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WTC: Misses or misses and SOG


Widder, SASS #59054

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During the course of fire, a shooter starts off with rifle/SG and basically has a bad stage with long guns.

Rifle jams up with multiple rounds left inside and SG run goes rough.     

 

Shooter then starts to engage the pistol targets and decides..... 'what the heck' and decides to dump most of his

pistol rounds in the dirt as fast as possible (down range) just to finish the stage.

 

Would you consider this action with penalties only for all the misses or would you think this would justify a

SOG penalty, along with all the misses?

 

..........Widder

 

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IMO...just the MISSES for the unfired rounds in the rifle and the revolver misses.

I don't see any "competitive advantage" (lower score or faster time) for dumping rounds at 5 seconds per shot. 

Quote

A “Spirit of the Game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (e.g., taking the penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions).

SHB p.11

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Sounds like the shooter consciously gave up on the stage (and probably the match too), so it probably doesn't much matter what penalties get assigned.   I wouldn't assign an additional SOG.  In our relaxed club, we'd probably all just have a good laugh. 

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i will defer to PWB. I also do not see a “competitive advantage” but a case could be made for “unsportsmanlike behavior” with a MDQ per page 22 of SHB. Our sport has the potential to be very dangerous and a shooter frustrated enough by a rough stage to take the route of deliberately dumping rounds in the dirt is borderline out of control and needs at least a timeout. 
IMHO

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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2 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

i will defer to PWB. I also do not see a “competitive advantage” but a case could be made for “unsportsmanlike behavior” with a MDQ per page 22 of SHB. Our sport has the potential to be very dangerous and a shooter frustrated enough by a rough stage to take the route of deliberately dumping rounds in the dirt is borderline out of control and needs at least a timeout. 
IMHO

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

You've got a good point there, however I guess you'd need to be there to see how he actually acted. Did he just want to end the stage or was he actually out of control with anger? Lots of variables possible here.

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Just now, Eyesa Horg said:

You've got a good point there, however I guess you'd need to be there to see how he actually acted. Did he just want to end the stage or was he actually out of control with anger? Lots of variables possible here.

Agreed. 
I was obviously not there, so full context is unavailable to me. That is why I said a case could be made. I would not give the shooter the MDQ automatically without further info. 

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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26 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

i will defer to PWB. I also do not see a “competitive advantage” but a case could be made for “unsportsmanlike behavior” with a MDQ per page 22 of SHB. Our sport has the potential to be very dangerous and a shooter frustrated enough by a rough stage to take the route of deliberately dumping rounds in the dirt is borderline out of control and needs at least a timeout. 
IMHO

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

It depends which dirt they fired into.  If they fired safely downrange, just to end the stage,  why ruin anybody's day further.  The Gremlins already got him.  

 

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Would they have been able to just declare "broke gun" (or just "no mas") and either not draw the gun or put it down on the table with no ammo below the hammer JUST resulting in the 10 misses?

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Sorry to disagree. 
Attitude counts for a lot IMHO.

While it is not certain that someone will react poorly in a second frustrating situation the probability does go up. Safety for all participants trumps any one persons outing and I am sure you have seen “train wrecks” seem to come in groups. 

In any case I, we, you, fellow shooters are not ruining any ones day, the shooter did that all by themselves.
just as we do not give penalties the shooter earns them. 
Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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I would consider the shooter's attitude (as mentioned previously). If he is very angry to the point of swearing and reckless, he may very well get the SOG. I have shot with a few shooters over the years that, if they start having problems, they act exactly that way; just shooting off the rounds and acting like their whole match is messed up. There is no place for that, especially at a monthly. The shooter may have a history of acting like that and an SOG may help to curb that... then again, he may not come back... which may be a positive for everyone else.

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32 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

Would they have been able to just declare "broke gun" (or just "no mas") and either not draw the gun or put it down on the table with no ammo below the hammer JUST resulting in the 10 misses?

 

That would be a DNF...scored the same as a SDQ.

REF: SHB p.24

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21 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I would consider the shooter's attitude (as mentioned previously). If he is very angry to the point of swearing and reckless, he may very well get the SOG. I have shot with a few shooters over the years that, if they start having problems, they act exactly that way; just shooting off the rounds and acting like their whole match is messed up. There is no place for that, especially at a monthly. The shooter may have a history of acting like that and an SOG may help to curb that... then again, he may not come back... which may be a positive for everyone else.

 

That seems to be a fairly common misconception, but it does not fit the criteria for a 30-second SOG penalty.

Quote

Any shooter, guest, or match official who uses foul language, is disrespectful, offensive, rude, or becomes belligerent or threatening in any manner will be disqualified from the event and, at the discretion of the Match Director, may be required to leave the property.

SHB p.12

also:

Quote

Belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct.

SHB p.22 - MATCH DQ

 

 

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Nothing in the O.P. mentioned any attitude issues, anger, profane language, disrespect, or anything else except emptying pistols in a way that inadequately aimed at and missed the targets. 

 

Misses only, and maybe some good natured kidding or consolement.  IMO, this seems a long way from a case needing attitude adjustment.  

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1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I said IF "If he is very angry to the point of swearing and reckless..." IF he is at that point, not that he had been that way.

Just that I have seen it, so

 

That's still not an SOG violation.
 

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   I've seen this happen a few times. It's no good. No good for the shooter and no good for other shooters or spectators at the match. 

  Now I'm not one of these "stage monitors" that you see always rubber necking looking for a call to make, but dang. I don't know if as the TO I wouldn't ask, "why not just lay your guns down and take a DNF penalty for the stage"? As soon as they said they didn't want to get the 150 second penalty but didnt want to shoot the rest of the stage it would open up the possibility for a SOG in my opinion because there WOULD be a competitive advantage to just shooting in the dirt vs taking the dnf. Same as the shooter who gets a P on the first firearm string and just dumps the rest of the rounds on one target that says its faster and I can only get one P. 

  I personally think the OP should be a punishable offense. Obviously there's no competitive advantage so no SOG without detective work and a very circuitous gotcha question regarding a dnf. However; there's no reason a vote couldn't make a new rule. We could call it something really demeaning like the pacifier penalty, the tar and feather penalty, or simply "Widder".

  

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OH NO........ this ain't me I was talking about.   It was one of those 'what if' situations that TW and I were discussing because we

have witness various situations as mentioned in the OP.

 

..........Widder

 

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3 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Agreed. 
I was obviously not there, so full context is unavailable to me. That is why I said a case could be made. I would not give the shooter the MDQ automatically without further info. 

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

Hope you didn't misunderstand. I meant you as in anybody to actually observe the actual event.

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3 minutes ago, Hendo said:

All the misses and a P for not engaging the pistol targets in the proper order.

 

That was not specified in the OP...and MISSES cannot cause a PROCEDURAL.

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That was not specified in the OP...and MISSES cannot cause a PROCEDURAL.

I know, I was just giving the feller the benefit of the doubt that he was having a really bad day.

 

:ph34r:

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5 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

OH NO........ this ain't me I was talking about.   It was one of those 'what if' situations that TW and I were discussing because we

have witness various situations as mentioned in the OP.

 

..........Widder

 

You better watch TW! :o

 

Randy

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3 hours ago, Hendo said:

All the misses and a P for not engaging the pistol targets in the proper order.

Is it possible to miss targets in the wrong order?  

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30 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Is it possible to miss targets in the wrong order?  

 

Yes...but the penalty(ies) are MISSES ONLY.

 

REF: MISS FLOW CHART SHB p.40

(Go down the RIGHT side)

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6 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

OH NO........ this ain't me I was talking about.   It was one of those 'what if' situations that TW and I were discussing because we

have witness various situations as mentioned in the OP.

..........Widder

 

The question has been answered given the information provided in the OP "as written".

 

If y'all want to continue adding "but what if?" commentary, as well as posting MISinformation regarding application of the rules based on conjecture and/or assumptions,

START a NEW THREAD!

 

 

 

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