.  As an “older woman” I have the right to enter “down” in an age category and believe me those youngsters can kick my butt any time.  I would prefer entering down so I do not feel bad placing high in my category to being thrown in with the men.

[Black Hills Barb]

6 hours ago, July Smith said:

Just out of curiosity how would female shooters feel about doing away with gender based categories?  In a lot of threads it frequently gets mentioned how SASS already has way to many categories, would seem like combining the genders would be a simple way to half the categories.   Most female shooters I have talked to (both fast and average) are sometimes embarrassed to get a buckle or award in a category that only had 2 or 3 shooters.  

As a Classic Cowboy(girl) I will always opt to shoot with the men if the match chooses to not recognize underpopulated categories.  My reasoning is that I would rather stay within the requirements of my category by shooting with the cowboys rather than anything else. 
As a match director, I would vote to not do away with any gender based categories.  I feel that it would do much more harm than good.

[Scarlett]

I would shoot this game whether there were gender categories or not. In fact, I’m tired of “choose your category wisely” remarks and might start shooting in open FCGF category.  
 

The “Ladies Only” matches “they are having” isn’t about leaving men out but a way to be the majority… get a chance to: plan/host/run the match; write the stages; run the timer AND, welcome/encourage new ladies to the game. Frankly, some ladies (and even some men) are intimidated by the occasional “overbearing cowboy.”  

 

In a conversation with @Sarge from Michigan about their ladies only match coming June 2023 he said the ladies that he figured would be regulars at their monthly match don’t come because they’re intimidated by the men.  Are the men at that club intimidating? I doubt it knowing Sarge however, the ladies are NOT attending because of intimidation. 
 

ALL of us could be kinder, give warmer welcomes to ALL visitors - potential shooters, club members, etc.  
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

[Mister Badly]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I would shoot this game whether there were gender categories or not. In fact, I’m tired of “choose your category wisely” remarks and might start shooting in open FCGF category.  
 

The “Ladies Only” matches “they are having” isn’t about leaving men out but a way to be the majority… get a chance to: plan/host/run the match; write the stages; run the timer AND, welcome/encourage new ladies to the game. Frankly, some ladies (and even some men) are intimidated by the occasional “overbearing cowboy.”  

 

In a conversation with @Sarge from Michigan about their ladies only match coming June 2023 he said the ladies that he figured would be regulars at their monthly match don’t come because they’re intimidated by the men.  Are the men at that club intimidating? I doubt it knowing Sarge however, the ladies are NOT attending because of intimidation. 
 

ALL of us could be kinder, give warmer welcomes to ALL visitors - potential shooters, club members, etc.  
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

I get it. Just pointing out the current trend and the fact combining into one category is unlikely. And "they" meant clubs other than mine. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

23 hours ago, July Smith said:

Just out of curiosity how would female shooters feel about doing away with gender based categories?  In a lot of threads it frequently gets mentioned how SASS already has way to many categories, would seem like combining the genders would be a simple way to half the categories.   Most female shooters I have talked to (both fast and average) are sometimes embarrassed to get a buckle or award in a category that only had 2 or 3 shooters.  

I think it would be a horrible idea. When I started we sold a lot of extra Banquet  tickets at our State Match for wives, now we have a lot more wives actually shooting plus ladies that come on their own to shoot. We don’t sell nearly as many Extra Banquet tickets and our match numbers are up. I, for one, wouldn’t want to do anything to reverse this trend. 
 

Randy

[Nota John, SASS #51089L]

Don't say women are slower than men. One match I was bested by a lady shooter, overall .9 sec. faster for the match. Yours. Nota

[Eyesa Horg]

I get beat by the ladies regularly! 

[Uncle Ethan # 94321]

11 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I get beat by the ladies regularly! 

Me too.

[Eyesa Horg]

And no, I don't think the categories should be combined. Bad enough we now have men playing women's sports and female Boy Scouts. Times have certainly changed, but let's not do it to CAS too.

No offense intended