Bullet Setback Concerns

[Tallboy]

Hey,

 

I have a number of lever guns in .357, and I have a few new lever guns coming in .44mag, 30-30,  and 45-70 Govt.

 

I don't reload myself, and I'm extremely hesitant of reloaded/reman ammo, however I found a bullet manufacturer/reloader who does lots of reloading for some very successful SASS shooters, and has been going strong for 35+ years, so I feel like I can trust them to reload the above calibers for me.

 

The last few times shooting I noticed 2 instances where a .357 cowboy/comfort load failed to feed. When went to pull it out I noticed the bullet was set back, nearly 100% into the cartridge.

 

I asked them about it but I wanted to hear some alternate perspectives as well.

 

Currently in the all the above calibers ... 357, 44mag, 30-30, 45-70, I have gotten/plan to get both standard loads, as well as comfort/cowboy loads (just waiting on new rifles to arrive). I'm only mentioning this because that may be an important consideration if the powder level in comfort loads leaves a lot more empty space in the cartridge.

 

Now for my questions:

 

1) While I've only experienced this for .357, is this something that can just as easily happen on the other calibers I mentioned, perhaps due to their design/specs? I'm hoping the answer is "not nearly as likely" on the other calibers.

 

2) Is this something I should be considerably worried about in the bigger calibers? I keep reading things about how it can blow up the gun. I'm hoping this is a common issue that reloaders encounter and has some good guidelines/wisdom associated with it.

 

3) Is there anything I can actually do? What do you yourself do if this is a concern? Checking every single seated round kind of defeats the fun of a lever gun.

 

After I saw it happen, it kind of sketched me out and I think about it a lot now, and i will definitely be thinking of it even more when I shoot those higher calibers when those rifles arrive. I don't want to be overly worried, but also would like to learn any wisdom anyone has to offer.

 

Also, without even reading replies I'm going to assume "load it yourself!!" is going to be in a lot of replies, but that's out of the question currently given my work area/home, time, etc. I also don't see how my noob results would be better than someone who has been loading for cowboy guns for multiple decades.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Sounds like your cartridges need to be crimped better. You could do that yourself without a lot of equipment.

[Scarlett]

Length of experience does not equal attention to detail or quality. The cartridges that had bullets go back in (telescope) were not properly crimped and the pressure of the other cartridges in the tube was enough to force it back into the case. It could also have resulted in a squib… 

 

Your concerns are valid and while you said “checking every round defeats the purpose of a lever gun” it also defeats the purpose of having someone load for you! 
 

Based on your original post, in attention to detail/quality can happen with 44 just as easily as with 38s.  
 

I would have a conversation with the person and let them know what happened.  That you’re concerned now about any ammo you’ve gotten from him/her.  You can tell a LOT about a person/business by how they handle challenges. 
 

I offer cartridges in some of the calibers you mentioned and if you’d gotten them from me, I would be more upset than you and would send you a prepaid return label to return any ammo you still had that you got from me and I would replace it all - original order. (I would also hand inspect every cartridge I sent as a replacement). 
 

Good luck. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

We see this a lot at matches.  Usually .38's but larger calibers as well.  It is mostly from cracked brass that let's the bullet "turtle", but occasionally because somebody didn't crimp or poorly.  This will usually cause a jam or stoppage which needs to be cleared before the shooter can continue.  If they're good, they can do that on the clock, if not then they set the rifle down and continue on.  In either case, you can see the problem short cartridge while clearing it, so just don't try to shoot that one.

[Yul Lose]

Tall boy, what part of California are you in?

[Tallboy]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Length of experience does not equal attention to detail or quality. The cartridges that had bullets go back in (telescope) were not properly crimped and the pressure of the other cartridges in the tube was enough to force it back into the case. It could also have resulted in a squib… 

 

Your concerns are valid and while you said “checking every round defeats the purpose of a lever gun” it also defeats the purpose of having someone load for you! 
 

Based on your original post, in attention to detail/quality can happen with 44 just as easily as with 38s.  
 

I would have a conversation with the person and let them know what happened.  That you’re concerned now about any ammo you’ve gotten from him/her.  You can tell a LOT about a person/business by how they handle challenges. 
 

I offer cartridges in some of the calibers you mentioned and if you’d gotten them from me, I would be more upset than you and would send you a prepaid return label to return any ammo you still had that you got from me and I would replace it all - original order. (I would also hand inspect every cartridge I sent as a replacement). 
 

Good luck. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

Interesting info, thank you. The vibe I get from him is that he's very experienced. I've picked his brain on some other things that I've seen a lot of conflicting info about and I always liked how much knowledge he has. In his reply he went into a lot of detail about the specifics of crimping, load density, and the complex crimping process not being perfect.

[Tallboy]

4 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Tall boy, what part of California are you in?

Not near your location in San Diego sadly

[Scarlett]

There is nothing complex about crimping. We are shooting low velocity rounds… this is not precision or mile long rifle shots. Yes, bad things can happen and you must know what you are doing however, sounds to me like he is feeding you a lot of excuses with some mumbo jumbo thrown in to make you feel like you don’t understand the “intricacies” of reloading. I would go elsewhere. 
 

Just so you know - my advice is NOT to try to get your business.   I won’t ship ammo to California or other prohibited places. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Tallboy]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

There is nothing complex about crimping. We are shooting low velocity rounds… this is not precision or mile long rifle shots. Yes, bad things can happen and you must know what you are doing however, sounds to me like he is feeding you a lot of excuses with some mumbo jumbo thrown in to make you feel like you don’t understand the “intricacies” of reloading. I would go elsewhere. 
 

Just so you know - my advice is NOT to try to get your business.   I won’t ship ammo to California or other prohibited places. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

Thanks for the insight. I don't want to misquote him, he didn't say complex process, he said they use a somewhat complex tool. I was sort of paraphrasing.

Also, I get what you're saying. I work in an exceptionally technical and difficult field for my career where I deal with this sort of thing quite literally nearly every day, so I feel my radar for detecting people trying to throw industry terms for malicious purposes is far above average, and I don't at all get that vibe from him. That's actually why I trust him with reloading because of how comprehensive and lucid his answers are. All the information was cohesive and well explained, just didn't have a fully concrete "conclusion" (and he hasn't replied yet to my follow up, so I can't say he won't either)

 

I just also wanted to make a reply here anyway, just to get other perspectives like your own!

 

PS...... bummer about no shipping to California. I'm used to this abuse though LOL

[Trailrider #896]

While a proper roll crimp is very important, there are several other factors that should be taken into account.  Proper case neck tension on the bullet is also important.  If, after resizing the cartridge case, too large an expander plug is used, that can cause the bullet to telescope back into the case.  The plug should be at least .002-.003" smaller than the bullet diameter.  Another thing that can affect "bullet pull", the force required to pull the bullet out of the case, or prevent it from telescoping is too much crimp. A good roll crimp should only appear to be visible, but not so much so as to bulge the case mouth away from the side of the bullet! 

 

Another thing that can be done when sizing the case is to size it below where the base of the bullet will be when seated.  This doesn't have to be excessive...just enough to be visible as a "wasp waist".  But won't that excessively work the case when the wasp waist expands out due to gas pressure?  Some, but not all that much.  I load .44-40 using Winchester brass, which is very thin walled. I have brass that I have reloaded over 20 times using this method, and have lost very few, and those mostly due to "pitcher-mouthing" due to the mouth of the case catching on the extractor cut in the breach end of my Rossi Puma (older model), before I smoothed the surface that the case was catching on upon ejection.  A few other cases were literally lost in tall grass! 

 

I would talk with your ammo loader.  If he isn't co-operative, I'd find another source of reloads...or invest in the equipment, and learn to load your own.

[Texas Jack Black]

I would suggest you buy a few reloading books and learn how  to reload.

 

Best Wishes

[Kid Rich]

A short case will contribute very often to an insufficient crimp and is much less likely to be spotted by inspection than a split case. There are a couple of brands that are shorter than standard and will give this result.

kR

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Just start reloading on your own. It adds that much more to what we do and, unless you're shooting thousands of rounds a month, you can get into it rather cheaply.

I started with and ran a single stage Lee setup for years before doling out the bucks for a Dillon.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

You want a firm roll-crimp on those cartridges. 

Find another ammo supplier like Scarlett Darlin. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Cartridges that do that, are often called "Turtles."  From your description, your "experienced" loader is blowing smoke up yer skirt.  There is nothing tricky, complex, nor requiring complex tools about reloading and or crimping.  It's all basic stuff.  Either find a different supplier or buy some loading manuals, a press and DIY.

[Tallboy]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You want a firm roll-crimp on those cartridges. 

Find another ammo supplier like Scarlett Darlin. 

Fair enough, although she said she doesn't ship to CA... any other suggestions?

[Cypress Sun]

Spend the money on a reloading machine, manuals, primers, powder, bullets, etc. California's ammo laws are NOT going to get any better. Reloading is not hard to do, either mentally or physically. Even in CA, you can still buy powder, primers and bullets shipped direct to you. For well under $1,000, you could buy a (used) Dillon 550C, powder, primers, bullets, scale, calipers, manual and dies. Plenty of YouTube videos to learn from.

 

Do yourself a big favor, learn to reload.

[Tallboy]

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

Spend the money on a reloading machine, manuals, primers, powder, bullets, etc. California's ammo laws are NOT going to get any better. Reloading is not hard to do, either mentally or physically. Even in CA, you can still buy powder, primers and bullets shipped direct to you. For well under $1,000, you could buy a (used) Dillon 550C, powder, primers, bullets, scale, calipers, manual and dies. Plenty of YouTube videos to learn from.

 

Do yourself a big favor, learn to reload.

 

I mean trust me, I've seriously considered it. I just literally have no real room to put anything unless it's outside in a wood shed. I guess I can haul everything to my garage every time I reload but that just doesn't seem like something I'm going to want to do once familiarity sets in.

 

Can I load all the following cartridges with a single press? That part I never really understood. I know I need different dies...

 

• .357 mag
• .44 mag
• 45 LC
• 30-30
• 45-70

I could buy factory loads for 30-30 probably as I'm not sure cowboy loads are possible with that?

 

The rest I would want to load myself. In the case of the .357 they're going in an 1873 so I have to load down for that, and for the other calibers I don't necessarily have to, but I also shoot a lot and want the experience to be fun w/o a beat up shoulder. If it weren't for the fact that I want to load down, I would likely just buy factory 357/44/45LC as it's quite cheap.

[J.D. Daily]

Get an C&R (FFL 3) FFL license.  Ammo can be shipped directly to you.  This an additional benefit to purchasing 50 + year old firearms without going through an FFL & waiting periods.  I learned this a couple of years ago from a Californian in a discussion thread on Quora.  This is how sponsored completion shooters living in CA have dealt with Gunmagedon ammo restrictions.

 

[Tallboy]

2 minutes ago, J.D. Daily said:

Get an C&R (FFL 3) FFL license.  Ammo can be shipped directly to you.  This an additional benefit to purchasing 50 + year old firearms without going through an FFL & waiting periods.  I learned this a couple of years ago from a Californian in a discussion thread on Quora.  This is how sponsored completion shooters living in CA have dealt with Gunmagedon ammo restrictions.

 

Yes I also planned on doing that at some point, just not a big priority at the moment. It's a mild annoyance to have to pick it up at an FFL and pay a fee, but I can deal with that while I sort out the bigger issues.

Most importantly, is that I need to buy ammo which is loaded down, and store bought cowboy loads are either in very short supply or overly expensive.

 

Lastly, I want to shoot a lot of 30-30, 45-70 and the cost for that is insane unless I reload, so that is the other primary reason.

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Tallboy said:

 

I mean trust me, I've seriously considered it. I just literally have no real room to put anything unless it's outside in a wood shed. I guess I can haul everything to my garage every time I reload but that just doesn't seem like something I'm going to want to do once familiarity sets in.

 

Can I load all the following cartridges with a single press? That part I never really understood. I know I need different dies...

 

• .357 mag
• .44 mag
• 45 LC
• 30-30
• 45-70

I could buy factory loads for 30-30 probably as I'm not sure cowboy loads are possible with that?

 

The rest I would want to load myself. In the case of the .357 they're going in an 1873 so I have to load down for that, and for the other calibers I don't necessarily have to, but I also shoot a lot and want the experience to be fun w/o a beat up shoulder. If it weren't for the fact that I want to load down, I would likely just buy factory 357/44/45LC as it's quite cheap.

 

Short answer, yes...you can reload all of the calibers listed with a single press. IMO, the best press suited toward reloading both rifle and pistol is the Dillon 550. Once your dies are set/adjusted in the loading block, change out calibers as desired. 

 

The cost return is really based upon how many rounds you shoot. If you are shooting 50 rounds a month, it probably will not be worth the cost in the short run. If you are shooting 200 - 500 rounds a month, your saving would be substantial over the long run. 

 

At present costs, a .38 spl round will cost about twenty two cents a round, assuming that you have used brass available. Larger calibers will cost more. It's pretty simple math to figure out if reloading is (monetarily) worth the cost in the long run. For peace of mind, it's priceless.

[Eyesa Horg]

18 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Short answer, yes...you can reload all of the calibers listed with a single press. IMO, the best press suited toward reloading both rifle and pistol is the Dillon 550. Once your dies are set/adjusted in the loading block, change out calibers as desired. 

 

The cost return is really based upon how many rounds you shoot. If you are shooting 50 rounds a month, it probably will not be worth the cost in the short run. If you are shooting 200 - 500 rounds a month, your saving would be substantial over the long run. 

 

At present costs, a .38 spl round will cost about ten cents a round, assuming that you have used brass available. Larger calibers will cost more. It's pretty simple math to figure out if reloading is (monetarily) worth the cost in the long run. For peace of mind, it's priceless.

Nowadays the primers alone are about 10¢ a piece  Even factory cowboy is hotter than most load. When 45C were and still are going for 40 to 50 bucks box, I was loading my own for under 7 a box. But primers were reasonable. I reload so I have ammo when I need it, not when somebody has it in stock.

Not sure if you can get 30-30 for cowboy as they need to have lead pills. Most factory stuff I see is jacketed. 

You could start on the cheap with a single stage machine and a set of dies for what you shoot the most or find the most difficult to find.

[Tallboy]

16 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Short answer, yes...you can reload all of the calibers listed with a single press. IMO, the best press suited toward reloading both rifle and pistol is the Dillon 550. Once your dies are set/adjusted in the loading block, change out calibers as desired. 

 

The cost return is really based upon how many rounds you shoot. If you are shooting 50 rounds a month, it probably will not be worth the cost in the short run. If you are shooting 200 - 500 rounds a month, your saving would be substantial over the long run. 

 

At present costs, a .38 spl round will cost about ten cents a round, assuming that you have used brass available. Larger calibers will cost more. It's pretty simple math to figure out if reloading is (monetarily) worth the cost in the long run. For peace of mind, it's priceless.

 

I shoot ~200 rounds a week, although I would shoot more if I had more on hand. I try to drag it out. That's with .357, but I will be shooting really all the calibers combined that much (probably ~1000 total/month)

[Tallboy]

2 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Nowadays the primers alone are about 10¢ a piece  Even factory cowboy is hotter than most load. When 45C were and still are going for 40 to 50 bucks box, I was loading my own for under 7 a box. But primers were reasonable. I reload so I have ammo when I need it, not when somebody has it in stock.

Not sure if you can get 30-30 for cowboy as they need to have lead pills. Most factory stuff I see is jacketed. 

You could start on the cheap with a single stage machine and a set of does for what you shoot the most or find the most difficult to find.

I should clarify one thing when I say "cowboy" considering I'm on SASS forum. I only attend cowboy shooting once every 2 months, but I go to the range 2 times a week. So really what I should say is "comfort" loads (shooting at 50/100 yards for about 100 rounds a range session). Over time I just want lighter recoil to make it more pleasant. It's not like I specifically need ammo that comforms to all the cowboy shooting rules, as I do that very rarely. They're coming out of cowboy guns though which is why I mentioned that (1873, 1866, 1892, 1894)

[Cypress Sun]

38 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Nowadays the primers alone are about 10¢ a piece  Even factory cowboy is hotter than most load. When 45C were and still are going for 40 to 50 bucks box, I was loading my own for under 7 a box. But primers were reasonable. I reload so I have ammo when I need it, not when somebody has it in stock.

Not sure if you can get 30-30 for cowboy as they need to have lead pills. Most factory stuff I see is jacketed. 

You could start on the cheap with a single stage machine and a set of dies for what you shoot the most or find the most difficult to find.

 

Oops, quite correct for todays pricing. I'll edit the post to reflect  that it's around twenty two cents a round if you have the brass.

[Eyesa Horg]

Just gotta love it, don't ya. There getting us little by little.

Hopefully primers will come down once everyone gets stocked up and they aren't flying off the shelves. Ellie & I can get thru at least one more season before the stock gets below comfort. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

6 hours ago, Tallboy said:

Fair enough, although she said she doesn't ship to CA... any other suggestions?

Start reloading and get out of Commiefornia

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

4 hours ago, Tallboy said:

I should clarify one thing when I say "cowboy" considering I'm on SASS forum. I only attend cowboy shooting once every 2 months, but I go to the range 2 times a week. So really what I should say is "comfort" loads (shooting at 50/100 yards for about 100 rounds a range session). Over time I just want lighter recoil to make it more pleasant. It's not like I specifically need ammo that comforms to all the cowboy shooting rules, as I do that very rarely. They're coming out of cowboy guns though which is why I mentioned that (1873, 1866, 1892, 1894)

As long as you are out there shooting....

Good for you!

Shoot whatever makes you happy and the experience is comfortable.

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

[DeaconKC]

If you have room for a Stanley Workmate, you can reload yourself easily. Get a Lee Turret Press kit, screw that onto a 1x6 and clamp that to the Workmate when you need to load. That will be fairly easy to stow when not in use. The turret press will allow you to start out as a single stage so you can get comfortable with loading. Yes you will eventually want a progressive press, but they are awkward to learn on.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

10 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

If you have room for a Stanley Workmate, you can reload yourself easily. Get a Lee Turret Press kit, screw that onto a 1x6 and clamp that to the Workmate when you need to load. That will be fairly easy to stow when not in use. The turret press will allow you to start out as a single stage so you can get comfortable with loading. Yes you will eventually want a progressive press, but they are awkward to learn on.

And with the turret press, having a few extra (inexpensive) turrets, one for each set of dies, allows you to change caliber in a few seconds.  

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

5 hours ago, Tallboy said:

 

I mean trust me, I've seriously considered it. I just literally have no real room to put anything unless it's outside in a wood shed. I guess I can haul everything to my garage every time I reload but that just doesn't seem like something I'm going to want to do once familiarity sets in.

 

Can I load all the following cartridges with a single press? That part I never really understood. I know I need different dies...

Some presses (Dillon SDB) use proprietary dies in pistol calibers only. Most other presses can handle both rifle and pistol cartridges using appropriate dies. Some systems you remove/replace dies for each caliber, some dies are mounted in a changeable toolhead, others use various mounting systems. Choose which makes the most sense to you.

The primer seater cups come in two sizes, large and small. Small primers are the same size standard, magnum and small rifle. Large primers are the same circumference but different heights. Large pistol is shorter than large rifle though both use the same seater. Most presses come with both size seaters and if needed they are very available.

Choice of standard vs magnum varies depending on powder, expected use, the reloading manual used and availability.

 

• .357 mag - small pistol (I use small pistol magnum)
• .44 mag - large pistol (I use large pistol magnum)
• 45 LC - large pistol (I use standard large pistol)
• 30-30 - large rifle (I use standard large rifle)
• 45-70 - large rifle (I use standard large rifle)

I could buy factory loads for 30-30 probably as I'm not sure cowboy loads are possible with that?

Plenty of cowboy shooters use downloaded 30-30 for long range. When you get around to it just ask

The rest I would want to load myself. In the case of the .357 they're going in an 1873 so I have to load down for that, and for the other calibers I don't necessarily have to, but I also shoot a lot and want the experience to be fun w/o a beat up shoulder. If it weren't for the fact that I want to load down, I would likely just buy factory 357/44/45LC as it's quite cheap.

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

[Cholla]

I am going to go a different route. I recommend anyone starting get a good O-press. Sportsman's Warehouse has the RCBS set with almost everything you need to get started. Starting out you need to take your time and be deliberate in every action. A progressive press is going to have a lot of attention that a beginner shouldn't have to deal with. One of the guys that took me under his wing when I first started in CAS told me the faster you make ammo, the faster you make mistakes. If you expand into larger rounds, the O-press with have the strength to do the job without flexing like a C-press or turret press. Once you crawl, then walk, and get the process down on a simple press, then think about running with a progressive press, if you need it. I find doing each step by hand puts me in a zen which is enjoyable.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/reloading-equipment-supplies/reloading-presses-kits/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-master-reloading-kit/p/1681149

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

My suggestion echos one of the other answers. Tomorrow go to your local SW, lgs  Bass Pro/Cabellas or whoever is open and buy one reloading manual from a major manufacturer. Read the section about reloading a couple of times and make notes of your questions. All the advice you have gotten , and will receive ,will make a lot more sense. This will require minimum investment, will be usable for years to come and did I mention minimum investment? You can do it tomorrow. 

Come on back with more questions, enjoy.

 

Imis

[Tallboy]

1 hour ago, Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 said:

My suggestion echos one of the other answers. Tomorrow go to your local SW, lgs  Bass Pro/Cabellas or whoever is open and buy one reloading manual from a major manufacturer. Read the section about reloading a couple of times and make notes of your questions. All the advice you have gotten , and will receive ,will make a lot more sense. This will require minimum investment, will be usable for years to come and did I mention minimum investment? You can do it tomorrow. 

Come on back with more questions, enjoy.

 

Imis

I bought a Lyman edition a few days ago after I read this thread.

I suppose question number 1 is it seems this book is almost like a recipe book specific to Lyman, is that correct? For some reason I thought all reloading formulas were 'shared' but this book makes it seem like this company specifically came up with these loads, and each manual/book maintainer comes up with their own formulas/combinations. Is that correct?

Is there a book I should have that is better than this one? I will be loading 100% for lever gun cartridges mentioned.

[Rip Snorter]

Been loading a long time.  Have books from every major component manufacturer.  Though I have my favorite loads, I check and cross reference every new load across the library.  Works well for me. You might like it as well.