Jump to content

Clean shooter percentage?


Bolo Bob
 Share

Recommended Posts

What should the recommendations be for the number(%) of clean shooters in a "normal" match? And should that percentage change if you are preparing shooters for state or national matches?

 

I found myself unprepared for national stages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your first time at big matches this is to be expected. You are being exposed to a lot of new scenarios, stage designs, ect.

 

Too many clubs get into a rut with scenarios, target distances, and sizes. It gives shooters a false sense of confidence.

 

The only thing that prepares you for big matches is traveling to matches outside your local area and shooting stages outside your comfort zone.

 

  • Like 14
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Bolo Bob said:

What should the recommendations be for the number(%) of clean shooters in a "normal" match? And should that percentage change if you are preparing shooters for state or national matches?

 

I found myself unprepared for national stages.

 You need to mix it up when you practice. I have saved all my booklets from over 30 yrs in SASS .I read them and shoot the scenarios when I practice. I treat each match as a mental game as well as a gunfight.

 

Best wishes

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your local club matches should help you prepare for national events.  I found both EOT and Land Run easy to shoot.  When I am a local match director I use scenarios from major matches that have not been shot locally.  I have close targets and distant plate racks, combination rifle/pistol sweeps and frequently add shotgun pop-up targets.  My club had two national category champions this year and several who placed in the top ten in their categories at both Land Run and EOT.  Our local matches were an important part of their successes.

 

Regarding clean match percentages shot matches with single digits to one third clean (the recent Bordertown).  This year I lost more clean matches due to bad primers than any other reason.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Bolo Bob said:

What should the recommendations be for the number(%) of clean shooters in a "normal" match? And should that percentage change if you are preparing shooters for state or national matches?

 

I found myself unprepared for national stages.

 

Thinking back on the scores over past 10 years, between 1 and 2 clean matches per posse seem about right.  A few people strive to shoot a clean match despite total times.   I've gotten about one per year. Not this year, last match I hit every target I shot at but unfortunately,  two were the wrong target!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Bolo Bob said:

What should the recommendations be for the number(%) of clean shooters in a "normal" match? And should that percentage change if you are preparing shooters for state or national matches?

 

I found myself unprepared for national stages.

10%

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matthew is probably a little low but 10 to 20 per cent is good.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been told and think it is pretty good advice, At monthly matches you should go as fast as you feel comfortable because you will not get fast otherwise. If you don't miss some targets you should be going faster. Then for the more important matches (or maybe the last preparatory monthly match before the big match) slow down just a little bit so you don't make mistakes. Now if I could just learn that last piece of advice better. ;-)

 

There are lots of people that mostly shoot clean matches, but they are not near the top of the scoreboards because they care more about shooting clean than fast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Itchy Trigger said:

There are lots of people that mostly shoot clean matches, but they are not near the top of the scoreboards because they care more about shooting clean than fast.

 

Overheard one guy say on last stage, "I'm going to shoot as fast as I can. ". I think he missed 8. :lol:

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the stages at Bordertown kept throwing me off. Every time my gun barrels hit the targets, it ruined my concentration!

  • Like 1
  • Haha 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Cholla said:

I know the stages at Bordertown kept throwing me off. Every time my gun barrels hit the targets, it ruined my concentration!

Missing close targets really throws me off my rythym. I'm getting used to it though. :D

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What does the percentage of clean shooters have to do with anything??  The idea in this GAME is to HAVE FUN.  The more folks that have fun the better.   Let us remember we play a GAME.  If you're worried about the percentage of clean shooters, your inna wrong GAME!!

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Cholla said:

I know the stages at Bordertown kept throwing me off. Every time my gun barrels hit the targets, it ruined my concentration!

 

I asked at a recent "big and close" event, if I could tap the targets with the end of my buntline colt if it counted as a hit, I was told NO!

And yes, there was probably over 50% clean shooters there.

Edited by Itchy Trigger
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always felt that if there was a low percentage of clean shooters( less than 15 to 20 percent,the stages for that match might have been a little too "advanced" for that group.On the other hand, if the percentage is too high, then the stages could have been a little more challenging. 

We certainly don't want to discourage new shooters by them being frustrated with difficult stages, but we don't want to bore more experienced shooters with stages that don't  challenge them at all.

I,personally like to be challenged a bit,but I hate "P" traps.

Of course,YMMV

Choctaw Jack

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bolo Bob Here is my experience over the last 5 or so years. For the record at big matches I always shoot Frontiersman.

 

My first state match was Arkansas state / Shooting in the shade. Struggled with scenarios I had never seen before. 

 

My second State level match was a double header. The Kansas State BP and the Kansas State SASS match at the same club on the same weekend. Scenarios were mostly familiar and I didn't have too many issues with the scenarios.

 

For the BP match I earned a MDQ on the third round of stage one.  While clearing a cap jam the had an AD and shot a hole in the prop. Managed to finish the State SASS with no major issues.

 

Following weekend shot the Tennessee State SASS match at Wartrace. Shooting C&B in the rain was unbelievably challenging. Finished the match but had a lot of misses due to wet powder. Also a couple Ps because I was shooting scenarios I had never seen before. 

 

To say that my shooting sucked my first couple of years of big matches would be an understatement. However I had a lot of fun and got to meet and shoot with some excellent people.

 

Following year I returned to Wartrace for the Tn State SASS match and did better. No Ps but overall I knew I could do better.

 

This year I shot the Mississippi State SASS match and the Tn State Sass match on consecutive weekends. Between the two matches plus side matches I fired a total of 480 round without a miss.

I placed 3rd out of 7 at the MS state match. Looking at my performance I should have placed 2nd but due to a couple bobbles with my SG I placed 3rd.

I placed 3rd out of 4 shooters at TN State. Looking at my performance I should have placed 1st but again I beat myself with my shotgun. 

 

I can unequivocally state that the stages I shot over the last 3 years at Wartrace have made me a much better shooter. They are unlike anything I shoot locally and require me to THINK about how to approach a stage. Many of the stages were shooters choice in gun order with a lot of the shotgun having to be engaged in more than one location. There was seldom 1 best way to shoot any stage. Most scenarios had enough options that both right and left handed shooters as well as gunfighters and duelists were all able to compete on a pretty level playing field. The challenge to each shooter was shooting the stage so that it played to your strengths. 

 

Over the last 5 years I shot a lot of target sequences I had never seen before. I can say that if some of those sequences were introduced to the monthly matches I frequent there would have been a lot of complaining about P traps when the stage was read. However after people figured out how to engage the sequence they aren't really P traps at all. They are just different.

 

Bottom line the stages at State and above matches are and definitely should be challenging. Anything less is a disservice to those that put out the effort to attend these matches.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was match director at Eldorado - I strove for a 25-30% clean match number.

 

By utilizing a big, close target philosophy AND well written instruction that gave CLEAR target engagement direction.

AND by writing stages that were engaged in a thought out order that avoided back and forth and fussy actions.

 

BUT the match director CANNOT control what the shooters decide to do - some will see "close" targets and run over their heads.

Some will see "simple" sequences and not bother to study or imprint them and lose track.

And yet others will simply not listen and earn their "P's" the old fashioned way.

 

But it is never the match directors responsibility is to "prepare" their shooters for other matches - that is on the shooter.

 

The match directors SOLE responsibility is to provide safe, well written stages with well placed targets that entertain and satisfy his or her shooters.  

 

If the shooter feels they need more to be ready - then they can seek out other venues for training or impose certain challenges upon themself within the matches presented to them.

 

A 24 inch target means nothing if YOU are striving for 3 inch groups from yourself (or require that you place that 3 inch group on the lower left corner of every plate).

Require yourself to perform a 2 round rifle reload every stage (let the TO know ahead of time)

Don't accept comstock shotgun sequences - if you miss; leave it standing.

Don't go L- R on any order shotgun - always look for the most challenging order and utilize that.

 

There are plenty of ways to increase your challenge and readiness for unknowns - but the only person responsible for that is you.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've set matches that we thought would be 50% clean and had fewer clean shooters than using smaller targets at distance.  Shooters run their guns faster on the close targets, make more mistakes, acquire more penalties and safety calls.  Some shooters shouldn't be trying to run their guns at speed or transition quickly. I feel some shooters no longer shoot because they are concerned about their abilities to try to keep up with todays drag race style of shooting. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

What does the percentage of clean shooters have to do with anything??  The idea in this GAME is to HAVE FUN.  The more folks that have fun the better.   Let us remember we play a GAME.  If you're worried about the percentage of clean shooters, your inna wrong GAME!!

The percentage of clean shooters is a reflection of the match’s difficulty. I shot a state match a while back where almost a third of my posse picked up a P on one stage. Why? Because the shooting sequence was almost impossible to remember, a ‘p’ trap.  About 5% shot that match clean. Small, far targets, and p trap sequences will do that. Bottom line, it wasn’t fun to shoot, so after the first day I stopped shooting and did posse chores, which I found much more enjoyable than wasting my ammo on that match.

 

As a former MD, 20% clean is a good benchmark IMO.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you have a place to practice where you can set up the stage, that is wonderful

Then practice with close, larger targets.  Then practice at different distances so you get a feel for how you have to shoot slightly differently.

Also practice having the targets spread out more.  Those factors significantly change the match and how it is shot.

 

Most shoots have a little larger targets set somewhat close now days.  But some do add a few more challenging shots.

 

So first, learn to relax for all matches.  Breath deeply to prepare and smile as you think through the stage and how you will do each step. 

 

Have as much fun as you can.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The percentage of clean shooters is a reflection of the match’s difficulty. I shot a state match a while back where almost a third of my posse picked up a P on one stage. Why? Because the shooting sequence was almost impossible to remember, a ‘p’ trap.  About 5% shot that match clean. Small, far targets, and p trap sequences will do that. Bottom line, it wasn’t fun to shoot, so after the first day I stopped shooting and did posse chores, which I found much more enjoyable than wasting my ammo on that match.

 

As a former MD, 20% clean is a good benchmark IMO.

20 + years ago there were very few clean shooters at large matches and monthlies, targets were smaller and more distant. Yet, SASS had more members and shoots were sold out. Split pistols were the norm and sequences varied between rifle and pistols. Strange that we had many more shooters before everything became simplistic and easy to clean. I enjoy shooting fast as much as the next guy, probably ran more shoots than most and I've returned many clean match pins. Are we catering to the few that want to shoot clean and fast or is there a larger faction that would enjoy a match with more difficulty? And, if the difficulty factor increased would it attract new shooters? 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been writing stages and running matches for the last 5-6 years and carried the title of Junior Assistant Match Director In Training (JAMDIT) for about 10 years prior to that. :P  I like to see the number of clean shooters be in the 10-20% range.

 

That being said, I like to mix it up at the monthly matches a bit, pull stuff from "Away" matches and stir those in the pot, and vary target distances and sizes.  I do tend to keep the pistol targets larger but distances vary.  What I find throws people off more however is target arrangement.  Straight forward sequences, with unique target arrangements, can leave folks scratching their heads sometimes, but once they have shot it (or seen a few other folks shoot it) you can see the light bulb turn on.

 

Sometimes stages I write that I think should be a cake walk for folks just leave them in the dust and I think that is due to the fact that I shoot gunfighter and think of everything is a 10 shot string.  I have gotten better at reviewing my stages for where the pistol break happens for those two handed shooters, but even then it's not always enough.  Folks process thing differently, it's just the way it is.

 

I have been told many times that I come up with some unique stages and mostly it's just something I saw at another match in another state and I just tweaked it a bit.  I know that not everybody has time or resources to travel to a lot of big matches, but travel is the only way to see what else is happening out there.  It doesn't have to be an Annual, State, or Above match, but traveling to matches outside of your "local zone" will be a learning experience.  I highly recommend it.

 

Personally, I like to be surprised when I go to a big match and see something I haven't seen before, but I also appreciate stages that are straight forward and don't require much explanation.  Land Run this year was a great example of having straight forward stages with clear instructions, and I actually commented that it almost seemed too simple.  Didn't help me shoot fast :lol:, or clean... :rolleyes:, but is was a good model for stage writing.  I will definitely take some of that and add it into my stage writing.

 

Bottom line, travel as much as you can, see as much as you can see, and be happy when you get surprised by something unexpected.  Otherwise this game will get boring.

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Assassin said:

20 + years ago there were very few clean shooters at large matches and monthlies, targets were smaller and more distant. Yet, SASS had more members and shoots were sold out. Split pistols were the norm and sequences varied between rifle and pistols. Strange that we had many more shooters before everything became simplistic and easy to clean. I enjoy shooting fast as much as the next guy, probably ran more shoots than most and I've returned many clean match pins. Are we catering to the few that want to shoot clean and fast or is there a larger faction that would enjoy a match with more difficulty? And, if the difficulty factor increased would it attract new shooters? 

I wish I knew the answer to that.  I hate to say it, but a lot of those shooters are gone because they're gone, literally.  Some may also be gone because they don't like the 'new' SASS.

 

I think the percentage that 'should' be clean is certainly debatable, but I don't agree with the sentiment that it doesn't matter at all.  Yesterday my wife had a miss on the final stage of the day.  Triangular pistol target at about 10-12 yards.  Unfortunate, but I thought it was a good match because the sizes and distances were mixed, not all big and close, and not all small and far. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Assassin said:

20 + years ago there were very few clean shooters at large matches and monthlies, targets were smaller and more distant. Yet, SASS had more members and shoots were sold out. Split pistols were the norm and sequences varied between rifle and pistols. Strange that we had many more shooters before everything became simplistic and easy to clean. I enjoy shooting fast as much as the next guy, probably ran more shoots than most and I've returned many clean match pins. Are we catering to the few that want to shoot clean and fast or is there a larger faction that would enjoy a match with more difficulty? And, if the difficulty factor increased would it attract new shooters? 

I have heard the above for the last 20 something years - The shoots that "Sold Out" 20 years ago were the SAME shoots that sell out today.

Bordertown is the premier example - and why does it sell out?  TARGET SIZE AND PLACEMENT.

 

The game evolved to emulate the BIG and CLOSE model - because those shoots succeeded.

This did not happen overnight - the customers voted with their feet and wallets.

The distant, small, complicated shoots withered and went away.

 

Secondly; we did not market SASS correctly and cultural norms took cowboy away as an interest - we did not replace those shooters that aged out.

So shooters that were 40 and 50 in the 1990's are now 70 and 80 plus (or deceased).

And few 80 year olds have interest in climbing out of bath tubs, balancing on bed springs or 40 yard dashes.

 

Thirdly - as matches GREW - the need arose for some controls over stage length - you cannot get 6, 7, 800 shooters thru a match with 60+ second stages.

Most big shoots are built around 30 second average shooter times with two minutes Beep to Beep.

I just checked the scores for Land Run and the MEAN shooter was roughly a 350 second shooter thru 12 stages - almost perfect 30.

But lets make the MEAN 60 seconds (a little more complex, a little more aiming) and suddenly your posses take an additional 40 minutes per day to get thru 4 stages.   

And 120 minutes extra for match officials who are there all day. (20 person posses + 30 seconds each - equals 10 minutes plus per stage x 3 waves)  

 

Lastly NO ONE enjoys missing.

The groups that clamored then and clamor today for small and distant are usually (not always) ONE dimensional shooters that feel if ONLY the targets were further out and smaller - they could win.

And most of those shooters were never competitive - then or now.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a very good friend who is working VERY hard to prepare himself for a regional/national/world match. He’s shooting clean! Stage times are improving! Etc. BUT, he’s shooting the same local matches which are run by folks who don’t travel a lot or change up scenarios very much. When I saw him last it was after EOT. He was saying how he was almost ready for EOT/Land Run! I asked, “have you ever shot where you had to stage your pistols?” No! Who would do that? “Have you ever vertically staged or restaged  your rifle or shotgun?” No! Why would we do that? “Do you feel comfortable shooting L to R AND R to L?” Bottom line: He was getting “false readings” on his own performance and improvement that was NOT helping him to get where he wanted to be.  He was only practicing what gave him results he wanted - and when he got the gratification, he went back for more of the same.  A lot of big match stages are posted on the match website or social media. There are a lot of videos on YouTube. My local club shot 3 Land Run stages while I was AT Land Run! It was a fun way to share the big match energy with those unable to be there. 
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I have heard the above for the last 20 something years - The shoots that "Sold Out" 20 years ago were the SAME shoots that sell out today.

Bordertown is the premier example - and why does it sell out?  TARGET SIZE AND PLACEMENT.

 

The game evolved to emulate the BIG and CLOSE model - because those shoots succeeded.

This did not happen overnight - the customers voted with their feet and wallets.

The distant, small, complicated shoots withered and went away.

 

Secondly; we did not market SASS correctly and cultural norms took cowboy away as an interest - we did not replace those shooters that aged out.

So shooters that were 40 and 50 in the 1990's are now 70 and 80 plus (or deceased).

And few 80 year olds have interest in climbing out of bath tubs, balancing on bed springs or 40 yard dashes.

 

Thirdly - as matches GREW - the need arose for some controls over stage length - you cannot get 6, 7, 800 shooters thru a match with 60+ second stages.

Most big shoots are built around 30 second average shooter times with two minutes Beep to Beep.

I just checked the scores for Land Run and the MEAN shooter was roughly a 350 second shooter thru 12 stages - almost perfect 30.

But lets make the MEAN 60 seconds (a little more complex, a little more aiming) and suddenly your posses take an additional 40 minutes per day to get thru 4 stages.   

And 120 minutes extra for match officials who are there all day. (20 person posses + 30 seconds each - equals 10 minutes plus per stage x 3 waves)  

 

Lastly NO ONE enjoys missing.

The groups that clamored then and clamor today for small and distant are usually (not always) ONE dimensional shooters that feel if ONLY the targets were further out and smaller - they could win.

And most of those shooters were never competitive - then or now.

 

 

 

 

 

Have to disagree. There are only a hand full of shoots that sellout today, maybe half a dozen. Use to have a large number of shoots that sold out and not just in large population centers. I don't like convoluted stages.. 

 

At this point in my CAS career I am at a crossroads. My guns are worn out and I'm bored with the same old 10-10-4 crap. Although, I can still be competitive when my old crappy guns hold up for 12 stages.

Do I want to spend $2k for a new rifle, no. Burn out has kicked in after 26years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m sure I’m in the minority, but I feel like a clean match should be a pretty big deal. 10-15% clean out of the total shooters is about right for me. I also like variety in stages. Close, fast, and furious stages can be fun but they should be balanced with stages that require a different approach than just seeing how fast you can work your hammer/lever. Again, I’m sure I’m in the minority.

 

Speaking of clean matches, I’ve seen some pretty cool clean match pins, but I think my favorite is the clean match rock I got at a Tres Rios Bandidos monthly match :) 

D618841E-CFF7-498F-AD1E-C3ACA663B5EA.jpeg

Edited by Cibola Al
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Have to disagree. There are only a hand full of shoots that sellout today, maybe half a dozen. Use to have a large number of shoots that sold out and not just in large population centers. I don't like convoluted stages.. 

 

At this point in my CAS career I am at a crossroads. My guns are worn out and I'm bored with the same old 10-10-4 crap. Although, I can still be competitive when my old crappy guns hold up for 12 stages.

Do I want to spend $2k for a new rifle, no. Burn out has kicked in after 26years.

I hear you! Come to the Dark Side! I’m sure you’ve shot all categories… shoot some Frontier Cartridge! I haven’t been shooting as long as you have however, I do get tired of the same old 10-10-4+.  Shooting GF made me a better shooter all around but made it FUN!! Shooting FCGF makes shooting a BLAST! 
 

Big hugs! 
 

Scarlett

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I hear you! Come to the Dark Side! I’m sure you’ve shot all categories… shoot some Frontier Cartridge! I haven’t been shooting as long as you have however, I do get tired of the same old 10-10-4+.  Shooting GF made me a better shooter all around but made it FUN!! Shooting FCGF makes shooting a BLAST! 
 

Big hugs! 
 

Scarlett

At Bordertown 15 shooters competed in FCGF.  It was a large category.  The availability of sulfur-free BP subs that can be shot with ordinary cast bullets has helped the popularity of the Darkside.  (Shooters World BP Sub that you sell is one of these subs.)

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Cibola Al said:

I’m sure I’m in the minority, but I feel like a clean match should be a pretty big deal. 10-15% clean out of the total shooters is about right for me. I also like variety in stages. Close, fast, and furious stages can be fun but they should be balanced with stages that require a different approach than just seeing how fast you can work your hammer/lever. Again, I’m sure I’m in the minority.

 

Speaking of clean matches, I’ve seen some pretty cool clean match pins, but I think my favorite is the clean match rock I got at a Tres Rios Bandidos monthly match :) 

 

 

Your not in the minority. I too like a balanced match. What I really don't like are targets less less than 6 feet from the firing line. This puts them about 4 feet from the muzzle.

I am skipping my state's BP match because all the targets are so close that you get splatter from them at the loading and unloading tables. Just don't see the point.

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.