Rule revisited - Long gun discarded, but not empty

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Once a shooter has discarded a long gun, wouldn't it be safer to have the shooter leave the gun until after done shooting (when they can take their time checking and clearing it) rather than having them rush clearing it on the clock?  Then, they if it was an empty hull it could be declared a no call, a live round on the carrier a MSV or if a live round in the chamber a SDQ.

 

Possum

[Cypress Sun]

 

The shooter always has the option of NOT correcting the violation.

[Tennessee williams]

   I dont know if youre advocating for a rule change or clarification on the rules.

   Just thinking it through... It's grounds for a reshoot if you call the shooter back to the rifle to open the lever and there is NOT a piece of brass or live round in the receiver. Personally as TO (what I try to do)if I was in position to see the brass didn't eject, I'll tell the shooter so they can open and eject it. If there's brass, I saved them 10 seconds. If there's no brass I'd expect them to request a reshoot. It's just me, but if I don't see it fail to eject or atleast have a strong suspicion of it, I won't call them back.

  Not sure if I even talked about what you were asking

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Possum.

 

If I understand what you are asking (seeking), I can agree.    BUT..... with many of our stages requiring down range movements,

I would not want to know AFTER the stage is over if there was a LIVE round still in that rifle.

And some folks have been known to overload their rifle.

 

..........Widder

 

[Eyesa Horg]

We point discarded long guns on an angle towards the side berm when there is down range movements or take it with us depending on the scenario. Still wouldn't be fond of a discarded gun still having a round in it.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

We point discarded long guns on an angle towards the side berm when there is down range movements or take it with us depending on the scenario. Still wouldn't be fond of a discarded gun still having a round in it.

With rare exceptions the discarded gun is pointing safely down range.  So is it safer to clear it on the click or after done shooting?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Possum.

 

If I understand what you are asking (seeking), I can agree.    BUT..... with many of our stages requiring down range movements,

I would not want to know AFTER the stage is over if there was a LIVE round still in that rifle.

And some folks have been known to overload their rifle.

 

..........Widder

 

We either take gun with us down range or point it off to the side so we never go in front of the gun…

[Tennessee williams]

I'm still not clear Possum. Are you wanting the rule changed to a no call for brass or hull being in the receiver of the long gun after the next gun is fired?

  For the live round being in the chamber, I would rather be stopped immediately. That could potentially keep me from receiving a match DQ. 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

6 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'm still not clear Possum. Are you wanting the rule changed to a no call for brass or hull being in the receiver of the long gun after the next gun is fired?

  For the live round being in the chamber, I would rather be stopped immediately. That could potentially keep me from receiving a match DQ. 

I’d say make it the shooter’s choice.

[Griff]

11 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Once a shooter has discarded a long gun, wouldn't it be safer to have the shooter leave the gun until after done shooting (when they can take their time checking and clearing it) rather than having them rush clearing it on the clock?  Then, they if it was an empty hull it could be declared a no call, a live round on the carrier a MSV or if a live round in the chamber a SDQ.

 

Possum

In the case of an empty long gun or an empty case in either the chamber or on the carrier, checking now or later is moot regarding which is safer.  For the only way the long gun is likely to cause injury is by falling off the table  and landing on someone's foot.  In the case of a loaded round, IMO it is decidedly NOT safer to clear the long gun later.  The prudent course is to error on the side of safety

[Rye Miles #13621]

On 11/1/2022 at 12:07 PM, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Once a shooter has discarded a long gun, wouldn't it be safer to have the shooter leave the gun until after done shooting (when they can take their time checking and clearing it) rather than having them rush clearing it on the clock?  Then, they if it was an empty hull it could be declared a no call, a live round on the carrier a MSV or if a live round in the chamber a SDQ.

 

Possum

I thought that was the rule! 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Current rules:

Quote

 

- A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty.

- A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation.

SHB p.27

 

Regarding an EMPTY remaining in a discarded long gun:

Quote

- Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.

SHB p.16

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IMO...some of y'all would benefit from a review of current rules regarding violations and penalties.

[Tennessee williams]

On 11/1/2022 at 3:17 PM, Tennessee williams said:

I'm still not clear Possum. Are you wanting the rule changed to a no call for brass or hull being in the receiver of the long gun after the next gun is fired?

  For the live round being in the chamber, I would rather be stopped immediately. That could potentially keep me from receiving a match DQ. 

Just to clarify above regarding avoiding a potential MDQ. I meant in the case I did something else to earn another SDQ after discarding the long gun with a live round in the chamber. 2 SDQ on same stage is a MDQ. That's where I was getting MDQ. I wasn't clear.

[Mister Badly]

2 SDQ in a MATCH is a MATCH DQ

[Marshal Jack Murphy SASS #32018]

14 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

- A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation.

 

The live round on the carrier would also be a miss but would it also earn the shooter a procedural if the other 9 rounds where shoot correctly?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

41 minutes ago, Marshal Jack Murphy SASS #32018 said:

 

The live round on the carrier would also be a miss but would it also earn the shooter a procedural if the other 9 rounds where shoot correctly?

No

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

40 minutes ago, Marshal Jack Murphy SASS #32018 said:

 

The live round on the carrier would also be a miss but would it also earn the shooter a procedural if the other 9 rounds were shot correctly?

 

NO.

 

[Hoss]

14 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

IMO...some of y'all would benefit from a review of current rules regarding violations and penalties.

Taking a refresher tomorrow! 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

It is always a good idea to review safety procedures and seek to improve safety with an understanding that you Can try to be TOO safe.

 

Life itself is not safe, but it is good.  We must accept some risk.  Or stay at home where 20% or more accidents happen....
(Probably safer at the range )

 

Want an example of trying to be too safe and weaken safety?

 

Carrying your self defense weapon, keep the chamber empty.  When serious danger presents, you just added 1 - 2 seconds to fumble with your guns while being attacked.  And possibly, you will be doing this one handed - either due to injury or needed one hand to fend off danger.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ActiveSelfProtection/search?query=empty chamber

 

Another example?

At one LARGE range in Fort Worth we always shot on a cold range.  In some spots that was isolated.  That helped the people walk up behind you, draw their weapons and steal all your guns.  Happened several times before leaders learned to accept "safer" procedures.

Plus, as police have discovered, training on a cold range leaves dangerous "training scars" that lead to problems when doing their jobs.

 

I don't mind a cold range at our shoots since there are many people, some inexperienced and we can all make mistakes. 
Just realize that there is still a risk of being invaded, especially in these more perilous times. 

 

[Tennessee williams]

5 hours ago, Mister Badly said:

2 SDQ in a MATCH is a MATCH DQ

2 on a stage is 2 in a match

[Eyesa Horg]

3 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

It is always a good idea to review safety procedures and seek to improve safety with an understanding that you Can try to be TOO safe.

 

Life itself is not safe, but it is good.  We must accept some risk.  Or stay at home where 20% or more accidents happen....
(Probably safer at the range )

 

Want an example of trying to be too safe and weaken safety?

 

Carrying your self defense weapon, keep the chamber empty.  When serious danger presents, you just added 1 - 2 seconds to fumble with your guns while being attacked.  And possibly, you will be doing this one handed - either due to injury or needed one hand to fend off danger.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ActiveSelfProtection/search?query=empty chamber

 

Another example?

At one LARGE range in Fort Worth we always shot on a cold range.  In some spots that was isolated.  That helped the people walk up behind you, draw their weapons and steal all your guns.  Happened several times before leaders learned to accept "safer" procedures.

Plus, as police have discovered, training on a cold range leaves dangerous "training scars" that lead to problems when doing their jobs.

 

I don't mind a cold range at our shoots since there are many people, some inexperienced and we can all make mistakes. 
Just realize that there is still a risk of being invaded, especially in these more perilous times. 

 

Getting robbed at gun point at the range?!?

That's discouraging and surprising.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

5 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Getting robbed at gun point at the range?!?

That's discouraging and surprising.

The guys that lost several valuable rifles were pretty shocked as well.

 

[Scarlett]

At the risk of having @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L shut down the thread, I’m with @Possum Skinner, SASS#60697. As TO, I do NOT like calling shooters BACK.  Too dangerous in my opinion. Too much can go wrong. I’ve seen shooters turn around and sweep posse, drop firearms, trip etc.. I understand the rules… Maybe I can put Possum Skinner’s point in plain talk. Once a firearm has been discarded from the shooters hands, he/she earns whatever it is.  Just like if your hammer is back when you stage rifle … it leaves your hands, you’re done for that stage. The BIGGEST problem with this kind of situation is the posse screaming “OPEN LEVER” or “ONE MORE” and TO then has to work double to maintain safety on line. 
 

Don’t hate on me, please. I have merely expressed my opinion. You’re each entitled to your own.  
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L shut @Possum Skinner, SASS#60697. Once a firearm has been discarded from the shooters hands, he/she earns whatever it is.  Just like if your hammer is back when you stage rifle … it leaves your hands, you’re done for that stage. The BIGGEST problem with this kind of situation is the posse screaming “OPEN LEVER” or “ONE MORE” and TO then has to work double to maintain safety on line. 

 

 

Don’t hate on me, please. I have merely expressed my opinion. You’re each entitled to your own.  
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

That is not necessarily the case, a long gun discarded with a live round in the chamber is a SDQ but live round on the carrier or empty on carrier or in chamber can be corrected before next firearm is shot. I rarely will call back a shooter for closed lever. The only thing I call out to a shooter leaving a Shotgun is "hull" their choice if they want to correct it.

[Mister Badly]

16 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

2 on a stage is 2 in a match

It sure is! 

[Equanimous Phil]

10 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Once a firearm has been discarded from the shooters hands, he/she earns whatever it is.  Just like if your hammer is back when you stage rifle … it leaves your hands, you’re done for that stage.

Sounds conclusive to me. Either you made some kind of safety violation or you did not, but you cannot "undo" a safety violation. You can correct the state of the firearm but you cannot correct the violation, imho. Kind of related: "A shooter should not be allowed to pick up a dropped firearm. The TO should recover the firearm, ..." (SHB p.16).

The rule book requires that there's nothing on the long gun's carrier or in the chamber when leaving shooter's hand. It's a simple rule. If there is anything on carrier or in chamber, the shooter doesn't know the state of his/her firearm and that sounds like unsafe gun handling to me.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Sounds conclusive to me. Either you made some kind of safety violation or you did not, but you cannot "undo" a safety violation. You can correct the state of the firearm but you cannot correct the violation, imho. Kind of related: "A shooter should not be allowed to pick up a dropped firearm. The TO should recover the firearm, ..." (SHB p.16).

The rule book requires that there's nothing on the long gun's carrier or in the chamber when leaving shooter's hand. It's a simple rule. If there is anything on carrier or in chamber, the shooter doesn't know the state of his/her firearm and that sounds like unsafe gun handling to me.

In that light,

 

Since you are ignoring the rest of the rule book, should we stop the stage at point and call it a DNF or a SDQ?

 

Once again, I see we are near the point of trying to be "completely safe"

[Equanimous Phil]

46 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Since you are ignoring the rest of the rule book , should we stop the stage at point and call it a DNF or a SDQ?

Please elaborate your point about ignoring the rest of the SHB, I somehow don't get that.

Leave the rifle untouched and finish the stage. TO unhurriedly examines the rifle and assesses penalty (SDQ, MSV, none) depending on state.

55 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Once again, I see we are near the point of trying to be "completely safe"

As you mentioned before, there is no such thing as complete safety. But the goal is to achieve reasonable safety. And to get that (to be one step ahead) we have to penalize things that are technically safe, like dropping an empty gun on the firing line or sweeping someone with an empty gun. Because if someone does that with an empty gun it might happen with a loaded gun. I see it that way with restaging a non-empty gun. If someone can't manage to make sure the gun is empty when leaving hands, at some time there might be an overloaded round in it. Therefore the MSV for a case left in the rifle makes sense to me. Just my opinion.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just one example of the TO's responsibilities:

Quote

Typical occurrences for which the TO must be vigilant are hulls left in long gun actions or “taking the firearm with you” when instructed by the stage description. Immediately alert the shooter so they may correct the situation before they move to the next firing position.

RO2 p.7

 

If someone is reluctant to take on the duties of a TO, leave that job to someone who will.