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Chrono readings curiosity


Eyesa Horg
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What do you experts think? All cartridges are roll crimped.
 
Readings off laptop screen.
Using my CE Pro Crono which doesn't seem to show average PF. In fact it showed on the left as the last shot fired and was actually the 10th out of 30 and didn't change when I switched strings. Odd I think. Anyhow this is what I got. Seem a tad speedy to me, but still get minor unburnt powder.
 
Marlin.  45 colt 5.2gr. Clays, 200 RNFP coated.
HV- 959
LV- 829
A- 890
ES- 130
SD- 44
HPF- 191.8
LPF- 165.8
 
Left Ruger NMV 4.65 inch  C45S  4.2 gr. Clays,160 RNFP coated 
HV- 744
LV- 619
A- 670
ES- 125
SD- 41
HPF- 119.04
LPF- 99.04
 
Right Ruger NMV 4.65 inch C45S 4.2gr. Clays, 160 RNFP coated
HV- 770
LV- 614
A- 688
ES- 125
SD- 51
HPF- 123.2
LPF- 99.04
 
It is possible on the pistols that there  could be a mix of standard and magnum primers, all the colts should have been standard. All Federal.
 
Been using this loading for years without issue per se, just chronoed for a Pard to compare, which I haven't done for quite some time. It was 64 deg. out and overcast.
 
Thanks for any insight.
EH
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Those readings seem odd.  IF you really have 150fps difference you need to work on your loads. CE chronos do not have a great reputation for accuracy so that might be part of it but you need to carefully clean the cell in it and that might help also put in new batteries..

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18 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

Those readings seem odd.  IF you really have 150fps difference you need to work on your loads. CE chronos do not have a great reputation for accuracy so that might be part of it but you need to carefully clean the cell in it and that might help also put in new batteries..

The battery isn't brand new, but was in the spring when I was working on WB loads, I'll have to check the sensors, they may be dirty. The Pard I did this for also had a large spread, a bit higher than mine. He also was using Clays. Maybe it's the powder!

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4 minutes ago, Vail Vigilante said:

Just a thought...

How far from the muzzle is the chrono?

Reason is that sometimes I have found that a chrono can "lock" to the non-bullet residue that come flying out with it.

I always keep my chrono 2 - 3 yards away from the muzzle.

It was roughly 6 feet from muzzle to front of Chrono and I shot about 6 inches above it with no sun screens as it was overcast. Due to covid I was a little shakey, all are on target at normal CAS distance. I also simulated a normal match for powder position in the cartridge. Walked about 20 ft. with rifle vertical, layed it down and picked it up to shoot. Pistols from the holster.

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3 minutes ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

Powder position a factor?

Try holding muzzle up before shooting all loads and see if the results are more even.

Tried to simulate actual match conditions, but you bring up a valid point when trying to get a consistent Chrono reading. I'll give that a try next time and point up before each shot.

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I'm pleased to see Cowboys using a Chronograph. The results you are getting seem to be what I'd expect. One thing to consider is that Clays may not be a suitable powder for Cowboy work. That is why we chronograph, knowing beats guessing. 

 

I tried Clays in my 45 S&W Schofield and abandoned it after two tests. Sure, I may not have given it a fair evaluation but I saw no need to flog a bad experiment. 

 

First load:

 

Calibre

45 S&W Schofield

Date Loaded

2022-04-22

Powder

Clays

Weight in Grains

4.0 (5L)

Bullet

Cactus 230 gr. (45 Auto)

Weight in Grains

236

Primer

Fed 150 LP

Loaded OAL

1.418

Case

¬ 45 ¬  SCHOFIELD

Weight in Grains

99

Times Loaded

1F

Number loaded

10

Firearm

 

Barrel clean/fouled

 

Velocity Av

674.3/669.4

Es

30.4/106

Sd

13.4/40.7

Shots

4>/5<

Comments

 

1 shot low fps in < string.

 

Second load:

 

Calibre

45 S&W Schofield

Date Loaded

2022-04-22

Powder

Clays

Weight in Grains

4.0 (5L)

Bullet

Cactus 230 gr. (45 Auto)

Weight in Grains

236

Primer

CCI 300 LP

Loaded OAL

1.418

Case

¬ 45 ¬  SCHOFIELD

Weight in Grains

99

Times Loaded

2F

Number loaded

10

Firearm

 

Barrel clean/fouled

 

Velocity Av

675.5/625

Es

41.6/91.2

Sd

16.5/37.5

Shots

5>/5<

Comments

 

The load is accurate enough, but the numbers aren't good. 

 

In a post on the wire a few days back A Cowboy suggested a very good chrograph procedure, if I find it I'll post it. 

 

Just to illustrate that my numbers were good, no chronograph of other issues, I'll post a later test. 

 

Calibre

45 S&W Schofield

Date Loaded

2022-09-04

Powder

452AA 

Weight in Grains

4.0

Bullet

LEE 452-228 RN 451

Weight in Grains

228 - 230

Primer

WLP

Loaded OAL

1.40

Case

¬ 45 ¬  SCHOFIELD

Weight in Grains

103

Times Loaded

New brass

Number loaded

20

Firearm

45 S&W Open Top 

Barrel clean/fouled

 

Velocity Av

638/642

Es

38.8/31

Sd

16/15

Shots

4>/5<

Firearm

45 Colt Vaquero 

Barrel clean/fouled

 

Velocity Av

657/661.2

Es

24.8/19.8

Sd

10.5/8

Shots

5>/5<

 

 

You can try swapping primer brands with Clays but I think it won't tighten it much. IMO not a good Cowboy powder. 

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As promised, I've quoted Gateway Kid, without permission, for which I apologize. 

 

"Quick and dirty way especially for low powder volume loads (light loads) that don't mostly fill the case.

Set up a chronograph.

1) Take your loaded hand gun and safely point muzzle towards sky.

2) Gently bring muzzle parallel to ground and fire a round over your chronograph.

Repeat 1-2 for the remaining rounds.

1A) Next take loaded hand gun and point towards ground.

2A) Gently bring muzzle parallel to ground and fire a round over your chronograph.

Repeat 1A-2A for remaining rounds

1B) Take your loaded hand gun and hold parallel to ground.

2B) Give a brisk push forward and back, then fire a round over the chronograph.

Repeat 1B-2B for remaining rounds

This will give you powder forward, powder more or less level and powder rearward in the case.

Review data from chronograph, big variances in velocity are what you are looking for, same for noticeable sound differences or felt recoil.

Again not the most precise test but if you are borderline on your powder load and/or the powder is one of those that could be position sensitive it will be pretty obvious.

A version of this at one time was used to verify compliance with power factor requirements in Wild bunch. Don't know if they still do it or not.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid"

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Been using Clays for a long time and don't perceive any difference shot to shot. Many folks do use Clays for cowboy. However, my method of chronoing has now shown obvious errors due to powder position. I was able to score some Clean Shot, so am going to give that a shot so to speak. I've heard on this wire some good comments about it.

Edited by Eyesa Horg
An Eyesa Otto!
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Clays is my favorite powder for 45 Colt pistol loads.  4.6gr (Hodgdon minimum) with 200gr bullet is very clean, brass falls out of the cylinders.  Haven't chrono'd it and haven't loaded 45 Cowboy Special so can't comment on that.  But I love Clays!  Picked up a couple pounds of Clay-Dot in case I run out of Clays before it is available again.

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Years ago, I had the same results using Clays in 38's. Tried a lot of different combinations of powder, bullets and primers. The best powder I found for low standard deviations was VihtaVuori N320. With a 125gr truncated cone bullet, Federal mag primer and a .010 taper crimp, I got my standard deviations under 10. 

 

When SASS instituted the Power Factor years ago, Coyote Calhoun Coyote Calhoun, AKA Lamar Shelnutt and I shot everyone's guns through his chronograph at an annual match on Founders Ranch. We did this on side match day so everyone would know what their power factor was. I shot the guns and he recorded the results. There were about 125 people we did this for. The results were eye opening to a lot of people. Some deviations were 200+. The warthog award went to Hipshot. :-) At the end of shooting we realized we shot everyone's guns but ours. I shot his, then mine. He was shocked to see my deviations averaged 8. The closest deviation to it was 30 something.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Always use fresh batteries or do a fresh recharge before each crono trip.

When did you last clean the screens?

Honestly, I've never cleaned them. I've always had a lexan cover over it, but decided to remove it due to scratches and wasn't blasting BP over it. There was a little dust down in the holes that I just blew out. Was hesitant to try cleaners or Q tip, not knowing what they are made of . They don't look dirty per se.

 

Edited by Eyesa Horg
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3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Been using Clays for a long time and don't perceive any difference shot to shot. Many folks do use Clays for cowboy. However, my method of chronoing has now shown obvious errors due to powder position. I was able to score some Clean Shot, so am going to give that a shot so to speak. I've heard on this wire some good comments about it.

 

I had a load go south, bad primers, and was getting differences that I could hear. I chrono'd them and some were more than 100 fps slow. I'm not sure at what point the human ear can detect a difference, but I've chrono'd enough to appreciate having an instrument to measure speed and not rely on my ears. IMO if you can hear the difference, you are way outside the zone. 

 

BB

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I'd mic the bullets as well, to see if they are round and the same size. Diameter and out-of-round can affect velocities. And honestly, my opinion is that if they're accurate at the distance I intend to use them, I'm not concerned if the ES/SD is bigger than I'd like.

 

Clays is more position sensitive than say Titegroup (TG). With TG, I get ES under 50 with only 5.5 grains in 45 Colt w/255 grain bullets, or 3.0 grains in 38 Special with 160 grain bullets. Tons of empty space in the cases, but almost no difference between shooting "normally" and tipping the barrel up between shots to settle the powder towards the primers. My bullets are fairly soft (approximately the same Brinell as 20:1 alloy) hand-cast with flat base and soft lube. Going to commercial hard-cast, bevel-base designs with crayon lube increases the ES/SD as well as group size, and I get more fouling.

 

That being said, Clays is my hands-down favorite powder for 45 ACP with cast bullets...clean and accurate, regardless of ES. And for 44 Special "gallery loads" using muzzleloader balls, it can't be beat.

Edited by Noah Mercy, SASS #29066
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I'll give more Chrono distance a try as well. I've definitely been way closer than that. 8-10' at best. 

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6 hours ago, Vail Vigilante said:

Just a thought...

How far from the muzzle is the chrono?

Reason is that sometimes I have found that a chrono can "lock" to the non-bullet residue that come flying out with it.

I always keep my chrono 2 - 3 yards away from the muzzle.

 

What Vail stated would be my 1st thought.     I have found that 8 ft. has served me well in all my testing.  And... I have found

5-6 feet from muzzle gives me erratic readings sometimes.

 

As for CLAYS powder...... for me, it has always been temperature sensitive in cooler/cold weather, regardless of volume, primer or

any other variable I tried for my reloads.     A stopped using CLAYS in my pistol and rifle reloads a few years ago.

One sign of inconsistent burning with CLAYS  will be 'bird seed' residue.

 

..........Widder

 

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When working up a load using a chronographing, limiting the number of variables is vital.

 

Use primers from the same lot number.

 

Use all the same headstamp brass. Different headstamps will have different internal volume. If possible use brass from the same lot #.

 

Make sure all the brass is the same OAL. This almost always means trimming them all to the same length. Even with new brass the OAL can vary. OAL is important as this is what determines how much crimp is applied. This is true even with factory crimp dies.

 

Use powder from the same lot number.

 

Make sure the bullets are round, same OAL, same profile, and weigh the same. 

 

Weight every powder charge. With a charge of 5 grains. A variation of plus or minus 0.1 grains equals a variation of 4%. With a 2.7 grain charge the same plus or minus 0.1 grains is a 7% variation. 

This alone can cause the ES to be very large. 

 

Ensure all the primer pockets are clean.

 

Make sure your Chronograph has fresh batteries. Fresh means recently purchased and not some that have been sitting in a drawer for a couple years.

 

Make sure the chronograph is stable and not vibrating or wiggling due to muzzle blast, wind, or any other outside force. Check that the sensors are securely attached to the boom. If there is any movement no matter how slight secure the sensors to the boom with some tape.

 

Don't set up the Chronograph in direct sunlight. Try to keep everything in the shade. As things heat up the values of electrical components can change causing variations in readings over time

 

Debur the flash holes. It is not uncommon to see flash holes with a bur or protrusion inside the case.

 

Lastly for the utmost accuracy make sure all the primer pockets are uniform.

 

Each and every one of the above contributes to the ES value.

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Weigh 10 charges and run those.

How much variation do you see with ten throws from your PM?

I'll give that try as well. When I set up my SDB, I usually drop 3 at a time and weigh and adjust til I'm triple my desired weight regularly. For the sake of consistency, I will actually weigh out 10 separate charges next time. For the posted numbers, I just grabbed random cartridges from my cowboy loads, which are getting low now being the end of the season. All brass is same lot Starline. Although they've been reloaded quite a few times.

My loads haven't been an issue for me, I was just surprised to see such a spread.

 

I also check a powder drop occasionally while loading and they are always within a tenth.

Edited by Eyesa Horg
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Would it also be reasonable to assume that there would be some variance just due to the blow-by in the Marlin and possible throat differences in the Rugers. Non of the guns were cleaned before the OP test either.

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1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Would it also be reasonable to assume that there would be some variance just due to the blow-by in the Marlin and possible throat differences in the Rugers. Non of the guns were cleaned before the OP test either.

 

Yes 

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11 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

When working up a load using a chronographing, limiting the number of variables is vital.

 

Use primers from the same lot number.

 

Use all the same headstamp brass. Different headstamps will have different internal volume. If possible use brass from the same lot #.

 

Make sure all the brass is the same OAL. This almost always means trimming them all to the same length. Even with new brass the OAL can vary. OAL is important as this is what determines how much crimp is applied. This is true even with factory crimp dies.

 

Use powder from the same lot number.

 

Make sure the bullets are round, same OAL, same profile, and weigh the same. 

 

Weight every powder charge. With a charge of 5 grains. A variation of plus or minus 0.1 grains equals a variation of 4%. With a 2.7 grain charge the same plus or minus 0.1 grains is a 7% variation. 

This alone can cause the ES to be very large. 

 

Ensure all the primer pockets are clean.

 

Make sure your Chronograph has fresh batteries. Fresh means recently purchased and not some that have been sitting in a drawer for a couple years.

 

Make sure the chronograph is stable and not vibrating or wiggling due to muzzle blast, wind, or any other outside force. Check that the sensors are securely attached to the boom. If there is any movement no matter how slight secure the sensors to the boom with some tape.

 

Don't set up the Chronograph in direct sunlight. Try to keep everything in the shade. As things heat up the values of electrical components can change causing variations in readings over time

 

Debur the flash holes. It is not uncommon to see flash holes with a bur or protrusion inside the case.

 

Lastly for the utmost accuracy make sure all the primer pockets are uniform.

 

Each and every one of the above contributes to the ES value.

 

 

 

 

 

Good advice and important. It's not unusual for me to weight sort my brass when I buy a new package. In addition I often uniform the flash hole. After that I just keep that batch in its own labelled box. On a new batch of brass it really doesn't take that much time. If I grab a bag of "Range Brass", I sort by headstamp first, then weight sort, etc. 

 

This all helps for consistency. 

 

In the real world this only has a small effect. It will improve the numbers but it doesn't seem to get you a huge improvement. 

 

Culling the light/heavy bullets and setting the bad looking ones gets you a bigger bang for the buck. Pit run buckets of bullets vary in weight considerably, as do ones you cast yourself. I sort all my cast, I don't get anal, my criteria is not that tight. Typical would be a 255 45 bullet to sorted to 253 to 256, and in the sizer any bullet that doesn't size with some resistance is culled. This is usually only 1 or 2 per 50. The original weight sort has a 30% cull, worst case. (I'm not that good a caster).  

 

When developing a load I usually select 10 or so prepared cases, and select weight sorted bullets. After all, I want to test my load, and don't need other variables. If I test later, random selection out of the ammo box I expect that the numbers will be a bit worse, but they usually are only slightly worse. 

 

I apologize for the rambling, I'm explaining the methodology more than trying to make a point. 

 

What I hope to see is that the average velocities for powder forward and rearward are within 10 fps of each other, and that the extreme spread for powder forward is 10 fps or less and the same for powder rearward. This is what I refer to as a 10-10-10 load. Out of the box this will test within my 20-20-20 criteria. 

 

However, weighing powder charges is not something I do. I use a good measure, set it up and check what it throws, but for even my test loads, they are whatever the measure throws. My reasoning is that I'll not be weighing charges when I load ammo, and I want ammo that is not overly sensitive to small variations in powder charge. 

 

Ideally, when the combo is good, small variations will only have minimal influence. 

 

I usually set a velocity goal, I try to be realistic but bottom line I like to keep well below the maximum 1000 fps. The charge of powder is what controls this so my first test load will be with a charge that should achieve that target velocity. 

 

What I'm looking for:

  1. was the velocity close to my goal velocity
  2. was the load powder position sensitive
  3. was the extreme spread within reason
  4. did the load run clean or was leading evident

I would then adjust 1. if 2, 3 and 4 were within reason.

 

It's not unusual to find that certain powders will work well at higher velocities but fall on its face at lower velocities. This is just a fact of life. In addition you may find that at lower velocities the load becomes a little less consistent, again, a fact of life. You have to accept that our application of lower than normal velocities is somewhat a niche application. YMMV but I've met with some challenges. 

 

One of the more effective fine tuning tools is primer selection. They do not all work the same. there is no one best primer. If you set up your gun to only reliably fire the lightest primer, IMHO you are handicapping yourself for load development. 

 

I will admit that I didn't really give Clays much of a chance, it just seemed to be a bit too erratic. I had other powders that showed more promise. 

 

To be honest, I would not have tried other powders if I hadn't run out of Trail Boss. I found that if I loaded Trail Boss to 70% load density I had a good load. A bit dirty, but the advantage of not having a double charge trumped the bit of dirty. 

 

I sure hope that the component shortage solves itself before I run out of 452AA. 

 

As with any testing, it is good to have a control. IOW a load or factory ammunition that is consistent to use for comparison or control. I have a small stash of Trail Boss squirreled away for that purpose. 

 

BB

 

 

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I'm certainly getting an invaluable education here, thanks guys. The next Chrono run will try to minimize the variables as much as possible. However, these are for cowboy and moa accuracy isn't too critical , especially with my being a middle of the road shooter to begin with.:)

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It's going to be interesting to see the results when I remove the variables.:) It may be a bit due to rain now! I'm pretty sure I won't go thru this when loading several hundred for cowboy though!:P went thru about a hundred bullets to find 10 that weighed exactly the same, there was a 6gr. difference in them, settled on 205.6. Using brand new Starline brass, picked 10 exactly the same length, but a few tenths different in weight. Will use Federal Magnum Match primers as they are the only match primers I have on hand and will hopefully be pretty consistent. Now to set up the SDB for 45c and will check each powder drop and adjust as needed to be exact. It's been fun, but a bit time consuming so far. I can see now where long range shooters find all this to be critical.

My used brass are about a 10 thousandths spread in length, but didn't weigh them. But the length and bullet weight difference may be why some of my OP numbers were so varied. Can't wait to see what the Chrono says this time. Hopefully in a couple days.

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EH,

 

I just did a "sight-in" and review of a "new-to-me" 1885 in .32-40 with 50 pieces of brass that I had on hand and a new bag of lead bullets I had sent to me for testing purposes.  I loaded all the rounds with approx. 40 grains of APP behind the 170 grain bullets, but didn't take any care to make the motion of the powder drop consistent from one round to the next.  Usually, I'll "knock" the handle of the powder drop twice on both ends of the travel.  I didn't do that this time and when I chrono'd the loads, my numbers looked very much like yours.    Maybe slightly worse.  I even noted to myself as I set the bullets on each case that there were several diff'rent heights of powder in the cases, some compressed more than others.  And the numbers don't lie.  Poor consistency and patterns versus grouping.  Even as I loaded I knew these were not going to be target worthy loads, but in my rush to shoot this new rifle, I ignored what I saw and know to be true.  After shooting, cleaning brass and getting my head right with better results in mind, I reloaded using precisely measured loads (as precise as volume measured BP loads can be), I sorted bullets and seated with greater care to length and crimp.  Now I just need to take a few days off and go the range.

Edited by Griff
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7 minutes ago, Griff said:

EH,

 

I just did a "sight-in" and review of a "new-to-me 1885 in .32-40 with 50 pieces of brass that I had on hand and a new bag of lead bullets I had sent to me for testing purposes.  I loaded all the rounds with approx. 40 grains of APP behind the 170 grain bullets, but didn't take any care to make the motion of the powder drop consistent from one round to the next.  Usually, I'll "knock" the handle of the powder drop twice on both ends of the travel.  I didn't do that this time and when I chrono'd the loads, my numbers looked very much like yours.    Maybe slightly worse.  I even noted to myself as I set the bullets on each case that there were several didn't heights of powder in the cases, some compressed more than others.  And the numbers don't lie.  Poor consistency and patterns versus grouping.  Even as I loaded I knew these were not going to be target worthy loads, but in my rush to shoot this new rifle, I ignored what I saw and know to be true.  After shooting, cleaning brass and getting my head right with better results in mind, I reloaded using precisely measured loads (as precise as volume measured BP loads can be), I sorted bullets and seated with greater care to length and crimp.  Now I just need to take a few days off and go the range.

One major advantage I have, is my range is in the backyard!  Have fun with that '85

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3 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

One major advantage I have, is my range is in the backyard!  Have fun with that '85

Mine normally is also, but... anything over a 100 yards & I don't have a backstop, and my neighbors cows don't absorb lead well.  Okay, yes they do, but I'm sure it'll be the most expensive damned beef I'd have to buy!  Mine would be!

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Uniform crimps aid in consistency especially with roll crimps it is very helpful to have all brass the same length.  Those on the longer size will have heavier crips and may even have case bulge.  Those on the shorter side may have little or no crimp.

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Okay, I narrowed the variables as much as I could. 

All bullets weighed 205.6gr. @ .452 dia.

5.0gr. Clays, individually weighed.

New Starline brass all the same length, but a few grains different in weight.

Fed match magnum primers.

New battery in Chrono, set at 15' from muzzle of Marlin.

Loaded each through port, pointed straight up, tapped side of receiver 4 times and then leveled slowly for the shot.

Here's what I got. Look much better, but still a little fast I think. Just hesitant due to blow-by to reduce the load much more!

HV- 957

LV- 917

AV- 939

ES- 40

SD- 13

The only variable still in there that I didn't notice right away, was the brass were a tad short for the bell setting on my SDB. Noticed later I had shaved a slight lead ring on at least some of the bullets. But the Chrono readings seem to be conciderably better as was suggested by all of you. Thank you.

I doubt for our game that I will ever get that anal just for my regular reloading. It would take forever to weigh and mic hundreds! :D

 

EH

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